Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

COS18

Old 15th Sep 2018, 08:25
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
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Dysfunctional ?

Originally Posted by Tea time View Post
The AOA has been a disfunctional body since 99 , it has no teeth because the membership is weak , too many self serving interests . If the pilot body for once stood together and said screw cos18 . This is what we are demanding instead and be prepared to walk it would be done in a couple of weeks . If all the trainers resigned with total support of the members it would add even more pressure work , but in that instance anyone taking a training position would be dealt with and I donít mean a letter
Sorry I was dreaming that we actually had a Union fit for purpose
Whose dysfunctional, the self serving AOA or the self serving members (or non-members)?
You get what you vote (or not) for... then you pay the price.
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Old 15th Sep 2018, 08:30
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Australia
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Things have changed in Hong Kong there are thousands of locals who want to join CX/KA now, it's taken decades but Swire knows this, they don't NEED expats anymore local cadets are the future, why do you think the recruitment department has now gone to HR, eventually the pay will equal that of a policeman or fireman. Expats will continue the fight but eventually the union will fold, I'm guessing 10 years and it'll be over.
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Old 15th Sep 2018, 08:35
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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10 years? It's over NOW. No further debate needed. The only people attracted to CX now will be the very young/inexperienced, or the desperate. It seems that is perfectly acceptable to CX. For those here between 28 and 45, you are MAD to stay a day longer if you can get out. CX has now said that C scale is the new A scale, and is a target. Anyone remaining will find their career value, security and stability eroded, threatened and crushed. CX management no long care about experience, safety, legacy, reputation or outcome. It is over. The only question now is who goes down with this sinking ship, and with it any hope for their families and careers.
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Old 15th Sep 2018, 08:50
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by Air Profit View Post
10 years? It's over NOW. No further debate needed. The only people attracted to CX now will be the very young/inexperienced, or the desperate. It seems that is perfectly acceptable to CX. For those here between 28 and 45, you are MAD to stay a day longer if you can get out. CX has now said that C scale is the new A scale, and is a target. Anyone remaining will find their career value, security and stability eroded, threatened and crushed. CX management no long care about experience, safety, legacy, reputation or outcome. It is over. The only question now is who goes down with this sinking ship, and with it any hope for their families and careers.
Agreed a 1000 times over BUT I go to work most days with young pilots saying "it might get better once we get thru this rough patch". They haven't a clue. I don't engage with them anymore. We are all grown ups and make our own choices in life. Taking advice from old grumpies doesn't fit the mix these days. They will soon learn but by then ( I mean now ) it is too late.
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Old 15th Sep 2018, 08:54
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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The "old grumpies" are actually the only ones who can provide perspective as to the never ending lies of this management. They have seen the entire decline of CX, and are best positioned to advise those less experienced as to the reality. It is up to that middle group of 25-45 yrs olds who can have another career (with a real "C)) to leave while they still can. It will NEVER improve at CX. COS18 has stripped away any hope of that (and if not, please explain why?). CX is done, toast, forked, ed, finished and buried. Only those who can't see reality will try to convince themselves otherwise. Get out NOW. It IS finished.
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Old 15th Sep 2018, 14:06
  #86 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 3,110
I remember as a young FO with (if I remember correctly) around 5000 hours I applied to Cathay. To me it was the "premier" airline in the world to work for. I had travelled to Hong Kong several times with my parents and loved the place ( I still do)...and I really really wanted to work for Cathay. Alas..it was not to be ...the first interview knocked me out because I did not know what engines ( the then brand new 747-300) had..or something along those lines...I knew when I did not know the answers to questions like these, I would be going no further. But I figured...Cathay has the luxury of selecting the best...the best of the best...so if you dont meet the grade , you dont.

Even in the early 2000's as I overnighted in Hong Kong as a now B777 Captain, I still looked at Cathay aircraft and thought....I would love to work for this airline...

What the hell has happened????
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Old 15th Sep 2018, 15:20
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 98
Management pulled the plug out and it went down the drain
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 00:25
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
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Originally Posted by Frank W. Abagnale View Post
From a pilotís perspective CX was already finished with the introduction of C-Scale.
Think you mean B scale.
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 01:47
  #89 (permalink)  
its£5perworddammit
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Originally Posted by Frank W. Abagnale View Post
No, I meant B-Scale.

B-Scale with full housing was still a good package to accumulate enough money/assets for retirement, whereas C-Scale doesnít.
You are just pretending to be that oblivious right?
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 04:57
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 211
Originally Posted by Dan Buster View Post
Trainers have GOT to walk over this. Enough is enough.
Trainers are company men. They take the extra pay and implement the company policies for training and checking. Some of them bad mouth the company on the flight deck, but this is just talk. They keep on doing what the company tells them to. Their silly little letter of complaint will only confirm for the investigators when a jet crashes, that they knew the company has cut too far but they still carried on training, so are culpable.

No point expecting these company men to do anything for the profession.
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 06:03
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by controlledrest View Post
Trainers are company men. They take the extra pay and implement the company policies for training and checking. Some of them bad mouth the company on the flight deck, but this is just talk. They keep on doing what the company tells them to. Their silly little letter of complaint will only confirm for the investigators when a jet crashes, that they knew the company has cut too far but they still carried on training, so are culpable.

No point expecting these company men to do anything for the profession.
Nor can we expect the elected AOA reps to do anything either. So what's your strategy ?
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 06:09
  #92 (permalink)  
STW
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Hong Kong
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The general wrath and fury about COS 18 is not only useless, it also is missing the core of the problem. Without much hope, I will still try to offer an alternative viewpoint.

I am of course fully aware of the minority position I am representing in this forum, so you don't have to share my opinion, nor do I expect it, but if you please could possibly refrain from the usual mechanical insults that would be fantastic. I am neither management, nor do I believe my viewpoint actually supports such an assumption.

The only reason of existence of a company in a free market is to make a profit. There is no other purpose. By definition, any company that doesn't attempt to minimise costs will suffer. It is one of the core principles of business in any free market environment. Paying more than necessary for any goods or services would not only be complacent, it would be unsustainable and therefore irresponsible. If you don't agree, ask yourself: when was the last time you did voluntarily pay more than the market price? And please be careful: paying more than the market price does not meanyou boughtsomething expensive or especially precious to you, it means that you paid deliberately more for something you could have bought in the same or comparative quality elsewhere. That is the meaning of paying above the market price. Think about that for a moment, did you ever do that and if so why? Additionally, when you purchase something, anything, do you ever look at the assumed costs of the seller? As an example, imagine you want to buy a car, and the two models you like are different in price, but the same quality. Would you consider to buy the more expensive model because you reckon the production cost ( not the quality) is higher? I will get back to this point later.

All our customers shop around of course, they constantly compare the price and the product, then they make a decision. All shareholders of every company constantly monitor costs, if they or some consultant identify misspending the management will have to explain it. This is part of the " invisible hand" system immortalised by Adam Smith, it is an inseparable and vital part of our society, our way of life. So how do you know if costs are too high? What is the benchmark? The benchmark is indirectly what competitors pay, but more precisely it is what is required to get the goods or services you want. I assume COS 18 is deemed to fulfil that requirement by its creators. I personally do not know if that is true, nor do I care much, the market will decide, not the managers nor me. In other words, if you have the opinion the price CX is willing to pay is not enough you can sit back and relax, if you are right time will tell. I want to repeat what i said above: only a company that cares about costs will survive. I personally want CX to survive, not because I like it so much here, but because I would dislike it more at HK Express or China Southern. You might have a different opinion on that, but chances are that you too want Cathay to survive or you would not be much interested in this topic in the first place. If you donít like Cathay much anymore, you think you can get more money elsewhere and you donít care about its survival, then there is logically no other solution then to leave. If you think COS 18 is not the market price then there is also no argument, we just need to wait and see. In both cases you can stop reading now.


I can only think of three possible arguments against paying market prices.

First, you think you would get better pilots for more money and this is somehow important to you. This is difficult to discuss, because the quality of a pilot is not easy to quantify and safety statistics are by definition only looking backwards. I think the absolute pay is not very relevant, and I also think it is perfectly ok to employ cadets with no experience and train them on the job. I donít see any differences regarding motivation between a new S/O and an old CPT, actually I see more frustration and less interest for aviation in older colleagues, myself included. Other airlines in HK pay even less and donít fall out of the sky either. And even if they fall out of the sky, unless it becomes are regular habit the consumer doesnít care. hard to swallow, I know, but the odds of dying in an aircraft are just too small to be factor anymore. If you differ in this point, I canít really argue, except that I would point out that obviously CX has a different viewpoint and it is very unlikely this will change, and also that it is an industry-wide practise to employ cadets. My assumption is that the safety argument is not the real reason for all the excitement, but if it is honestly your main concern, fair enough, but remember this next time you book full fare with a low-cost carrier for yourself please.

Second, you think it is unfair or even a disgrace, because HK is so expensive or the job bears such a big responsibility, you think it is making the ďunbornĒ pay , you feel it is a ďrace to the bottomĒ etc and anyway soon after joining people will leave again. This is a very common and (very ) emotional argument I hear on the line and read in this forum, and I have not a clue why anyone would be concerned about that. If you think the pay is not fair or justified, then donít accept it. Simple. Everyone starting this career now, in 2018, must be aware of the clear downward trend of the industry. I donít know the individual goals of any cadet,their financial background, their alternatives, nothing. I donít know what a HKPA recipient was planning or thinking when he or she joined. I have empathy, but my position is very clear: when i joined I never expected an improvement, I knew the trend was against me, I knew A scale was gone. I donít judge anyone on HKPA, but at the same time I canít take any responsibility. As a matter of fact, I donít see how I even should be able to vote on their package. Why should I? I donít know anything about them and I give them the benefit of the doubt, I assume they knew what they were doing, had sound reasons back then when they joined. Now, again, if they misjudged the cost of HK, housing, quality of life etc, then so be it, it is part of life. If the company suffers from attrition, so be it. You make good and bad decisions, but these decisions are up to the individual, no company can make that decision for you and pay more just because they think it is ďfairĒ. Most of us, myself included, changed jobs multiple times, simply because it didnít work out as planned. There is no shame in that.

Third, and I strongly assume this is actually the real reason behind the anger and opposition, you think it has implications on you, on your contract. Maybe it has, maybe it hasnít, nobody knows for sure. I would argue that Cathay has seen a many pay scales and e.g. A scale died of natural extinction. If they could or if they can cut our pay they will do so. It is totally irrelevant if at the time of decision other pay scales do already exist. You can create a new one anytime.

COS 18 is not an independent decision by some evil manager, it is a reflection of the industry. Again, if you differ here, then please check the numbers of our direct competitors, and see above. Some think that it is a ďpilots marketĒ ( strangely even after a considerable period of unemployment), but I think the truth is that most of us know that we would suffer if we would change jobs, at least financially. I know I would. It is understandable that this puts us in a precarious position and the fact that since decades the very same people complain about CX in this very forum additionally testifies the sad reality: it is very hard to leave CX . After having invested so much, with a cruel seniority system, all those sacrifices, all the humiliation in training etc etc. I feel you, and I feel the same. But a new pay scale is not the problem: the problem is the unrealistic expectation of an improvement of your conditions after you joined.

The answer canít be to get distracted and emotionally wound up if the company is adjusting prices to match the market for new joiners. It is in our interest to have an employer that cares about costs, and i am not joking. Yes, I know, fuel hedging. But what does that change? If anything at all it enforces my point, profit is in our interest, and to achieve profit costs need to be competitive. Just one example: if all HKPA staff would be on B scale that would translate into about 1 Billion ( and counting) additional cost. And yet many do see introduction of C scale as a watershed moment. I do too, but for the better.

It is a totally different story to cut wages for existing staff, cutting packages of those already committed would destroy trust of all employees and lead inevitably to harsh reactions, simple because of what is at stake. There are legal issues, trainers would actually be directly affected and react, nobody would join and be able to do any planning, etc. But to offer a pay package X and to see if there are enough takers is part of our economy. I donít blame CX for it, I donít like it, but I understand it.

I fear we are letting ourselves distracted, sleepwalking into the abyss, by not focusing. What is really important right now and here? Is it really the possibility of SOís joining in 2019 not staying until retirement?
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 07:18
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
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By "AOA reps" I guess you mean the elected GC.

Trust me, they will do whatever the membership wants them to do.

Take an informal poll next time you have a chance, United, and ask how many of your fellow workers are actually willing to increase the industrial pressure?
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 08:15
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by OK4Wire View Post
By "AOA reps" I guess you mean the elected GC.

Trust me, they will do whatever the membership wants them to do.

Take an informal poll next time you have a chance, United, and ask how many of your fellow workers are actually willing to increase the industrial pressure?
"They will do whatever the membership wants them to do "!!!!!!!!!!!
The membership want leadership not sheep. If they can't offer some form of guidance and leadership then resign and make way for others willing to take up the fight. This is not the time for well wishing pen pushers. This is a time for action men/women.
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 10:05
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 132
The trainers have the real power here. They could resign from training and bring the company to its knees but instead they will happily train their D-scale replacements. The ones that don't have their heads buried in the sand have them shoved up managements a$$es.
WAKE UP!!! You are going to get a sign or be fired contract within the next 5 years when the numbers look favorable to the company, just as they did in 1999.

You trainers have to be the most selfish or stupid people in the company.
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 10:42
  #96 (permalink)  
okm
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 24
Spot on Dilbert.
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 12:07
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: hong kong
Posts: 178
Guess you're a trainer in waiting Dilbert
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Old 16th Sep 2018, 13:00
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 132
No FUB, I have too much self respect to stoop that low. You keep on training though, I'm sure all your friends and relatives are very impressed.
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 01:28
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 22
So, so far the view is:
KA pilots should do something
Trainers should do something
GC should do something
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Old 17th Sep 2018, 06:06
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by Freehills View Post
So, so far the view is:
KA pilots should do something
Trainers should do something
GC should do something
The HKAOA and DPA should do something and yet not a constructive word from either. The typhoon has passed boys. Time to actually come out of your dugouts and do something for the members who elected you.
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