Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

COS18

Old 12th Sep 2018, 17:07
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,917
What’s obvious to me is that this new package will further lower the operating and experience standards among SOs and FOs. Over time, this will bleed into the captain ranks. This is what C&Ters should be really concerned about. Will it be your name on the certificate and file of these pilots when the inevitable accident occurs? Honestly, do you want that on your conscience? Take the industrial out of it. Are you actually willing to lower yourself this way? If the answer is yes, then you are no better than any of those pilot and non-pilot managers working on the third and ninth floors.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 17:12
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 299
Bases are dead too. No point in having to comply with labour laws, when someone can have really cheap pilots in Hong Kong. Next NTC, early retirement packages to get more pilots on D scale.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 18:55
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 505
The company will have done it's homework and there will be hundreds who will apply even on COS18. All this was said about D Scalers and there are hundreds of them flying with us now. If you live in a country with a surplus of pilots and a passport that limits your travels then Hong Kong is one rare opportunity to get out and fly jets. For others they can get their pilots wings and live with mum and dad back in HKG so the cost of living isn't a factor. A recruitment ban. How's that going to work? CX does the recruitment not the AOA. A training ban ? Even AOA members have ignored that directive with absolutely no penalties applied. 4 more members moving up to STC on the A fleet this week alone. With Jet and Air India bankrupt there are thousands of pilots looking for a lifeline and the proposed starting FO pay scale is DOUBLE a Jet Airways captains pay. The sub continent will supply the pilots CX needs and miraculously bases will be offered in Mumbai and Delhi for Indian passport holders only ( of course ). Others talk of strike action. Never in a million years will that happen here. KA is being absorbed and will exist for AOC purposes only within 3 years. The task set by the Board to the new DFO is to merge the seniority lists by the end of his tenure. COS18 is phase 1. KA and CX pilots to act as one body. Really. When the CX captains were denied their 13th month did we see the KA pilots suggest a united front.No way. They took their money and banked it. KA pilots are on their own. The kid gloves are off and their cosy "flying club" is no more. They now face the full wrath of CX management and it will be lambs to the slaughter. This is the reality we find ourselves in.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 19:13
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 578
The sound of all those ‘B’ Scale pigeons coming home to roost must be deafening... the very same guys who undermined the ‘A’ Scale contract (after all, the company told us that they’d already recruited an entire year’s pilot requirement on the contract that we wouldn’t even contemplate) now whine and bleat about the very same thing happening to them, as we told them at the time. Suck it up.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 19:16
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by Kitsune View Post
The sound of all those ‘B’ Scale pigeons coming home to roost must be deafening... the very same guys who undermined the ‘A’ Scale contract (after all, the company told us that they’d already recruited an entire year’s pilot requirement on the contract that we wouldn’t even contemplate) now whine and bleat about the very same thing happening to them, as we told them at the time. Suck it up.
Kitsune you are so right.
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 19:33
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 296
A recent point raised this morning, IS IT OVER?

Either the AOA takes positive action or we simply become a membership with insurance benifits.

Are the laws in Hong Kong simply beyond western rules?
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Old 12th Sep 2018, 21:57
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 51
Posts: 17
60K a year education. Good luck with that. Example one. Discovery Bay International School. A primary school. 55K entrance fee and 12000 per month per child. Do not come here if you have children or plan to be a parent.
You have been warned.
Rent for small family, not lux, not much change from 30 000 per month, after you have paid your two months deposit, and one months commission to letting agent.
You have been warned.
Then you have to pay utilities, buy food and maybe save some money. You can not sustain a western style lifestyle in Hong Kong on this package. And commuting is not a plan. Its a short term thing that some pilots do when children out grow Hong Kong education system. And believe me most of them do by year 8.
Note I don't post very often, but when I do I mean it.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 01:28
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Honky
Posts: 169
And yet you can still be an associate member after brining this COS in!!!!
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 02:59
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,760
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
KA is being absorbed and will exist for AOC purposes only within 3 years. The task set by the Board to the new DFO is to merge the seniority lists by the end of his tenure. COS18 is phase 1. KA and CX pilots to act as one body. Really. When the CX captains were denied their 13th month did we see the KA pilots suggest a united front.No way. They took their money and banked it. KA pilots are on their own. The kid gloves are off and their cosy "flying club" is no more. They now face the full wrath of CX management and it will be lambs to the slaughter. This is the reality we find ourselves in.
Perhaps we were waiting for you to do something?

But really, think about it. What would you have us do? We were in bitter contract compliance for years and understood the limitations and never asked for your assistance. Yet you expected us to do what? What did you do?

The pilot groups are being drawn closer together yet you are doing all you can to break an emerging bond? Our trainers are stood down and we aren't in CC. Our operation is more fragile in nature and our attrition isn't far from yours. Yet you want to fracture an intuitive merging of interests? I'm not sure how representative you are of your group but you don't seem much of a battler- preferring to blame others to justify a passive position?
Gnadenburg is online now  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 03:00
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 572
Negotiations ???

A, B, C, D, E, F, G... you know the song.
The "jellyfish" strikes again Already he walks into a massive year end bonus.

Carefull, make sure you pull the stick out before you stand up.

#CXit
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 03:29
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by Gnadenburg View Post
Perhaps we were waiting for you to do something?

But really, think about it. What would you have us do? We were in bitter contract compliance for years and understood the limitations and never asked for your assistance. Yet you expected us to do what? What did you do?

The pilot groups are being drawn closer together yet you are doing all you can to break an emerging bond? Our trainers are stood down and we aren't in CC. Our operation is more fragile in nature and our attrition isn't far from yours. Yet you want to fracture an intuitive merging of interests? I'm not sure how representative you are of your group but you don't seem much of a battler- preferring to blame others to justify a passive position?
I would urge KA pilots to do SOMETHING. Your cushy contracts which you have defended quietly for the last 20 years whilst your CX colleagues got battered are coming to an end. Every aspect of your operation is being run by CX now and KA really has been reduced to CX's little sister airline that feeds the main company from China. DO SOMETHING. You have far less to loose than the CX pilots after all you have a 3 year pay deal and time to act. I wouldn't wait for the CX pilots to join you. We are spineless and worse have no union leadership to take us down any campaign or line of support for you.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 04:30
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,760
Well you are a great delegator of industrial action. I'd suggest it best not to insult the various pilot groups so as to achieve that result !
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 05:18
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 165
If you envision any career in the airline business, and have more than a couple years to go before retirement, if this isn’t a HUGE wake up call to bail ASAP I do not know what is.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 05:44
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: HK
Posts: 77
@unitedabx
We are spineless and worse have no union leadership to take us down any campaign or line of support for you.
No doubt.
When you did NOTHING after being deprived of your 13th month, you showed them exactly how weak you are as a pilot body. And now you’ve got the temerity to ask KA pilots to fight your battles for you - it’s a bit pathetic. Leadership needs to start at the top. This means you Senior Captains (whether C&T or not).

(Oh, and I’m sure that if we did something bold and then we were made an example of, you would unite behind us and defend us with the same bravado you showed your own colleagues in 2001)
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 06:06
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by BBN RADAR View Post
@unitedabx

No doubt.
When you did NOTHING after being deprived of your 13th month, you showed them exactly how weak you are as a pilot body. And now you’ve got the temerity to ask KA pilots to fight your battles for you - it’s a bit pathetic. Leadership needs to start at the top. This means you Senior Captains (whether C&T or not).

(Oh, and I’m sure that if we did something bold and then we were made an example of, you would unite behind us and defend us with the same bravado you showed your own colleagues in 2001)
You are right we at CX did nothing about the 13th month and got walked over. I am urging KA pilots NOT to do the same thing. You at least have some sort of cohesion in your ranks and union. The CX pilots have nothing. If you do nothing then you will slip into the ditch the Cx guys and girls find themselves now. Save yourselves.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 06:08
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 505
The CX pilots are on the Titanic and there is one result. KA pilots have the option not to board at Cherbourg. Your choice.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 07:03
  #57 (permalink)  
PNM
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by BBN RADAR View Post
@unitedabx

No doubt.
When you did NOTHING after being deprived of your 13th month, you showed them exactly how weak you are as a pilot body. And now you’ve got the temerity to ask KA pilots to fight your battles for you - it’s a bit pathetic. Leadership needs to start at the top. This means you Senior Captains (whether C&T or not).

(Oh, and I’m sure that if we did something bold and then we were made an example of, you would unite behind us and defend us with the same bravado you showed your own colleagues in 2001)
I'll bite. What do you suggest we should've done re. 13th month?
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 08:03
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by PNM View Post
I'll bite. What do you suggest we should've done re. 13th month?
Walked out immediately.
Your mother told you to stand up to bullies at school didn't she. Same applies here. You still might get hit but usually the bully takes the easy road and goes and bullies someone else. The CX pilots NEVER make a stand. On your next flight ask around. Even the CA's laugh at us. Pathetic bunch of prima donna's.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 08:19
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 20
KA have a one year pay deal which gave us a third year of zero pay rise but which retained our current leave scheme and rostering practices. In terms of pay, this deal expires March 31st next year but our rostering practices was re-signed for 2 years. If the company tamper with our leave scheme (not sure what COS 18 contains in terms of leave) I think they can expect a rather large exodus of pilots to begin.
Changing our leave scheme will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for KA. At that point there won't be any point in staying. Most Expat B pilots are now here by choice, they don't HAVE to be here anymore and many (mainly Australians) already commute, so the company's next move is going to be interesting.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 08:43
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by MPPCAG View Post
KA have a one year pay deal which gave us a third year of zero pay rise but which retained our current leave scheme and rostering practices. In terms of pay, this deal expires March 31st next year but our rostering practices was re-signed for 2 years. If the company tamper with our leave scheme (not sure what COS 18 contains in terms of leave) I think they can expect a rather large exodus of pilots to begin.
Changing our leave scheme will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for KA. At that point there won't be any point in staying. Most Expat B pilots are now here by choice, they don't HAVE to be here anymore and many (mainly Australians) already commute, so the company's next move is going to be interesting.
Your current rostering practices are being superceeded by CMP. CX/KA have already stated the current leave schemes are changing. In CX this has been promised for the last 5 years, so I wouldn't panic over that. Your pay deal expires next March. I would suggest you start tabling meetings now. The CX pay negotiations have been going on for over 2 years without a result and you guys in KA can expect the same treatment next time round. No agreement suits the company down to the ground and you now know their bottom line is COS18. Good luck.
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