Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

COS18

Old 12th Sep 2018, 20:57
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 53
Posts: 18
60K a year education. Good luck with that. Example one. Discovery Bay International School. A primary school. 55K entrance fee and 12000 per month per child. Do not come here if you have children or plan to be a parent.
You have been warned.
Rent for small family, not lux, not much change from 30 000 per month, after you have paid your two months deposit, and one months commission to letting agent.
You have been warned.
Then you have to pay utilities, buy food and maybe save some money. You can not sustain a western style lifestyle in Hong Kong on this package. And commuting is not a plan. Its a short term thing that some pilots do when children out grow Hong Kong education system. And believe me most of them do by year 8.
Note I don't post very often, but when I do I mean it.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 00:28
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Honky
Posts: 172
And yet you can still be an associate member after brining this COS in!!!!
Xwindldg is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 01:59
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,933
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
KA is being absorbed and will exist for AOC purposes only within 3 years. The task set by the Board to the new DFO is to merge the seniority lists by the end of his tenure. COS18 is phase 1. KA and CX pilots to act as one body. Really. When the CX captains were denied their 13th month did we see the KA pilots suggest a united front.No way. They took their money and banked it. KA pilots are on their own. The kid gloves are off and their cosy "flying club" is no more. They now face the full wrath of CX management and it will be lambs to the slaughter. This is the reality we find ourselves in.
Perhaps we were waiting for you to do something?

But really, think about it. What would you have us do? We were in bitter contract compliance for years and understood the limitations and never asked for your assistance. Yet you expected us to do what? What did you do?

The pilot groups are being drawn closer together yet you are doing all you can to break an emerging bond? Our trainers are stood down and we aren't in CC. Our operation is more fragile in nature and our attrition isn't far from yours. Yet you want to fracture an intuitive merging of interests? I'm not sure how representative you are of your group but you don't seem much of a battler- preferring to blame others to justify a passive position?
Gnadenburg is online now  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 02:00
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 688
Negotiations ???

A, B, C, D, E, F, G... you know the song.
The "jellyfish" strikes again Already he walks into a massive year end bonus.

Carefull, make sure you pull the stick out before you stand up.

#CXit
Flex88 is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 02:29
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Gnadenburg View Post
Perhaps we were waiting for you to do something?

But really, think about it. What would you have us do? We were in bitter contract compliance for years and understood the limitations and never asked for your assistance. Yet you expected us to do what? What did you do?

The pilot groups are being drawn closer together yet you are doing all you can to break an emerging bond? Our trainers are stood down and we aren't in CC. Our operation is more fragile in nature and our attrition isn't far from yours. Yet you want to fracture an intuitive merging of interests? I'm not sure how representative you are of your group but you don't seem much of a battler- preferring to blame others to justify a passive position?
I would urge KA pilots to do SOMETHING. Your cushy contracts which you have defended quietly for the last 20 years whilst your CX colleagues got battered are coming to an end. Every aspect of your operation is being run by CX now and KA really has been reduced to CX's little sister airline that feeds the main company from China. DO SOMETHING. You have far less to loose than the CX pilots after all you have a 3 year pay deal and time to act. I wouldn't wait for the CX pilots to join you. We are spineless and worse have no union leadership to take us down any campaign or line of support for you.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 03:30
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,933
Well you are a great delegator of industrial action. I'd suggest it best not to insult the various pilot groups so as to achieve that result !
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 04:18
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 267
If you envision any career in the airline business, and have more than a couple years to go before retirement, if this isnít a HUGE wake up call to bail ASAP I do not know what is.
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 04:44
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: HK
Posts: 77
@unitedabx
We are spineless and worse have no union leadership to take us down any campaign or line of support for you.
No doubt.
When you did NOTHING after being deprived of your 13th month, you showed them exactly how weak you are as a pilot body. And now you’ve got the temerity to ask KA pilots to fight your battles for you - it’s a bit pathetic. Leadership needs to start at the top. This means you Senior Captains (whether C&T or not).

(Oh, and I’m sure that if we did something bold and then we were made an example of, you would unite behind us and defend us with the same bravado you showed your own colleagues in 2001)
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 05:06
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by BBN RADAR View Post
@unitedabx

No doubt.
When you did NOTHING after being deprived of your 13th month, you showed them exactly how weak you are as a pilot body. And now youíve got the temerity to ask KA pilots to fight your battles for you - itís a bit pathetic. Leadership needs to start at the top. This means you Senior Captains (whether C&T or not).

(Oh, and Iím sure that if we did something bold and then we were made an example of, you would unite behind us and defend us with the same bravado you showed your own colleagues in 2001)
You are right we at CX did nothing about the 13th month and got walked over. I am urging KA pilots NOT to do the same thing. You at least have some sort of cohesion in your ranks and union. The CX pilots have nothing. If you do nothing then you will slip into the ditch the Cx guys and girls find themselves now. Save yourselves.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 05:08
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
The CX pilots are on the Titanic and there is one result. KA pilots have the option not to board at Cherbourg. Your choice.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 06:03
  #51 (permalink)  
PNM
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by BBN RADAR View Post
@unitedabx

No doubt.
When you did NOTHING after being deprived of your 13th month, you showed them exactly how weak you are as a pilot body. And now youíve got the temerity to ask KA pilots to fight your battles for you - itís a bit pathetic. Leadership needs to start at the top. This means you Senior Captains (whether C&T or not).

(Oh, and Iím sure that if we did something bold and then we were made an example of, you would unite behind us and defend us with the same bravado you showed your own colleagues in 2001)
I'll bite. What do you suggest we should've done re. 13th month?
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 07:03
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by PNM View Post
I'll bite. What do you suggest we should've done re. 13th month?
Walked out immediately.
Your mother told you to stand up to bullies at school didn't she. Same applies here. You still might get hit but usually the bully takes the easy road and goes and bullies someone else. The CX pilots NEVER make a stand. On your next flight ask around. Even the CA's laugh at us. Pathetic bunch of prima donna's.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 07:19
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 34
KA have a one year pay deal which gave us a third year of zero pay rise but which retained our current leave scheme and rostering practices. In terms of pay, this deal expires March 31st next year but our rostering practices was re-signed for 2 years. If the company tamper with our leave scheme (not sure what COS 18 contains in terms of leave) I think they can expect a rather large exodus of pilots to begin.
Changing our leave scheme will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for KA. At that point there won't be any point in staying. Most Expat B pilots are now here by choice, they don't HAVE to be here anymore and many (mainly Australians) already commute, so the company's next move is going to be interesting.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 07:43
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by MPPCAG View Post
KA have a one year pay deal which gave us a third year of zero pay rise but which retained our current leave scheme and rostering practices. In terms of pay, this deal expires March 31st next year but our rostering practices was re-signed for 2 years. If the company tamper with our leave scheme (not sure what COS 18 contains in terms of leave) I think they can expect a rather large exodus of pilots to begin.
Changing our leave scheme will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for KA. At that point there won't be any point in staying. Most Expat B pilots are now here by choice, they don't HAVE to be here anymore and many (mainly Australians) already commute, so the company's next move is going to be interesting.
Your current rostering practices are being superceeded by CMP. CX/KA have already stated the current leave schemes are changing. In CX this has been promised for the last 5 years, so I wouldn't panic over that. Your pay deal expires next March. I would suggest you start tabling meetings now. The CX pay negotiations have been going on for over 2 years without a result and you guys in KA can expect the same treatment next time round. No agreement suits the company down to the ground and you now know their bottom line is COS18. Good luck.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 07:46
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 891
We are living/working in an "Alice in Wonderland" bizzaro-world. This weeks Flight International has an editorial, and two articles stating that there is a critical shortage of pilots, and that even Boeing is advocating a serious effort to provide pilot training. The sub headline in the main article, "Shortage of experienced cockpit crew will likely drive up wages at mainline operators into the next decade". I guess we are no longer a mainline operator. Frankly, we are no longer much of anything at all, other than a sick joke. Well, what are WE going to do about it? Most sensibly, we should all now plan on leaving, as this management is incapable of understanding the reality of our profession, and will ultimately take down the airline, and the careers of those foolish enough to stick around.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 07:54
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 688
Comfortably Numb

Relax, itíl only hurt till the Jellyfish or his sucessor impose E scales.

Anyone who even implies CX will bargain in good faith or better yet bargain at all needs a 25+ year history lesson.
This IS the reality and itís got the same flavour as ďabused wife syndromĒ, you just keep coming back for more ‼️
Flex88 is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2018, 08:11
  #57 (permalink)  
PNM
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Walked out immediately.
Your mother told you to stand up to bullies at school didn't she. Same applies here. You still might get hit but usually the bully takes the easy road and goes and bullies someone else. The CX pilots NEVER make a stand. On your next flight ask around. Even the CA's laugh at us. Pathetic bunch of prima donna's.
Haha. You're funny. Thanks for the bully advice. Duly noted.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 09:32
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 51
Posts: 229
Reality is everyone is out for themselves. You know it, I know it, they know it. Even if you started to get unity starting with trainers then captains then FOs as soon as the first real shot was fired the unity would fracture in an instant. So every bad thing that has happened in your career. Every single degradation in condition has been your own fault. Accept it and move on, because this will be old news in a matter of months when the housing deal comes out. I know it, you know it and they know it that there is only one direction the housing is going. Just like this there will be no one person on this forum, in the union or anywhere else that will Challenge it. Trainers will keep on training. SO's will keep on coming. D Scale will be the new A scale in time. Accept it or move on.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 10:45
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: All over
Posts: 626
I find it completely insane that in a time of major worldwide pilot shortages, the CX ĎGroupí is cutting pilot contract terms and conditions .From a former CX manager, sadly his words ring true.... ďmarket forcesĒ. And has been said previously, if they keep coming (& they will), there will be nothing to stop this rot. Training bans, recruitment bans are important & the time for them is definitely now. No doubt about it. But donít expect any changes while supply continues to exceed demand. Resignation rates at an all time high? Sure, yes, perhaps. But how many ĎGroupí aircraft have been parked? FFS, CX are doing KA KUL, KHH & TPE Flying of late.
b.
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Old 13th Sep 2018, 11:15
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Your current rostering practices are being superceeded by CMP. CX/KA have already stated the current leave schemes are changing. In CX this has been promised for the last 5 years, so I wouldn't panic over that. Your pay deal expires next March. I would suggest you start tabling meetings now. The CX pay negotiations have been going on for over 2 years without a result and you guys in KA can expect the same treatment next time round. No agreement suits the company down to the ground and you now know their bottom line is COS18. Good luck.
KA have not stated the current leave scheme is changing. They advised the DPA that it was CX who wanted rid of it. We are all quite happy with it. It's worked fine for years. Not a good idea to get rid of it if they want industrial peace and roster stability. There have to be reasons to stay. The leave scheme definitely affects pilot retention in KA.
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