Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

COS18

Old 18th Sep 2018, 15:35
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 29
There is a lot more to a career than the time it takes to get to the left seat.

I’ll also point out that upgrading at the US carriers (and Some EU) is often delayed by choice. A very senior FO with their choice of schedules and fleet (because of the seniority system) almost always has a significantly better schedule and in some cases better pay than a junior captain.

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Old 18th Sep 2018, 17:21
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nippi
Posts: 235
Originally Posted by CaliforniaPilot View Post
It has at FedEx. LHS widebody is half that time per the last system bid. Of course, FedEx's fleet skews toward the heavy side. LHS on the 757 in under 5.
Who cares about the seat. Itís about the $$$ and lifestyle. CX can not touch the yanks.
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 05:38
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: FL370
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Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
...provide more efficient rosters for the COS18 pilots (to get their hours up), and give us the remaining rubbish...
I would have thought it would be the opposite actually. Those on COS 99/08 will get absolutely flogged, as we basically get paid the same regardless of hours (obviously no overtime though), whilst those on COS 18 will take a second 20% pay cut to fly substantially less than the target.
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 08:00
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 211
They will work the roster monthly and in real time for min cost. It wont be fair share, it won't be reasonable, it will only be about cost. Strict seniority will be the only way to see what is happening and call them on it. Fair share will only exist in name only.

Crew Control have a long history of manipulating the roster in breach of the Rostering Agreement. CMP will empower the company to really start screwing us around. Its not about us.
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 12:11
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 4,739
Exactly. COS18 pilots will not be making their hours if it costs too much. This is exactly what happens in the airlines which use this model. They will use the cheaper option first and anyone joining under COS18 needs to understand that they will probably not be making the money they have been told to expect.
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 13:59
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ...
Posts: 65
Just curious: What's the chance that Cathay will give the Singapore Airlines (SQ) game a go?

Around 2012, SQ sacked 76 expat captains. The background at the time, was something along the lines that a new "local contract" was introduced without school or housing allowance. No requirement for anyone on expat contracts to sign the new contract. Word then quietly got around that it would be a smart idea to sign if you wanted to keep the job. Those coming from 3rd world countries generally signed the local contract. By the time it was clear that anyone who hadn't signed would be chopped, the new contract was no longer on the table. SQ 76'ers of 2012 were the last ones to be let go. I might not have the facts 100% here, but it's the general gist of the story.
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 14:49
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
CX will not make the same mistake as they did with the 49'ers. It was a massive PR defeat for the company worldwide which sadly had deadly consequences for 3 of our colleagues. Whilst you could argue CX Management does'nt learn from it's mistakes. That is one mistake they will never repeat. SAS is grounding flights due lack of crew. Norwegian has just added a sign on bonus for all type rated pilots. Jet2 will offer a type rating for free and BA are about to embark on their most ambitious recruiting drive in a decade. China needs 100,000 new pilots in the next 5 years and Europe 250,000 in the next 20. But only CX knows this is all wrong. We actually need less well paid pilots, kids to fill seats and careers lasting 5 years at best. Everyone else has got it wrong.

PS Sorry for the spelling mistakes ( it's obviously catching ).
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 02:16
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 95
As an outsider can someone give me a quick summary as to what COS18 is?
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 02:25
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 39
See post #135
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 05:03
  #130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by 22N114E View Post
See post #135
Thanks Mate. So is this the proverbial E scale?
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 05:06
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by 22N114E View Post
See post #135
Should it not say "..which will enable productivity targets to BE more easily met....."
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 06:56
  #132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Here ---> X
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How dumb do you have to be exactly to sign into a productivity-based paycheck with a company that retains complete control over your productivity?

Enjoy your 70% salary during the next downturn...

Last edited by Yonosoy Marinero; 20th Sep 2018 at 09:43.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 07:38
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Sin
Age: 50
Posts: 75
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
SAS is grounding flights due lack of crew. Norwegian has just added a sign on bonus for all type rated pilots. Jet2 will offer a type rating for free
.
Companies still donít want to typerate. A CX B777 10000 hour captain can apply to easyjet but they will pay for the $hitty 320 rating.

SAS are parking planes as they now have SAIL.
A low cost op from UK or Spain. Pay? Ä5000 for a 320 captain. Need to be rated. After tax= £3500/ month basic. For a captain. WTF.

So crew will still join on COS 18. It looks attractive.
Especially for Cathay Dragon where a command can be had in 18 months. You will still earn 3X that of a loco skipper in Europe. But of course the devil is in the
cost of living detail . And most guys donít really do their research in this respect, do they?
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 07:52
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 271
As Iíve said one looks at raw numbers at oneís own peril. Especially if overly optimistic about a plan to operate on the pessimistic side of pay. This becomes important in that we seem now to be on a regional or low cost carrier compensation plan. With central planning (ie not involving input from you) rostering.

What you need to make depends entirely on where you live. Numbers in isolation mean nothing. Itís doubly worse if youíre not from the place youíre going and have no idea what expenses anyone has there. Or even what stuff costs.

Perhaps one could live like a king in some parts of rural Asia on USD 60k a year. Someone might be able to live quite well on 60K a year or so in some areas of the US with a decent house and yard. In metro San Fran or New York it might take 5 to 10 times this (perhaps even more) for an equivalent standard of living.

Hong Kong is San Fran on steroids.

Choose wisely.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 16:53
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: hongkong
Posts: 398
Well written synopsis STW. Only thing I canít stomach is the method in which they implement it.
49íers case in point. I donít much appreciate the outright lying or reneging on promises either ... why make them at all?
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Old 21st Sep 2018, 07:41
  #136 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20
Join the dots people, COS18 is what "localisation" looks like. Most companies in HK are far further ahead in "localisation" than CX, and that's not because of any inherent racism, but because of the lack of HKATPL-holders "flippin burgers" in HK, waiting for their break into the airlines. Cathay is just following the HK trend as best they can.

Expat terms finished in 2008/9 and now a package solely pitched at local cadets has been introduced. Bases are withering on the vine and with a 5% resignation rate (mainly non-indigenous HK), it will only be 5-10 years before CX/ KA aircraft will be piloted almost exclusively by indigenous HK pilots. With those approaching 55 on COS99 being offered COS18, those desperate unfortunates will continue the trend of training their replacements (doh!!).

Take "localisation" and then overlay double SO everywhere, coupled with the global shift to pilot training/licensing pitched solely at multi-crew licensing and the abandonment of the need for any experience in military or GA/feeder prior to sitting in the front of a wide-body, COS18 makes perfect financial sense.

On the company's spreadsheets, the 5-10 year forecasts must look rosie, no expat terms, no EFP, limited increments, limited education allowance, limited PFund. All this must equate to annual savings in the order of $2,000,000,000, which will go straight into management bonuses and the shareholders' pockets... Locals are by nature compliant and the HKAOA/DPA will merely be a vehicle to arrange cheap insurance (if they are not already) Time to celebrate a win- Gin and tonics all round (but not you pilots, as you are subject to random testing)

What could possibly go wrong with this plan??
Liam Gallagher is offline  
Old 21st Sep 2018, 08:28
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: hk
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by Liam Gallagher View Post
Join the dots people, COS18 is what "localisation" looks like. Most companies in HK are far further ahead in "localisation" than CX, and that's not because of any inherent racism, but because of the lack of HKATPL-holders "flippin burgers" in HK, waiting for their break into the airlines. Cathay is just following the HK trend as best they can.

Expat terms finished in 2008/9 and now a package solely pitched at local cadets has been introduced. Bases are withering on the vine and with a 5% resignation rate (mainly non-indigenous HK), it will only be 5-10 years before CX/ KA aircraft will be piloted almost exclusively by indigenous HK pilots. With those approaching 55 on COS99 being offered COS18, those desperate unfortunates will continue the trend of training their replacements (doh!!).

Take "localisation" and then overlay double SO everywhere, coupled with the global shift to pilot training/licensing pitched solely at multi-crew licensing and the abandonment of the need for any experience in military or GA/feeder prior to sitting in the front of a wide-body, COS18 makes perfect financial sense.

On the company's spreadsheets, the 5-10 year forecasts must look rosie, no expat terms, no EFP, limited increments, limited education allowance, limited PFund. All this must equate to annual savings in the order of $2,000,000,000, which will go straight into management bonuses and the shareholders' pockets... Locals are by nature compliant and the HKAOA/DPA will merely be a vehicle to arrange cheap insurance (if they are not already) Time to celebrate a win- Gin and tonics all round (but not you pilots, as you are subject to random testing)

What could possibly go wrong with this plan??
This is exactly why HKAOA and DPA need to start fighting back by escalating what they are doing.
The contract degradation will only get worse.
Transferring all contract terms from COS to handbook is only step 1.
By comforting you that COS18 doesn't apply to you, they are trying to make existing pilots turn blind eye on COS18.
Once that is up and running, with enough COS18 pilots in the game, guess who will be attacked next?
Time to stop fantasising in your little worlds and look further.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 05:15
  #138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Rabbit Hutch
Posts: 114
ďThe Company may appoint any Officer to be a Check and Trainer.Ē
The above sentence in CoS 18 appears to suggest how they intend getting around the training ban in the future.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 08:15
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 296
Originally Posted by Dragon Pacific View Post
ďThe Company may appoint any Officer to be a Check and Trainer.Ē
The above sentence in CoS 18 appears to suggest how they intend getting around the training ban in the future.
Read that as first OFFICER or second OFFICER, each to train their own!

Can't wait for the

"I'm a trainer"

"Really?"

"Yes, I'm a base training second officer or BTSO as it's known, I failed a captain on his line check the other day"

This is the type of ego they will be looking for unfortunately.

Good guys/girls will see it for what it is, but who knows how many won't.
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Old 8th Oct 2018, 08:27
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 637
Officer

Originally Posted by Dragon Pacific View Post
“The Company may appoint any Officer to be a Check and Trainer.”
The above sentence in CoS 18 appears to suggest how they intend getting around the training ban in the future.
I have it from good sources that the term "officer" is being amended as we speak. GMF had wanted that to read "Brushwinger" from the get go however it had been overlooked.

Bruswinger, must have 200 hrs experience of looking at airplanes.
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