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AT. Why the pretense?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

AT. Why the pretense?

Old 14th Aug 2015, 04:43
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 251
Follow the CC instructions: they're easily understood.
Wait, to clarify, the directive about it's ok to help them out the first FOUR days after operations have ceased, are we suppose to follow that also? Is it ok for me to work on my G days during those first four days? It's an AOA directive right? So it must be ok! But dare I sign on 10 minutes early, I've really compromised our efforts and unity.

The stupidity is laughable!
Flap10 is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2015, 06:11
  #22 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

You boys are hilarious. A good initial post followed by a bunch of children having a playground quarrel . Grow up the lot of you.
Old 14th Aug 2015, 06:16
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Few place
Posts: 207
So glad I resigned

Boy what a complete mess.

So very glad I resigned and not still putting up with this abuse.

Do not miss it one little bit.

Good luck guys, you're going to need it.

What a complete asswipe of a company. Hope they fail!

monster330 is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2015, 07:33
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 7

Never forget what the I in BIFFO stands for! It might explain why F10 needs more time!
Hugo Peroni the IV is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2015, 08:16
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 251
I certainly would not risk my job for you, F10, nor anyone like you.
So we're already making excuses are we little girl As we all know the biggest talkers on this forum are usually the weakest ones.

The whole point to my initial thread was the fact that you should ought to know who your enemy is and know the game. Look at the big picture and be careful how you accuse other members over silly directives that have zero implications. But you do a good job putting people offside that's for sure. Furthermore, nobody made you the police union, so you can go and get [email protected]

We've just had company amended RPs shoved up our arses and you're outlining in detail the directives of CC, as if you're still hanging on to that false notion that CC hasn't worked due to certain members not following the directives to the letter. Fuc*ing wake up and smell the coffee little girl. We tried CC, has had an effect but not the effect we were hoping for. It's time to up the ante!

Hugo, Ironic that you calling someone Idiot when you've completely (and I mean by a long shot) misassumed where I am from...LMAO. Before you make a fool of yourself at least be certain where I am from.

Last edited by Flap10; 14th Aug 2015 at 08:27. Reason: dealing with morons!
Flap10 is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2015, 09:24
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 7
A drunk might be easier to understand. Actions/words define an individual. F10, I don't give two hoots where you are from; forthwith you shall be a BIF who really seems to take PPRuNe seriously. Now that's funny!

Last edited by Hugo Peroni the IV; 14th Aug 2015 at 09:26. Reason: So I can call F10 a moron as my reason for editing!
Hugo Peroni the IV is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2015, 09:31
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: somewhere
Posts: 231
Flap 10 is indicative of why nothing will be achieved by the AOA . With such ignorance in the work force unity will never be achieved. Perhaps Flap 10 did not play enough team sports at school and so failed to realise the importance of membership of one side against another.
kenfoggo is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2015, 09:58
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 325
Errr F10 calling for an increase in industrial action and you clowns are quick to shoot him down. Perhaps there's no unity because of the hostility shown towards each other.
Dragon69 is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2015, 10:36
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 325
Give it a rest Curtain , we get it, you're however starting to act like a petulant child. When the time comes will see which side of the fence everyone is sitting on. Getting all worked up on this forum is no good. Relax bro.
Dragon69 is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2015, 14:11
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Where You Aren't
Posts: 506

Sure, the people going into training now are going against the wishes of the union, but, they are not scabs, no more than someone signing on 10 minutes early is a scab.

A strike is a work stoppage; the concerted refusal of employees to perform work that their employer has assigned to them.

As being a trainer has not been assigned to ANYONE, refusing to be a trainer is not equivalent to being on strike.

Calling those who joined during the recruitment ban scabs while AOA members took upgrades to replace those who were fired is another example of misinterpretation.

Here's a better definition of scab:

A SCAB is A Person Who is Doing What You’d be Doing if You Weren’t on Strike.

A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor disputes and
walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his and your profession,
often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term, nor does he think of anything other
then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives, careers, opportunities and professions at the drop of
a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a decent Job. He steals that which others earned at the bargaining
table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant - ruining lives, jobs and careers.

Please reserve the use of the word scab for someone who crosses a picket line of a striking worker, a worker who is risking his career, his finances and his family for better conditions.

Refusing to go into training is hardly that...
Oval3Holer is offline  
Old 14th Aug 2015, 22:39
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 251
F10, and others like him, won't even follow the current, basic, simple directions to stick to the script, yet you believe it when he says he wants an increase that includes not following his contract?
Dude honestly you need to get laid!!

All you want to do is hide behind your contract and not stick your head out. I've been on CC longer than you've been with the company, so spare me the self righteous lectures, it's getting old. 466 posts of the same garbage.

CC is now a mere inconvenience to the company, get that through your head. The two pronged attack of Yammering and CC isn't gonna cut it anymore.

We're in this current situation because we've done f*ck all. Not because of me getting to the counter a few minutes early, or the guy next to me that's not wearing his red lanyard. Get a life!

FACT: The most vocal staunch AoA members during the mass sickout in 99 were the last to go sick. They were shit scared to go first and wanted to hide behind numbers.

You reek of that character!

You can pretend and beat your chest on an anonymous forum all you want, but I have seen it countless times before, from CoS 08 to the second round of SLS. What people say and how they act on this forum is completely different to what they say and do in real life.

Last edited by Flap10; 14th Aug 2015 at 23:08.
Flap10 is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2015, 01:45
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: smogville
Posts: 44
Curtain Rod et al, wake up and smell the coffee! F10 is a realist not a defeatist, if you think that every Union member shares the same level of commitment as you then you are going to be very disappointed if the stakes are ever raised.

Remember this is a union whose members voted out 5-4-3,
who voted in credit free reserve,
who voted in a 5% pay cut to junior CN scales (will cost every CoS99 guy around 200K),
who voted in RA65 with no seniority protections for staying on RA55, all because it suited various members of the committee of that time.

Were you around for MSS? I was and I am sure the same level of insincerity to follow Union recommendations will occur again. Some are members purely for the Insurance and nothing else.

But why is the FAU able to be successful with the same variable level of commitment from its members? It had members of all service levels out campaigning to stop a pay cut to its newer joiners and theft of meal allowances, within a few weeks it had the company folding. Don't try to justify it with they have less to lose, they have families and mortgages just like us.

So when have we campaigned against a new lower wage for new joiners (B scale or C scale), or unsafe flight patterns, or reduction in manning levels or actually anything of real concern ? Why, because the plain simple truth is we couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery. Instead we complain here or on Yammer, great plan.

Rather than writing 500+ almost identical posts on an anonymous web-site I suggest you devote some energy to having a plan B other than Cathay.

Or assist in nailing down some protections for 3 man ULR, such as no SO can be substituted for other crew, days off before and after, if training crew complement to be increased etc
CX-HOR is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2015, 02:00
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 51
Posts: 230
CC is an inconvenience and only really has a large impact on disruptions and when there is a crew shortage. Sure we have a crew shortage, but the disruptions have not come so much this last typhoon season. As a result CC although in the long term is effective it doesn't give the instant improvement in conditions we would all like to see.

All companies look at one compelling factor to measure employee satisfaction and it's sick leave and turnover. I have not seen turn over increase as yet, maybe it's due to the fact some are willing to hang on to see if things can be fixed. Lots of airbus guys have just started commuting would suggest that there is a belief that things will get better just around the corner. Guys not retiring when considerably low currencies are being recorded also suggests a curiosity of what will be after the storm passes?

Sickness: Since CC there was one recorded increase in sickness. The management started a witch hunt and 3 guys got sacked. All happened to be commuters and they were tracked down by analysing their movements around their sickness. This sickness was not co ordinated or planned, it was just a coincidence. The result is a snap shot of what will happen in the future when sickness hits the magic threshold again.

I heard of a pattern being changed recently due to flight crew sickness. those responsible organised the change them selves. Without going into details.

Why do the FA's go on strike but pilots don't. Because they can go out and get any job in HK that will pay similar or more than what They currently get. For the pilots it's more difficult as we are highly specialised and can't go to any old job without losing something. Also, to walk from one outfit to another is not possible without a considerable amount of time being lost before the new job can be started. All these factors make it impossible for the union to be united as there will always be someone that will break ( logically speaking and the past shows this as true). We know this as well as the company.

What should we do? Be responsible, take it on yourself to realise that we all have a part to play. everything you do has an effect either positive or negative. Analyse these effects and decide what is best for you for others and ultimately the effect it will have on achieving the ultimate end goal which is overall improvement to conditions. In other words stop your arguing, cover yourself legally and make your own personal stand for what's acceptable and if we all think the same, the natural increase in sickness without any directive from the AOA or pattern being able to be detected by the company will achieve your desired result sooner.

RAT Management is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2015, 02:59
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 169
beep wrong RAT.

they are watching sickness for a long while now.....those commuters were caught cause it was over the xmas holidays, not a one off. Straight out of a manager....they appear to look at sickness patterns about two months behind.

but they get around to it.

interesting that my phone is ringing on the 15th.
Scoreboard is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2015, 03:01
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 325
Sorry Curtain but you're being too smug even for my liking.

That's great that you can use Google. Hopefully you can educate yourself and apply it to your posts. You've been repeating yourself like a broken record and offered nothing to the argument. You talk of unity and brotherhood and yet your conduct says the opposite.

As HOR mentioned everyone has a different level of commitment. Frankly I've caught myself signing on early on occasion as well, it's easy to do when you're going to work 15 times or more a month. Do I all of sudden sit on the other side of the fence as you? I don't think so! What if the AoA rewords the directive and says within 10 minutes of sign on, does F10 automatically become a team player? Stop being so anal, judgmental and accusatory, all you're doing is pissing off a senior member of the association.
Dragon69 is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 04:13
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 369
Okay we need to stop worrying about guys who sign on more than 10 mins before departure , it's a non event . What we need to concentrate on is those taking C&T positions and all the GDO workers who are crewing flights that would either require a manager to operate them or not go

You really need to read this article posted on another thread


Don't get angry just make a plan . It's not rocket science
oriental flyer is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 07:07
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 369
One thing that this company needs to realize is

Skilled labour isn't cheap and cheap labour isn't skilled

Because once the other airlines start to pay a decent living wage there will be a massive migration which will see Cathay cripplingly short of crew
This constant attack on our COS will come back to bite them on the ass

Accountants cannot put a cost of employee good will , so in preference to having a group with their hands on the throttles actively doing everything they can to save money . They have now a pilot group actively working against them or at the very least totally disinterested in going the extra mile to help out
Not A great way to run a company
oriental flyer is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2015, 16:48
  #38 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,541
Oriental. You are correct. I would say that the Rubicon has been crossed with this group of pilots. Most of the CX crew are now ACTIVELY working against the company interests. They have had enough. AT has driven the last nail into the operational coffin with her arbitrary and misguided change to RP's. Only a non-pilot could have any thought that this would be a good idea. If you are not 'feeling well', call unfit. Then, take an hour out of your day to see a Dr and get a 10 day sick note. There is NOTHING the company can do about it. You are legitimately off work unfit, and they then have to move on to fighting the next fire...and the next...and the next... This company has NO respect for you, NO regard for the future of you and your family, and absolutely NO regard for your long term health and well being. AT came into the job with all the usual "cooperative" and "understanding" rhetoric. All of it empty words. Every word of it. Hold your friends and coilleagues to account, and make sure that this time the company knows we are deadly serious about demanding and obtaining a proper contract.
Trafalgar is offline  
Old 18th Aug 2015, 14:02
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Location Location
Posts: 99
@RAT Management

Why do the FA's go on strike but pilots don't. Because they can go out and get any job in HK that will pay similar or more than what They currently get.

Brother, are you out of touch. Median starting wages for college graduates in Hong Kong is at 20-year lows.

Salaries of Hong Kong?s university graduates dropped 20 per cent in last 20 years, study finds | South China Morning Post

FAs are only required to possess secondary school education, the job has a good deal of perks for young recent graduates and even starting pay is considerably higher than what college graduates can expect at most firms in Hong Kong for most positions these days.

I don't disagree with the gist of your post, but get real. FA is still one of the better paid jobs for most young people in Hong Kong starting out in the work force. It's the lack of career progression and pay increases that has most crew leaving within a few years.

No, the cabin crew were more easily rallied because they're a culturally more homogeneous group; they work in small teams per norm and are more engaged in social media platforms etcetera. It doesn't hurt that the % of local crew has grown to well over 70% of total crew. In short, they're a stronger peer group. Stakes certainly play a roll, but don't soft pedal their resolve to stand and fight ffs. These are the same kids standing in the streets fighting the commie juggernaut. I salute them and wish we had the kind of balls they had.
Shutterbug is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2015, 07:38
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: HK
Posts: 9
Getting back to the thread topic

Some facts and a few questions:

1. Whilst negotiating RP's back in 2000 the company (GMA later DFO) agreed that RP's would become legally binding as an attachment to CoS.
2. The GMA/DFO reneged on this promise.
3. We at least had RP's that it was agreed by both parties would remain in effect until new RP's could be agreed upon. This has been accepted custom and practice for the last 15 years as successive agreed RP's have replaced older ones.
4. You have reneged on this. (Unilaterally imposing 3 man LRO & 2 man WOCL flights, dismantling A days and disregarding the provisions surrounding the rostering of reserve)
5. You have written to the HKAOA stating that you will "keep RP's in their current form until 2017 or until new RP's are agreed with the HKAOA"

1. Why have you carried out fact 4 above?
2. Given that I'm sure the reasons you give will be considered to be good ones by yourself, what additional guarantees are you giving that you will comply with fact 5?
3. If you were a pilot at Cathay Pacific would you even believe fact 5 yourself?
4. What is your understanding of the word "agreement" and do you think that your actions demonstrate either your understanding of the word, the generally accepted understanding of the word, neither or both?
5. What are your plans for RP17?

kind regards
anthraCX is offline  

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