Marshall vs. Cathay Pacific Management

[swh]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Marshall

the appropriate response isn't to call the police.

The people reading this thread have been in aviation for years, we know that police are not called as a first response. We know police would have been called as a last resort.

We also know the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance, and that obstructing crew and unruly behaviour is an offence punishable with up to 5 years imprisonment. It is not and specific airline policy or procedure, it is Hong Kong law. If you tried that on any carrier from any country whilst in Hong Kong, and failed to move when requested, the appropriate response is to get the police involved. The behaviour you described in my opinion is contrary to Hong Kong law.

I would have had a long hard think about making that statement you posted on your blog to the police, I do not think you thought about the implications that that statement would have under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance. Likewise making public statements that you have all of the events as an audio recording in my view has been ill thought out by you considering the implications under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance. Likewise remaining in Hong Kong where you could still be arrested under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance in my view has been ill though through.

I look forward to the new entry on another blog, Stupid Criminals - Dumb Crooks - Funny Stories Jokes Humor And Satire

It is not reasonable to delay an aircraft 200 pax and around 14 crew for 40 minutes and potentially causing cascading delays through the day, delaying another aircraft and cargo, and another group of passengers, and possibly other connecting flights.

It is not reasonable to have an assigned economy boarding pass and economy seat allocation and fail to sit in that seat.

It is not reasonable to not to comply with a reasonable request to move to the seat that is printed on the boarding pass.

It is not reasonable to request that that direction be issued to you in writing, when the seat assignment was issued in writing.

It is not reasonable to expect further carriage after you had been offloaded due to your behaviour.

It is not reasonable to expect a refund after you had been offloaded due to your behaviour.

I would like to see people who hold aircraft up like this to have to pay for the delay, there is a real tangible cost in delaying and aircraft, 200 passengers, 14 odd crew, cargo, ground equipment, and ground staff.

Originally Posted by L'aviateur

I appreciate what happened to you was intimidating and upsetting, but something still doesn't add up with your story.

That all starts with the sort of person that buys a BA Y class ticket to go from PEK to TPE, flies the first sector with KA.....and then states "the tickets are kind of irrelevant"....

Somehow it is all the fault of CX ???????

[Sebastian Marshall]

I would have had a long hard think about making that statement you posted on your blog to the police, I do not think you thought about the implications that that statement would have under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance. Likewise making public statements that you have all of the events as an audio recording in my view has been ill thought out by you considering the implications under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance. Likewise remaining in Hong Kong where you could still be arrested under the Hong Kong Aviation Security Ordinance in my view has been ill though through.

You're thinking about rational self-interest, and I'm thinking about principles.

The rest of your comment was like that - why hold things up? Couldn't I just back down, and leave it at that?

And the answer is - no. I believe this man behaved totally irresponsibly and refused to be held accountable in writing or on audio. I gave multiple ways for him to de-escalate, he would have none of them except blind obedience or violence. The world should not work this way. If requesting a written record of an abusive manager's threat is a punishable offense, then I accept whatever punishment may come. If staying in Hong Kong and making the event transparent to the world lands me in jail, then I accept the jailtime. The world should not be run on coercion without any accountability.

[swh]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Marshall

I believe this man behaved totally irresponsibly and refused to be held accountable in writing or on audio.

Under Hong Kong Law it is the passenger that is accountable for their actions, not the crew, not ground staff, not the airline, not the airport, and not Police.

Yes as a passenger you are required to "just back down, and leave it at that", if you have a dispute, that should not be sorted out onboard an aircraft. In the transcript that you published, the Police said that to you a number of times. If that was a US registered aircraft with an Air Marshal onboard, you would have been arrested and prevented from ever flying again.

There is no requirement under Hong Kong Law for any direction to move seats to be made in writing. To ask for something in writing that you already had printed on your economy class boarding pass is being belligerent. You were asking for something you already had.

You will get no sympathy on here at all for your actions, you have displayed no consideration, compassion, or remorse for the people you indiscriminately decided to delay. It is people like yourself that make our days longer, increase our workloads, increase the stress levels, and take time away from our families. All for what ? not wanting to sit in the seat assigned to you on your boarding pass.

You have shown little consideration for the defenceless company representatives that you verbally abused and taunted, they were doing their jobs. They put up with this sort of crap from people like yourself every day. The way things are done in Asia, the company would terminate their employment to show they did something about it. And all you would have achieved is putting a few more people out of work, and those people also have families which you do not seem to care about either.

You are so so selfish.

[Frogman1484]

Marshall, do you realize that if you did this back in the USA you would have been tazered, arrested and sentenced to jail time and right now would probably be cuddling up to Bubba in your 6 by 12 room.

My 2 cents on your situation, is that yes the manager most probably could have behaved differently but then so could you. It sounds to me that you knew that things were not right with your booking and that you intentionally went and sat in the wrong seat with the pure intention of proving your point.

So when you say that you gave him the opportunity to de scale the situation...are you sure you did? Maybe you should have got off the aircraft and sorted out the issue properly before reboarding or catching the next flight.

Remember two wrongs do not make a right!

[SloppyJoe]

Having read a bit more about this it is actually quite amusing, your transcript from the police station tells a lot. A guy comes to the police station on the 26th December and is quite reasonable and you call him an idiot multiple times in front of him.

You say the captain never ordered you to be removed from the plane. I am pretty sure after you had delayed his flight for over 30 minutes he would have done. You probably think this means walking up to you and saying to your face to get of the plane, it does not. A guy would have stuck his head into the flight deck and said something along the lines of "its not getting better, he will not sit down, shall we offload him?" Captain would have said "yes". That's it, no fan fair no writing you a letter, a simple yes that you wont hear or see and he has authorized you be removed from the aircraft. I can say with almost 100% certainty that the captain of your flight was consulted and he DID want you removed from the aircraft.

Its funny that you still think being a citizen of the united states of america makes any difference at all. I assume you still think this as mention that you have contacted the US consulate and got the number for homeland security . You are in CHINA, what do you think homeland security will do?

You seem to also be confused about company policy and customer service. I hope that EVERYONE who works for CX puts company policy before customer service. The main purpose of company policy within an airline is to increase the safety of the operation and protect our customers (including you). I don't know what the policy in the situation is but I am pretty sure that if at the gate and there is a passenger refusing to sit down or follow lawful commands the policy is to remove him/her and deal with it off the aircraft, if they refuse to leave then the police are called. I expect most people will be glad that CX follows company policy rather than just changing it at the request of an individual.

It sounds to me like the ground staff did a good job in an awkward situation, maybe the manager was rude but as someone has pointed out he will have to deal with this multiple times a day. You had an economy seat, refused to move, had something handwritten about first class and were demanding he write you his orders down. You should have moved, everyone who has read your story can see that but you seem to believe that most of the world will run like the USA and if someone thinks they can get compensation they go for it. I am glad to say that most of the world is not like that.

Did the aircraft you were on even have a first class? What was the flight number?

I think it is time to quieten down and move on. Not as I think this could hurt the company I work for as it can't. It wont reduce any sales, they wont even pay for additional legal advice it will just be handled in house. You are not a big threat and that is why they did not send a lawyer along to the police station. What you are trying to do will not work, mainly because you were in the wrong.

[Iron Skillet]

At first, I was kind of glad this guy was standing up for himself against what appeared to be a power-tripping ground agent, so I read along and clicked a couple of links....

As soon as I saw this guy's "title" I had had enough. For someone to actually state in writing in a complaint to the police that his "title" (below his name/signature) is "Citizen of the United States of America" is so incredibly ridiculous, arrogant, delusional, laughable, meaningless and stupid, and filled with some sense of entitlement to special treatment, I no longer had any respect for this guy or his argument.

I once read that there are two types of Americans: Those that are laughed at by every other culture in the world, and those that are embarrassed to be associated with the first type.

[Sebastian Marshall]

Two questions for critics -

1. Is it smart to call the police instead of repeating yourself after someone turns on an audio recorder?

2. Is lying to the police wrong?

As soon as I saw this guy's "title" I had had enough. For someone to actually state in writing in a complaint to the police that his "title" (below his name/signature) is "Citizen of the United States of America" is so incredibly ridiculous, arrogant, delusional, laughable, meaningless and stupid, and filled with some sense of entitlement to special treatment, I no longer had any respect for this guy or his argument.

I mention I'm American because my country strongly protects free speech rights abroad if a citizen gets in trouble for releasing information about true events. The American Consulate would intervene if I was arrested, whereas a less influential country might not be able to. I wanted Cathay management, legal, etc to know that.

Again - threatening police action against someone being polite is a very big deal - you can't refuse accountability for that. If you think calling the police is a superior option to just repeating your decision once a paying customer asks for it on audio, then your ethics are so far different from mine that I don't know what else to tell you.

[Sebastian Marshall]

I just realized a number of people replying are Cathay pilots.

Look, maybe most of offloads deserve it and are jerks. Maybe. This isn't that, though. I've traveled through 60+ countries, flown a bunch, have acquaintances who are pilots, and never had anything remotely like this.

You're filtering what happened here through your own experience, probably imaging some guy being unreasonable. I wasn't. I explained to the manager reasonably that Cathay screwed up a bunch while the flight was still boarding, and he went right to demands/threats. When I asked for a record of that (written or audio), he called the police.

You can say whatever you like about being an American, make insults, whatever. I stand up for what I think is right. Threatening people capriciously is wrong, we can't let jerks just threaten people and not be accountable.

Some people here have been damn nasty. I've explained what happened and answered questions pretty reasonably, and you guys are kind of making insults. Whatever, it's a pilot's forum, you blow off steam here, someone's fighting your company's management, maybe you sympathize with them, or think that if I got offloaded I must have deserved it, or that you think it wasn't the right call to insist that his threats and jerk behavior be recorded for posterity because it screws up timetables.

Okay. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But I think what they did was really wrong, and I was willing to take a lot of cost, a lot of stress, a lot of risk, and ruin my entire vacation to fix things after working 30 days straight. I'm damn sincere that things need change. Maybe you disagree. But that's what's happening here.

[broadband circuit]

You're pretty quick, huh!

I just realized a number of people replying are Cathay pilots.

Try most Einstein. And the non-Cathay people are Dragonair pilots.

[bigjames]

sebastian, if you have flown so much, surely you realize that airline seats are assigned and printed on your boarding pass. how would you know when you entered the aircraft that the seat you chose in business was not assigned to someone else? (as you said, the aircraft was still boarding while this discussion was going on.)

also, if you have flown a lot, you will know that cabin staff are not authorized to change seats (from one class to another; obviously people can and do move within a class of service if there are open seats), even after doors are closed and there are spare seats. i believe that is true of every airline around the world. the ground staff, with access to the computers can change seats, and when they do, they print you a new boarding pass.

yes it was a clusterf*** day and maybe cx did make mistakes. maybe you should have had a j seat instead of y. but really man, it is your responsibility to sort that out before you get on the plane. maybe the guy was rude and maybe he could have handled the thing better. but if it were me i would have either a) sucked it up and realized i was not gonna sit in j with a y seat allocation or b) waited til the next flight and sorted it out on the ground.

and fyi, i am not a professional pilot, but i am a pilot and fly small planes. i can tell you that in airline culture, safety is everything. also, as other posters pointed out, the impact of a delay is not just for the folks on that flight, but for other folks waiting in taipei for the return flight, who have connections, for other flight crew etc etc. the cascade effect is massive. so that is why they are going to be strict with one passenger who is holding things up because he/she does not want to sit in the seat printed on the boarding pass. the people charged with getting the flight off on time do not know and cannot know about the series of mistakes that caused you to believe you had the wrong seat.

just my two cents!

[bigjames]

and i realize your issue is not about the seat but about the guy not repeating or writing his decision. again, maybe he could have done that better (by repeating, not by writing, mind).
as for calling the police, there was an impasse and even if it was of cx's making they have to get the show on the road.

[Fliegenmong]

"Threatening people capriciously is wrong, we can't let jerks just threaten people and not be accountable."

Regrettably, several US administrations have done the same SM., and signing off as a 'Citizen of the USA', displays such out of touch arrogance that you'll always turn people off, yet you'll always be blind to that,.....and that is a shame, 'cos in soooo many ways you are right., look at how many (Thousands?) of threads are here on this site deploring the imbecilic behaviour of the TSA, and the actions you describe at CX, are, at least at face value, are as moronic as the TSA fiasco.

Still CX have the cards stacked in their interest via HKG air law, and other carriers are afforded the same level of unquestionable protection (as per SWH), and from an objective view it can be seen there is not much between an imbecile TSA employee and an arrogant CX employee when viewed through the paradigm of 'enhanced safety' due security concerns.

A 'catch all' ain't it?

Those Saudis are to blame are they not?, all the 911 culprits were Saudia nationals, they're curiously exempt though....yet the actions of their fellow countrymen bought about a massive decline in freedom and liberty in the west as we know it......and that is a real shame, but as you say SM, no accountability........

When travelling through the USA on staff tkts now, (leisure travel only but on staff tkts)and I'm stamped '---' on my boarding pass, I make sure to walk up to the nice TSA man with my hands on my head and make out that I am the criminal that they perceive me to be....invariably they ask me to put my hands down, and I reply, 'But Sir, you're swabbing my luggage for traces of explosives, clearly you believe me to be a threat to the country'

Reminds them of how f**king ridiculous they are, you see........so I can sympathise when you ask for written confirmation, but you're a commendable fool if you think you can better the situation, I wish you could, I wish we could, but at the end of the day the laws are in place to ensure whatever monkey tells you what hoop to jump through , you have to jump through

IMHO the actions of the (Predominately) Saudi 911 perpetrators have lessened our freedoms, and have given rise to all manner of 'Power Tripper' under the guise of 'enhanced security'

Not sure why so many Saudis nationals are allowed to perpetrate the 911 atrocities without accountability....maybe teh CX guy can give you a clue????

[flyboy007]

It's very simple. You refused to move to your ticketed seat, and refused to get off the aeroplane when ordered. Like it or not, you don't make caveats on the requests/orders of the airline staff, such as "only if you put it in writing". Neither should you. Therefore, by insisting pointlessly that the manager put it in writing, you were essentially not complying with his/Captains orders. Therefore, you needed to be removed. The cabin crew aren't going to manhandle you, the ground staff aren't, that's the police job. If you've flown to over 60 countries and crossed borders and started schools and written best selling books in a week yadayadayada, then you should have the A) travel experience to know that the seat on the boarding pass is the one you sit in, B) intelligence to realise that if you screw around on an aeroplane, you'll be meeting the local police, and C) enough knowledge of airline ticketing procedures and check in etc to realise that a hand written receipt with first class scrawled on it does not constitute proof of having purchased an upgrade.

It's certainly proof that someone has hand written first class on a receipt.

In addition, from your travel knowledge, I'm sure you'd be aware that access to the first or business class lounge is not evidence of having purchased an upgrade. There's lots of reasons people are granted access to the lounges.

Perhaps, for the avoidance of doubt, you'd scan your boarding passes and hand written receipts into the site so we can all assess how genuine they are for ourselves.

You could also tell the flight number and date, so we might check that there actually was a first class, in the interests of credibility.

For my money, I think you're more than likely that guy that has to make a scene, in a bid to validate himself and convince himself of his world changing ability.

As for your letter to the publisher on your website: if you'd written me that letter I wouldn't have crawled out of bed to reply to that obnoxious drivel either.

All the best

[400 Jockey]

The only thing I can tell is that this Sebastian dude likes to read his own writing and by watching his blog loves the sound of his own voice.

However you call it, you caused a commotion and in the interests of security you were removed - Sound decision on CX's part if you ask me.

If you were in the USA regardless of being a "US Citizen" you would be a prison bitch right now in the local penitentiary.

[flyboy007]

While you've got the scanner out, might as well scan the credit card statements too.

The more I read of this transcript, the worse it gets. I'm surprised they let you drag it out for 40 minutes! Seems lax of them. Murphy is probably in the crap for that; he should have kicked you off earlier.

[flyboy007]

And to finish with, a quote from your own "transcript".

"....You’re sure you’re right, maybe you’re even right. I don’t know, maybe i’m just a jerk, the screwed up 200 people’s nights. American, he’s a jerk. screw him. Okay. Maybe that’s it, maybe that’s true...."

My Bold.

Good night

[Sebastian Marshall]

Regrettably, several US administrations have done the same SM., and signing off as a 'Citizen of the USA', displays such out of touch arrogance that you'll always turn people off, yet you'll always be blind to that,.....and that is a shame, 'cos in soooo many ways you are right., look at how many (Thousands?) of threads are here on this site deploring the imbecilic behaviour of the TSA, and the actions you describe at CX, are, at least at face value, are as moronic as the TSA fiasco.

Thanks for the good discussion.

Let me ask you, you've got some good opinions here - how could things be different with management, security, etc?

I mean, me, whatever. Some people see this as "guy who held up plane (I don't think so by the way, Murphy just had to say his stuff again and it would have been over), screw him, what a jerk" and some people see this as "guy who says you can't make threats without creating a record of them, middle managers can't just threaten people and not be accountable, the world needs to run better than that."

You could look at it either way. As pilots, you don't want your time wasted. I know. The pilot was pretty cool to me, by the way. I read people pretty well, and I get the impression the middle manager was really disliked by everyone. Chubby guy in a power suit with a power haircut, bossy, demanding, insulting, patronizing, abusive.

But never mind him and me, how about in general? There's a bunch of threads on here about security/nonsense going too far? Well, I don't think it's going to change unless people make some intelligent suggestions and then push hard for that change. What should security look like, different than it is now, in everyone's opinion?

[Sebastian Marshall]

And to finish with, a quote from your own "transcript".

"....You’re sure you’re right, maybe you’re even right. I don’t know, maybe i’m just a jerk, the screwed up 200 people’s nights. American, he’s a jerk. screw him. Okay. Maybe that’s it, maybe that’s true...."

My Bold.

Good night

Right, I'm actually open to their perspective and the idea that I might be wrong. I was willing to discuss it. I was talking about how I want to get this over with and behind us, and Kenny brought up that 200 people's nights were wasted. I was open to their point of view - I said I think their manager wasted the time, but I can see how they'd see it differently.

You should probably just read entire thing in context, I was telling him I don't want to fight Cathay in public and a mutual apology would be enough for me -


SM: You think you gonna gain business if i fight you in public and release this. you think this is gonna help you? You think this can help you?

Kenny: Yes, but in case, surely you’re affecting over 200 of our customers and the flight has been delayed for 38 minutes..on this case.

Sm: Who’s fault is that? Mine?

Kenny: And..

SM: Mine? Or the guy who would have say “Sit down, we can talk about it when we get to Taipei” It was all empty, the business class. The business class is all empty by the way, there’s no one in business class, and i i told him if he just writes down and sign his decision, then i’ll get off or sit in the thing, before the flight is even delayed, he refused to do that. He could have done that. but he just threatened me.

Kenny: And also you refuse to go back to your seat.

SM: He threatened me. Would you accept a threat?

Kenny: Also you refuse to go back to sit at your seat right?

SM: All he had to do was to sign his decision, and write the facts, and sign it, and i would go, is that a reasonable thing?

Kenny: It’s not his decision, it’s the captain’s.

SM: The captain never said anything to go. He did not tell me to go.

Kenny: (Silence)

SM: Do you understand that the captain never told me to go?

Kenny: (Silence)

SM: No? I got that on audio.

Kenny: (Silence)

SM: DO YOU GET THAT I RECORDED EVERYTHING? Look, look, recording. I’ve got 2 -3 hours of this now. I don’t think you’ve realized what’s going on here. You’re like making the biggest mistake of your life, like it’s gonna ruin a lot of people’s lives. I don’t want to ruin a lot of people’s lives, which is why i’m here offering peace. You’re sure you’re right, maybe you’re even right. I don’t know, maybe i’m just a jerk, the screwed up 200 people’s nights. American, he’s a jerk. screw him. Okay. Maybe that’s it, maybe that’s true. It’s a about to get a lot worse. So i’m offering peace. A very simple peace. Don’t even apologize for what you did, just say we’re sorry tht a bad experience happened, no one will be at fault, i’m mutual apology. Hey if you refuse, that’s fine. you’re perogative, you can do whatever you like.

Kenny: You’ll fail.

SM (to Lai): Inspector, what can i do man? They wanted me to do it their way, but they’re acting actually wrong, they made two mistakes, they threatened me, they’re being rigid, stubborn, i think i’m being pretty cool here. You’re they one that told me don’t get a lawyer, just let it go, they’ll be cool, you’re mistaken. They’re not cool.

[bigjames]

there are many threads with suggestions about how to improve security, but i am not sure they are relevant here.

i learned long ago that in every country, in every company, there are people who either consistently or for some reason on a certain day, act poorly to people in front of them. nothing in your crusade is going to change that. (although i wish it would). sometimes, you have to just learn the old "nobless oblige" thing and realize you are facing a person on a power trip who has all the systems behind him/her. self righteousness is never gonna win in that situation. i spent a few hours in cuffs at a jail house in the US on the night of my university graduation because i did something slightly wrong and the law acted way out of line in the circumstances. ever since then, when i see a situation like that, i am all "yessir, no sir" because being otherwise is not going to help my cause.

you may think that is weak and lame, but quite frankly, even if you "win" this case and your murphy guy gets sacked and ruined, it is not going to stop that mentality in small parts of the human race. just deal with it and move on. i have since been in much worse situations than you were just in and i got my way out of it and moved on.

but hey, maybe you will be like alec baldwin and gain some sort of fame for all that and there will be a skit on SNL or an appearance on letterman. if so, good for you, honestly. but i can assure you, you will end up with the short end of the stick again one day (as we all do from time to time) and my advice would be to shrug it off, laugh about it when the anger subsides, and move on.

[Sebastian Marshall]

i learned long ago that in every country, in every company, there are people who either consistently or for some reason on a certain day, act poorly to people in front of them. nothing in your crusade is going to change that. (although i wish it would). sometimes, you have to just learn the old "nobless oblige" thing and realize you are facing a person on a power trip who has all the systems behind him/her. self righteousness is never gonna win in that situation. i spent a few hours in cuffs at a jail house in the US on the night of my university graduation because i did something slightly wrong and the law acted way out of line in the circumstances. ever since then, when i see a situation like that, i am all "yessir, no sir" because being otherwise is not going to help my cause.

That sucks dude, I'm sorry that happened. University graduation? Man, that's a hell of a lot worse than when going on vacation.

I'll tell you James, man, I don't know... I think this thing only happens because people take it. Also, y'know, I think part of the problem is that I was dressed strange that day - halfway high-business like you saw in the first video, halfway touristy... I think he mistook me for a punk rock kid or something, not a serious businessman. I was talking to him as an equal (maybe even slightly condescending, maybe) and he flips out - I think it's a face/authority thing. I wonder if the same thing happened in your case, since you were "just a college kid" when they did that to you?

You know what I mean? Like, you're a pilot, I'm a businessman, we get treated pretty well. Doesn't it kind of suck that weak people get muscled around? We can file complaints, sort it out later, write nasty letters... but I think authority tends to not try to crack down on us so much because we're serious people. But what about the people who just take the abuse of some jerk's power trip?

I think people like Murphy try to do it to weak people. I'm 99% sure he mistook me for just some cocky kid or something. I was dressed off - long black coat, ushanka Russian hat, but then light blue jeans, fashionable young shirt, scarf... it didn't match at all, I just threw it together to go on vacation.

But man, so what? I hate that, I hate that people like Murphy just abuse people when they feel like they can get away with it. I guarantee he wouldn't pull that **** if I was in a suit.

I just... it drives me crazy to think he'll pick on people who won't stand up for themselves.