Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks

[christn]

Whilst following this discussion it is worth considering some history.

'B' scale then 'Freighter only" pilots join CX declaring 'I am happy with my contract!'
After a few years human nature takes over - 'I want what he's got'

The result: an overall stagnation/reduction in salary and conditions.

Why should this be any different? Surely the way forward is not to seen to be demanding something just because someone else has it !

[bm330]

LongTimeInCX concur.

There's already been an erosion of benifits with the not so gentle push to COS08. The company's solution to problems tends to be to impliment the lowest common denominator.

By attacking someone else's "allowance", generally considered as discretionary, the fix is more likely to be a reduction or removal of the allowance as opposed to the CEPs being included.

[bobrun]

This time, I have to say that I am 100% behind the DFO on that one.

Why don't the LEPs pay for their training if they will get an housing allowance?
Why do they have a pretty much guaranteed job as a wide body FO then - why not make them compete with expats for their jobs at the end of their training?

And don't forget that "locally employed" based guys do not receive any allowances at any point while LEP in HK do (plus the company has offered to give LEP FOs 12 000$ / mth!).

Someone needs a reality check! Stop comparing yourself to the pilots in HK and look around in the world; you have had one of the easiest and cushiest path in civil aviation that exits today. A few months ago, I flew with a LEP that had just bought his new jag and was planning his ski trip in the Alps....please, with 500hrs total time most of us were struggling to pay rent.

Shame on the AOA for pursuing this issue. I realise they have to try to please everyone, but this pointless case will only hurt us during other real negotiations that we'll have to face this year.

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Expat = someone who is not a HKG permanent resident

Mullah Lite:

Wrong! Once employed on EXPAT terms and conditions, the contract is binding no matter HOW LONG you live and work in Hong Kong.

There mere fact that you qualify for a permanent HKID after 7 consecutive years in Hong Kong is a privilage and courtesy from the Hong Kong SAR government and in check with the same rights granted to chinese nationals living and working in overseas countries.

Your employment contract has NOTHING to do with a change in status in the country where you now live and work.

[TGIG]

Hahaha, do you work in the same company as me AD POSSE? No contact has ever been binding for the entirety of one's career - age 65/bypass pay comes to mind...

[Mullah Lite]

Ad Posse

That's not what the DFO seems to think, as his recent remarks have alluded to.

I'm not saying he's right but is it not arguable to say that once you become a permanent legal resident of the country you reside in, that you are no longer, by definition, an expatriate in that country....because it is now a legal residence?

Which is why I'm saying, it's a dangerous precedent to follow....the company is trying to blur the lines between definitions of locals and expats, and in that run are trying to pit the expats against the locals (are bobruns comments not an example?), using the locals as scapegoats for the what they are planning for the greater pilot community. And don't think that the company hasn't thought about it for a long time. This is playing right into their hands. I understand the concept that you are putting forward, that once a contract is signed, that it remains as is, but you and I both know that that is not the case in CX, and that things change and become redefined at their behest, not ours.

[CXChildLabour]

Poor little boy, right seat of a wide body with zero hours at 24 and he has to scrape a few extra cents to pay for inflated rents....let me get the violin out

How about those 40 years old senior FO/CN/STC who has been in the aviation industry for 20 years??? You wanna play them a sad song with your violin too???

oh I forgot for now you've conveniently put away your Canadian passport

Ah, no, I've been using my canadian passport all along and don't even own a SAR passport if you really wanna know. Nationality on my cadet application form: Canadian; Nationality on ICAO card: Canadian; Nationality on my license: Canadian. And when I called the recruiting department up before my interview they've considered me as an "overseas applicant", but a "local" when they said I'm accepted into the programme, so if you really wanna categorize me, I'm an "overseas local" if that makes sense to you. What else would you like to know?


Anyway, STP is right, it's pointless trying to crack a tough nut. This would be my last response to Dragon69's post.

[CXChildLabour]

plus the company has offered to give LEP FOs 12 000$ / mth!

LOL, how long have u been working in this company to believe every single word in that DFO update? As far as I know, the "offer" was verbally conversed to the LPF committee as a "possibility", nothing is written anywhere black and white nor was a effective date given. Far as I know, it could come somewhere between the year 2010 to 20010. The company "offers" a lot of promises, you tell me how many actually became reality.

Wrong! Once employed on EXPAT terms and conditions, the contract is binding no matter HOW LONG you live and work in Hong Kong.

Your employment contract has NOTHING to do with a change in status in the country where you now live and work.

Oh really? Why were the Canadian based guys forced to sign onto COS08 or else they'd have to give up their base? Wasn't COS99 binding for them on that base? And why do the DEFO's get expat status when they move to HKG after they signed a local term contract on the base? It's a binding local term contract they signed so they should be paid as a local no matter where they're based, correct? The CEP's signed a binding local term contract and they're paid local terms on a base...........

[CXChildLabour]

Why don't the LEPs pay for their training if they will get an housing allowance?

You go around and ask the CEP's if they're willing to pay back their training cost if they could get an housing allowance. I for one am willing to pay interest of top of or even double the training cost if it gets me there. 1.2 million HKD equals how many years of housing allowance, you do the math for me. It can't even get u a half decent 400 sq ft apartment in town.

Why do they have a pretty much guaranteed job as a wide body FO then - why not make them compete with expats for their jobs at the end of their training?

Guaranteed job as a wide body FO? Dude, have you actually been through CX training system? What's guaranteed is if you have the slightest screw up you're gonna get a call from 3rd floor. Do some research and see what's the percentage of cadet graduates actually get through to become an FO in this company. And sure, let them compete with expats for their jobs at the end of their training, CX would love to write off their "suggested" 1.2 million training cost spending that way. In fact, that's a good idea, why not make the instructor cadets compete with expats for their jobs at the end of their training. By then they would have enough hours to do so, since they're getting the full allowance anyway it'd only be fair to see if they're as worthy as the next expat pilot applicant.

A few months ago, I flew with a LEP that had just bought his new jag and was planning his ski trip in the Alps....please, with 500hrs total time most of us were struggling to pay rent.

Did you actually ask whether he paid all that with his CX salary? If you didn't then I could tell you that my friend who never had to work owns an Audi R8, do you care?

[iLuvPX]

Ask yourself this one question: "Are CEP's currently receiving anything LESS than what they SIGNED for in their CONTRACT?"

If the answer is NO, then all this boils down to is GREED and ENVY.

[CXChildLabour]

iLuvPX,

please ask yourself the same question next time you're looking for any sort of improvement in condition. That includes payrise/housing/retirement age/education allowance/p-fund/AFTL and many more. If you EVER want any improvement in ANYTHING that you've signed up for, you're deemed to be greedy and envious.

[iLuvPX]

CEP's are not looking to improve their pay, they are looking to get an EXPAT housing allowance, they want something they are NOT entitled too, something they didnt have when they signed the contract, something that after a few years of eating sandwiches during preflight they think, all of a sudden, they deserve.

More importantly, yet again, CX will come out of this SMILING. It truly begs the question whether the AOA is in bed with management. A subtle note by NR about "when does an expat become local" in a previous missive, then conveniently the AOA launches this attack. End result...expats will inevitably pay for this with their benefits...better burn that HK ID card!

My guess, CEP's get a little something in housing allowance, paid for by reduction of expat housing allowance, CX comes out net ahead, AOA still remains useless.

[CXChildLabour]

iLuvPX,

Please read my lips and repeat after me: "CEP DO NOT CARE WHAT FORM THE IMPROVEMENT COMES IN, THEY ARE LOOKING TO CLOSE THE GAP". If it's too hard of a sentence for your brain to process, get your kid to help you out.

And as for your "all of a sudden" accusation, you can go back to post #94, I've shot down Dragon69 once already regarding the same thing and do not plan to waste my time with you again.

Sure as hell you should burn that HK ID card of yours, why would you want it anyway? You're an expat, not a local, you don't want to stay and live in this place would you? It's not what you sacrificed for.

[CXChildLabour]

they want something they are NOT entitled too, something they didnt have when they signed the contract, something that after a few years of eating sandwiches during preflight they think, all of a sudden, they deserve.

And those signed onto COS08 were entitled to RA65? Was it in the contract when you signed? Why was it then after so many years of earning a hefty salary and you think all of a sudden you deserve an extra 10 years at the expense of delayed upgrade for others? Gimme a break.

[iLuvPX]

Thanks for the tip, I did ask my kid, here's what came out of it:

Took her to the store to buy a toy, she did and thought it was the best toy ever. After playing with it happily for a few years, she saw the neighbor's expensive toys and realized they were better they her's.

Now instead of being happy with the toy's she had, she wants what the other kid had. Instead of asking the neighbor to buy cheaper toys to "REDUCE THE GAP" between my kid's toys, I told my daughter to STFU and go grab me a beer out the fridge, because she chose those toys and shouldn't be ENVIOUS of what the neighbor had.

For a CEP to "reduce the gap" they have to have something better to offer. If CX was to pay based on experience and skill level like most other companies, CEPs would still be working in the mail room.

[CXChildLabour]

iLuvPX,

you know what, I'm totally wasting my time here. You're completely ignoring the fact that some CEP's have been in the company and aviation industry for almost 20 years, with more experience than any SO/FO and even some CN who receives better overall deal, and skills that the company rely on when everything goes to hell. No, that's not a better package to offer to the company than the next guy down the list, it's ONLY GOOD ENOUGH TO WORK IN THE MAIL ROOM. If you do get checked by one of the CEP STC next time, please make sure you tell them exactly what you thought of them before you depart for your flight.

I also feel pity for you girl, she's stuck with the same toy for life. You're probably telling her that she picked that toy so STFU even when she's 40 years old. Nope, not because it doesn't fit what she needs for her age or that she deserves something better, it's ONLY BECAUSE SHE'S ENVIOUS OF HER NEIGHBOUR.

[bubble.head]

HOLD ON! You mean, instead of learning to fly with your own money, having to endure many years in general aviation, getting paid peanuts flying in a death trap, and the forever stress of finding the next job in your career, you CADETS decided to take the shortcut and joined the Cathay Pacific's Cadet program KNOWING full well that you were/are NOT entitled to housing allowance, just so you can wear that pretty uniform and the hat and become an airline pilot?!

GET REAL! Housing allowance is for those who've done the hard yard. There were two paths in front of you when you made that decision, and you chose the cadet route. LIVE WITH IT!

Bunch of whinging and b8tching pilots.

[the point]

F!!!k me! As has been posted before numerous times before, please discuss this on the AOA site. That is if you have access.
If not maybe you should think about applying for it.

[bobrun]

HOLD ON! You mean, instead of learning to fly with your own money, having to endure many years in general aviation, getting paid peanuts flying in a death trap, and the forever stress of finding the next job in your career, you CADETS decided to take the shortcut and joined the Cathay Pacific's Cadet program KNOWING full well that you were/are NOT entitled to housing allowance, just so you can wear that pretty uniform and the hat and become an airline pilot?!

GET REAL! Housing allowance is for those who've done the hard yard. There were two paths in front of you when you made that decision, and you chose the cadet route. LIVE WITH IT!

My thoughts exactly.

Cxchildlabour: if you would rather have the housing instead of the free training, why didn't you start your flying career like the rest of the world did?

You say you would rather pay back the cost of training, but that's only half the equation here! In reality, you would have to pay back the cost of training and quit your job, and then hope to be rehired by a good enough airline after spending probably several years struggling. It's easy to just say you would pay back your training cost but keep the job!

And by the way, not only the CEP have to meet the standards to stay employed. Having been through the training system isn't what I called competing for a job....it's what you do when you have the job!

Like I said, someone needs a reality check.

[betpump5]

This is unfortunately a subject that will divide. For the past 6 months, I have been a huge advocate of the CPP Scheme and have recognised the benefits of having such a scheme. I have also been positive in the FH Wannabee forum in light of posts from our own guys who are pretty much trying to put cadets off from joining the scheme due to lack of Housing Allowance, air pollution, lack of space, and high cost of steak and chips.

Naturally myself and others could read these people (you know you who are) like a book and the basis of their comments was that if we start a culture of not paying housing allowance, then when will it be our turn to have our T&Cs reduced even further? Fair point or over-exagerrated? Its up to you to discuss.

The point is that if we start giving our cadets the same benefits that us DEFO/DEC/DESOs get, then surely the more senior guys will moan as this would be unfair - traning for free, then same benefits. On the other hand, if cadets are not given the same benefits as us, there will also be a group denouncing the CPP scheme and the cadets as it's a threat on our future T&Cs. (By the way IlovePX, you are a F'ing racist for that comment so zip it).

This is a terrible state to be in because whatever is decided, one half of us will not be happy. Any decision is robbing Peter to pay Paul. On another note, the latest DFO update does mention talks regarding a little allowance for LEPs upon reaching FO. What is the general feeling about this allowance. Can it satisfy both parties?