CX LEPs.... it's time to join
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Sleeve of wizard,
I think you're missing the point of what wowpeter is trying to say. If you read again, you'll see that he says many of the LEPs (I'm not suggesting all, there are always exceptions and 'job hunters' do slip through the recruitment net) had a genuine passion for flying when signing up for the cadet scheme. And if you look at most of us locals, you will find many of us had taken aviation very seriously at tertiary level already, with degrees in aeronautical engineering, aviation degree programs with ATPL's etc etc, many hold PPL's & CPL's prior to joining the cadet program. So for all those who like to tell cadets, "try paying for your own training", to justify their 'right' to an expat contract at CX (again I'm not suggesting anyone here makes such comments, but sadly I have certainly heard these said amongst recent/current DESOs...try convincing a LEP to join the AOA after hearing this sort of garbage, so that the AOA can negotiate a better housing deal for this expat?). I think many ex cadets may take offense to that when they had to complete such a course twice in some instances.
So, for some, upon realisation when you have embarked on this career choice that the future of your choosen career (aviation, to spell it out to you!) does not afford the lifestyle or meet the expectations that you had aspired to, then I think wowpeter has a prudent point that one must also assess the possibilities of a career change. If you take the average local SO who joins at the age of 22/23 after completing their degree, does a 65 retirement age (of course at the moment this is just hypothetical) only allow you to have 1 career and 1 company in 43 years?
I think you're missing the point of what wowpeter is trying to say. If you read again, you'll see that he says many of the LEPs (I'm not suggesting all, there are always exceptions and 'job hunters' do slip through the recruitment net) had a genuine passion for flying when signing up for the cadet scheme. And if you look at most of us locals, you will find many of us had taken aviation very seriously at tertiary level already, with degrees in aeronautical engineering, aviation degree programs with ATPL's etc etc, many hold PPL's & CPL's prior to joining the cadet program. So for all those who like to tell cadets, "try paying for your own training", to justify their 'right' to an expat contract at CX (again I'm not suggesting anyone here makes such comments, but sadly I have certainly heard these said amongst recent/current DESOs...try convincing a LEP to join the AOA after hearing this sort of garbage, so that the AOA can negotiate a better housing deal for this expat?). I think many ex cadets may take offense to that when they had to complete such a course twice in some instances.
So, for some, upon realisation when you have embarked on this career choice that the future of your choosen career (aviation, to spell it out to you!) does not afford the lifestyle or meet the expectations that you had aspired to, then I think wowpeter has a prudent point that one must also assess the possibilities of a career change. If you take the average local SO who joins at the age of 22/23 after completing their degree, does a 65 retirement age (of course at the moment this is just hypothetical) only allow you to have 1 career and 1 company in 43 years?
Last edited by 14MonthInterview; 13th Oct 2008 at 01:30. Reason: additions
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Just to stir the pot.
Were these conditions of employment not explained at interview? Were they not accepted? Perhaps some people need to look outside the world of Hong Kong and see what is going on in the real world.
There also needs to be sensible career aspirations, I'll have a command in ten years from joining as a cadet and if I don't then this is a bad career, get real!
If there were so many highly qualified pilots why did they not join other airlines?
Were these conditions of employment not explained at interview? Were they not accepted? Perhaps some people need to look outside the world of Hong Kong and see what is going on in the real world.
There also needs to be sensible career aspirations, I'll have a command in ten years from joining as a cadet and if I don't then this is a bad career, get real!
If there were so many highly qualified pilots why did they not join other airlines?
its£5perworddammit
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For me personally, I never had an end date to stop payment, as it felt lucky that I was still in a position to help when it could so easily have been me and it was a moral obligation, the right thing to do, you know - old fashioned principles - the sort us old farts go on about from time to time.
I was not around during the 49ers dispute. But some of us do hold "old fashioned principles" when a colleague falls upon hard times. It was an individual choice and we asked for nothing back in return.
it takes a lateral thinking person to see the bigger picture and ascertain that the gain may not be immediate or substantial in nature, and sometimes the gain may only be for the group as a whole and not the individual.
The current policy, where subs are based on salary exclusive of allowances, and LEPs (and based pilots) effectively pay higher contributions as a percentage of total income, simply illustrates the fact that the AOA chooses to ignore the issue entirely.
"The issue of greatest concern to you is unimportant to us, as you are in the minority. However please come join and pay us your dues anyway, and we will fight together for marginal improvements while ignoring the 50% pay disparity."
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controlledCHAOS said:
Mate, it is pretty obvious (to everyone) that you local Chinese are being discriminated against. If I were you guys, I'll stage some kind of a "walk-off" to show my anger.
So the LEP should do a "sick out" or something by themselves without the support of their fellow pilots? This illustrates the underlying sentiment of the AOA; locals should fight their own battles. However the LEPs are expected to join any industrial action in support of the expats COS. Sound like the "Bay of Pigs". The LEP will get more support from wearing a jock strap than from the AOA. Nuff said.
Mate, it is pretty obvious (to everyone) that you local Chinese are being discriminated against. If I were you guys, I'll stage some kind of a "walk-off" to show my anger.
So the LEP should do a "sick out" or something by themselves without the support of their fellow pilots? This illustrates the underlying sentiment of the AOA; locals should fight their own battles. However the LEPs are expected to join any industrial action in support of the expats COS. Sound like the "Bay of Pigs". The LEP will get more support from wearing a jock strap than from the AOA. Nuff said.
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Mrfox
You need to get your head around some basic facts and man-up;
1. Ex-pat allowances are not Salary... fact.. Some like to few them as income... good luck to them.... However, anyone taking that view is on a very slippery slope.
2. No where on the planet are earnings determined by fairness; they are determined by the market: fact. If ex-Pat allowances are not paid, HK would not get the talent it requires to be as successful as it is.... fact... However, this is changing as local talent comes through.... that's progress... all have to deal with it...
3. If you don't like your Salary/Allowance package... say so at the Interview... don't come on here blubbing or playing the race card after the event.
4. If the AOA represents good value to you: join; if it doesn't: don't. Coming on here moaning that others may or not be paying more or less is back in the blubbing category... man up...
5. If an expat pays for his training or endures/survives a military career and ends up in CX and does well out of being an expat... well played that person I say. If a LEP gets CX to pay for his training and he wants to play the ex-pat game... join Emirates 500 hrs after JFO... again I say.. well played that person.
We all make choices; some are well researched, others are based on luck... either way deal with it... but don't come on here blubbing like a Princess..
1. Ex-pat allowances are not Salary... fact.. Some like to few them as income... good luck to them.... However, anyone taking that view is on a very slippery slope.
2. No where on the planet are earnings determined by fairness; they are determined by the market: fact. If ex-Pat allowances are not paid, HK would not get the talent it requires to be as successful as it is.... fact... However, this is changing as local talent comes through.... that's progress... all have to deal with it...
3. If you don't like your Salary/Allowance package... say so at the Interview... don't come on here blubbing or playing the race card after the event.
4. If the AOA represents good value to you: join; if it doesn't: don't. Coming on here moaning that others may or not be paying more or less is back in the blubbing category... man up...
5. If an expat pays for his training or endures/survives a military career and ends up in CX and does well out of being an expat... well played that person I say. If a LEP gets CX to pay for his training and he wants to play the ex-pat game... join Emirates 500 hrs after JFO... again I say.. well played that person.
We all make choices; some are well researched, others are based on luck... either way deal with it... but don't come on here blubbing like a Princess..
its£5perworddammit
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You need to get your head around some basic facts and man-up;
1. Ex-pat allowances are not Salary... fact.. Some like to few them as income... good luck to them.... However, anyone taking that view is on a very slippery slope.
1. Ex-pat allowances are not Salary... fact.. Some like to few them as income... good luck to them.... However, anyone taking that view is on a very slippery slope.
2. No where on the planet are earnings determined by fairness; they are determined by the market: fact.
3. If you don't like your Salary/Allowance package... say so at the Interview... don't come on here blubbing or playing the race card after the event.
4. If the AOA represents good value to you: join; if it doesn't: don't. Coming on here moaning that others may or not be paying more or less is back in the blubbing category... man up...
5. If an expat pays for his training or endures/survives a military career and ends up in CX and does well out of being an expat... well played that person I say. If a LEP gets CX to pay for his training and he wants to play the ex-pat game... join Emirates 500 hrs after JFO... again I say.. well played that person.
We all make choices; some are well researched, others are based on luck... either way deal with it... but don't come on here blubbing like
a Princess..
a Princess..
Mr Fox, Dixi Normus,
When the AOA represented the LEPs over bypass allowances not one affected person was prepared to put their name to it. That meant that the earliest backpay date possible was JULY. If one who was owed for longer than that had been prepared to put his name to it it would have gone back further.
I resent the implication that the AOA does nothing for you.
When the AOA represented the LEPs over bypass allowances not one affected person was prepared to put their name to it. That meant that the earliest backpay date possible was JULY. If one who was owed for longer than that had been prepared to put his name to it it would have gone back further.
I resent the implication that the AOA does nothing for you.
its£5perworddammit
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I resent the implication that the AOA does nothing for you.
BusyB, perhaps you can post a timeline of the efforts of the AOA in securing the above agreements?
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Mrfox
Your replies don't sound terse... just shallow...
Learn to deal with things as they are; not as you want them to be... it will save you a lot of angst and enable you to focus on what is important.
"Salary. Remuneration. Income. Money. Are you arguing semantics just for the sake of arguing.."
Not semantics... far from it... Husbands and wives/ unmarried couples don't get fired/ jailed for each collecting a salary; but they do for both collecting housing. A-scalers are out favour due to their high salary, but pilots with 3 kids collecting Education and Rental are not prejudiced against. Not expressing any judgement on these examples; just stating facts.
A question for you (or anybody else)...
If a LEP pilot on by-pass gets a payment to compensate him for the Housing Allowance he is not receiving because of delayed Command; would you support the notion that by-passed based ex-pat pilots should also get a payment to compensate them for the Housing and Education allowance they are not getting because of their delayed Commands (assuming they are prepared to come to HK)?
Learn to deal with things as they are; not as you want them to be... it will save you a lot of angst and enable you to focus on what is important.
"Salary. Remuneration. Income. Money. Are you arguing semantics just for the sake of arguing.."
Not semantics... far from it... Husbands and wives/ unmarried couples don't get fired/ jailed for each collecting a salary; but they do for both collecting housing. A-scalers are out favour due to their high salary, but pilots with 3 kids collecting Education and Rental are not prejudiced against. Not expressing any judgement on these examples; just stating facts.
A question for you (or anybody else)...
If a LEP pilot on by-pass gets a payment to compensate him for the Housing Allowance he is not receiving because of delayed Command; would you support the notion that by-passed based ex-pat pilots should also get a payment to compensate them for the Housing and Education allowance they are not getting because of their delayed Commands (assuming they are prepared to come to HK)?
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Now you tell me what you have achieved for yourselves
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Sleeve_of_Wizard... Flight crew recruitment do have a pretty good idea of what they are doing, and that's why most cadet succeed in their career at CX. And most LEP definitely did not join because of the money and money is not everything... If it is because of the money, I will have never quit my previous job to come work for CX... I have taken a paycut to do this job... and a lot of others as well... again, as I have said, it is because of our love for aviation, not unlike most expat pilot... However, that's where the similarity ends... a lot of LEP look at their career path differently than an expat pilot... Most expat pilot looks at their career as an airline pilot (Cathay, or any other major careers)... so once the expat pilot lands their CX job, they are more likely to stay as they have worked for the past 7 to 10 years to just get to the job at Cathay Pacific... Even if an expat is to leave, they will only do so if they can land another job at another major carriers. Locals is a little bit different, a lot of locals who job CX are relatively early in their career path... for most, this could be their first or second real job after graduations... hence, when locals look at their career, most of us will consider other alternatives as well... afterall, no one should make a decision to work for a company for 30 to 40 years without considering other alternatives that might allow you to have a better career in aviation or other fields.
BusyB... As for the other comments with regards to AOA trying to fight for the by-pass pay allowance package for LEP FO... have the AOA try to contact those FO who might or might not be on the AOA? I personally donno any LEP FO who are recieving by-pass pay... but I know if I am one of them, I will definitly put my hand up, but unfortunately, I am no where near that stage of my career yet... I have a feelings that the reason why no one put their hands up is because none of those LEP FO are part of the AOA and probably do not even know the AOA are trying to do something for them. So I don't think it is because local doesn't want to stand up and achieve something for themselves. I for one if the AOA is willing to fight for a few of the local issues, namely the instructor pilot program (and how these can get expat package, when they are sponsor by CX... [discriminating again local cadet pilot?]) and the LEP allowance, I will put my hands up right away and a lot of locals that I know will probably do the same as well... I think the local issue that AOA is fighting only involve a very small group of locals at the moment and a lot of them are not AOA members and hence none of them have any idea about this issue...
Liam Gallagher... your so call facts are very twisted...
1) Expat allowance... is part of your pay package... hence it is partly taxable income according to HK tax rule (not all of them taxable but most of them)... so it is part of your pay but it is not pay directly to you as cash... so it does matters...
2)
I keep hearing this over and over again... but to attract talent, it does not means you need to discriminate against a particular group of pilots... if the current pay structure is not sufficient enough to attract expat, then increase the base pay until it is enough... this is exactly what most banks and multi-national corporations have done over the years... CX is one of the few remaining companies (namely the swire ones) that still offer the so call ex-Pat package to divide and conquer their pilots... although having said that, the anti-discrimination law in HK is slowly moving towards the right direction, give it another 10 years, I am sure the whole expat package will be completely illegal...
3)
Hum... no one is trying to play the race card... I don't think anyone said expat should not get their allowance... all I am saying is the LEP should get it if they are living in HK... most of the time it is the expat that is playing the race card by saying that local does not deserve to get the allowance... does it hurts them that a group of pilot is trying to better their package? No... so why some expat find it so offensive that local are just trying to better their package, exactly like what the expat is trying to do... So why such a big fuss?
4)
What's wrong with blubbing on a pilot rumors network? hum...
5)
So who is playing the race card now? Who thinks their training is more superior to others? Also if you want to talk about paying for your own training or a military career, I can write a huge essay about why that is irrelevant (especially when the company is sponsoring the instructor program with expat benefits on return to CX... also most cadets have pay for their previous flying training experience [PPL, CPL, etc... not unlike most expat]...)
Most of the time, LEP have no complains about expat pilots... we never judge their experience and their flying... because we know they are irrelevant... what is your background should not determine your package if you are doing the same job... A lot of the times, I think it is because of the expat mentality that is dividing the whole pilot group and dividing the AOA... especially when ones think they deserve better than others (DEFO, Oasis DEC... those pilots did nothing wrong, it is not their fault that the company hires them... it is the company fault that they bend the contract and it is our fault that we let CX do it...)... but because of this constant arguing over stuff like this, we can never get a consent and never achieve anything with the company... everyone should have the mentality that is... same job same pay/package... it shouldn't matter where are they coming from...
BusyB... As for the other comments with regards to AOA trying to fight for the by-pass pay allowance package for LEP FO... have the AOA try to contact those FO who might or might not be on the AOA? I personally donno any LEP FO who are recieving by-pass pay... but I know if I am one of them, I will definitly put my hand up, but unfortunately, I am no where near that stage of my career yet... I have a feelings that the reason why no one put their hands up is because none of those LEP FO are part of the AOA and probably do not even know the AOA are trying to do something for them. So I don't think it is because local doesn't want to stand up and achieve something for themselves. I for one if the AOA is willing to fight for a few of the local issues, namely the instructor pilot program (and how these can get expat package, when they are sponsor by CX... [discriminating again local cadet pilot?]) and the LEP allowance, I will put my hands up right away and a lot of locals that I know will probably do the same as well... I think the local issue that AOA is fighting only involve a very small group of locals at the moment and a lot of them are not AOA members and hence none of them have any idea about this issue...
Liam Gallagher... your so call facts are very twisted...
1) Expat allowance... is part of your pay package... hence it is partly taxable income according to HK tax rule (not all of them taxable but most of them)... so it is part of your pay but it is not pay directly to you as cash... so it does matters...
2)
2. No where on the planet are earnings determined by fairness; they are determined by the market: fact. If ex-Pat allowances are not paid, HK would not get the talent it requires to be as successful as it is.... fact... However, this is changing as local talent comes through.... that's progress... all have to deal with it...
3)
3. If you don't like your Salary/Allowance package... say so at the Interview... don't come on here blubbing or playing the race card after the event.
4)
4. If the AOA represents good value to you: join; if it doesn't: don't. Coming on here moaning that others may or not be paying more or less is back in the blubbing category... man up...
5)
5. If an expat pays for his training or endures/survives a military career and ends up in CX and does well out of being an expat... well played that person I say. If a LEP gets CX to pay for his training and he wants to play the ex-pat game... join Emirates 500 hrs after JFO... again I say.. well played that person.
Most of the time, LEP have no complains about expat pilots... we never judge their experience and their flying... because we know they are irrelevant... what is your background should not determine your package if you are doing the same job... A lot of the times, I think it is because of the expat mentality that is dividing the whole pilot group and dividing the AOA... especially when ones think they deserve better than others (DEFO, Oasis DEC... those pilots did nothing wrong, it is not their fault that the company hires them... it is the company fault that they bend the contract and it is our fault that we let CX do it...)... but because of this constant arguing over stuff like this, we can never get a consent and never achieve anything with the company... everyone should have the mentality that is... same job same pay/package... it shouldn't matter where are they coming from...
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Wowpeter
I think you are missing some important issues.
Companies employ from 2 markets, ex-pat and local. The market norm (globally) is that for a company (Bank, Hospital, Education Authority, Factory... etc) to entice an employee out of his home country, the company pays a Housing Allowance, Education and probably an enhanced salary. This person is generally known as an "expat". Those employed from the local market (these can be indigenous people or foreigners) are known as "locally employed" and are not paid the allowances and may be paid a lesser salary. That is the way life is...FACT
The company pays this premium to attract the talent it requires; it doesn't do it out of some colonial racism or to divide a workforce. The day they don't need ex-pats or the day the premium is no longer required, is the day this all stops and their profits increase.... FACT
You say, why not just increase the Base pay until talent is attracted? Some companies do; but by doing so they, generally, only attract a certain type of person. This system is unattractive to people with school aged children, and would favour single people or people staying for a short time. Equally, it is inflexible to meet the changing needs of employees (arrival of kids.... <ahem> departure of wives etc)
CX have chosen their way to get talent and it suits them... that is their right. Both you and I had a Contract put in front of us that we both willingly signed... did you express all your views at time of signing... if not.. why not?
On the points you raised and using the same numbering;
1. If these allowances are pay... why can't husband and wives both claim them. I don't have kids, my friend has 3, how come he's "paid" more than me?
Why does the Mortagage Allowance only last 15 years; if it's pay, it should last all my career..
2. Who is being discriminated against. If it is you... why did you join? HK is changing and perhaps the day is coming when ex-pat allowances will no longer need to be paid, however in the present day do you believe CX could recruit and, more importantly, retain sufficient numbers of pilots without the allowances.
3. Mrfox put out some fairly emotive stuff and certainly played the race card. Unfortunately, remuneration is not about what is deserved... if it was Nurses and Teachers would be paid more than us
If you wish to seek to improve your package, go ahead... but don't do it by saying the fact you don't get X Y or Z is because of your racial background.
4. Blubbing is never allowed... look between your legs and grow a pair.. (even if you are female)
5. How the heck is what I wrote racist? How the heck is what I wrote a comment on the quality of someone's training or background? Calm down and re-read it.
Finally, a question for you. You are a qualified pilot; your skills are globally in demand. What package would it take for you to go to Emirates?
PS I only chose Emirates because it is an airline that's comparable to CX.
Companies employ from 2 markets, ex-pat and local. The market norm (globally) is that for a company (Bank, Hospital, Education Authority, Factory... etc) to entice an employee out of his home country, the company pays a Housing Allowance, Education and probably an enhanced salary. This person is generally known as an "expat". Those employed from the local market (these can be indigenous people or foreigners) are known as "locally employed" and are not paid the allowances and may be paid a lesser salary. That is the way life is...FACT
The company pays this premium to attract the talent it requires; it doesn't do it out of some colonial racism or to divide a workforce. The day they don't need ex-pats or the day the premium is no longer required, is the day this all stops and their profits increase.... FACT
You say, why not just increase the Base pay until talent is attracted? Some companies do; but by doing so they, generally, only attract a certain type of person. This system is unattractive to people with school aged children, and would favour single people or people staying for a short time. Equally, it is inflexible to meet the changing needs of employees (arrival of kids.... <ahem> departure of wives etc)
CX have chosen their way to get talent and it suits them... that is their right. Both you and I had a Contract put in front of us that we both willingly signed... did you express all your views at time of signing... if not.. why not?
On the points you raised and using the same numbering;
1. If these allowances are pay... why can't husband and wives both claim them. I don't have kids, my friend has 3, how come he's "paid" more than me?
Why does the Mortagage Allowance only last 15 years; if it's pay, it should last all my career..
2. Who is being discriminated against. If it is you... why did you join? HK is changing and perhaps the day is coming when ex-pat allowances will no longer need to be paid, however in the present day do you believe CX could recruit and, more importantly, retain sufficient numbers of pilots without the allowances.
3. Mrfox put out some fairly emotive stuff and certainly played the race card. Unfortunately, remuneration is not about what is deserved... if it was Nurses and Teachers would be paid more than us
If you wish to seek to improve your package, go ahead... but don't do it by saying the fact you don't get X Y or Z is because of your racial background. 4. Blubbing is never allowed... look between your legs and grow a pair.. (even if you are female)
5. How the heck is what I wrote racist? How the heck is what I wrote a comment on the quality of someone's training or background? Calm down and re-read it.
Finally, a question for you. You are a qualified pilot; your skills are globally in demand. What package would it take for you to go to Emirates?
PS I only chose Emirates because it is an airline that's comparable to CX.
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I've told you what has recently been done for you.
Now you tell me what you have achieved for yourselves
Now you tell me what you have achieved for yourselves
The reason I brought up the matter of AOA contribution is because of the following post, wayyy back from the first page of this thread:
There are some LEPs I have spoken to who claim the AOA are taking credit for what the local pilot committee essentially negotiated and it wasn't until the deal was nearly done that the AOA stepped in completed the final touches.
Whether or not this is entirely true, it seems to be the feeling amongst the locals and it will take a lot more than this to get the locals to rejoin/join the AOA.
Whether or not this is entirely true, it seems to be the feeling amongst the locals and it will take a lot more than this to get the locals to rejoin/join the AOA.
Liam,
Not semantics... far from it... Husbands and wives/ unmarried couples don't get fired/ jailed for each collecting a salary; but they do for both collecting housing.
A-scalers are out favour due to their high salary, but pilots with 3 kids collecting Education and Rental are not prejudiced against. Not expressing any judgement on these examples; just stating facts.
I hold no prejudice against anyone who is on a better package.
It appears though that many on the better packages holds prejudice to those on inferior packages.
Mrfox put out some fairly emotive stuff and certainly played the race card.
...Reaching the COCKPIT, I was stopped by AN EXPAT. "Are you A LOCAL?" he demanded. Without a word, I SHOWED him my FLYING ABILITIES/YEARS OF SERVICE. He looked at it and then spat out: "Yes, but you are still A LOCAL!"...
Who is being discriminated against. If it is you... why did you join?
If a LEP pilot on by-pass gets a payment to compensate him for the Housing Allowance he is not receiving because of delayed Command; would you support the notion that by-passed based ex-pat pilots should also get a payment to compensate them for the Housing and Education allowance they are not getting because of their delayed Commands (assuming they are prepared to come to HK)?
But to answer your question - yes, I'll support motions that strive towards bringing the Cathay pilot groups on to a common remuneration package, bringing with it greater solidarity and collective bargaining power.
Finally, a question for you. You are a qualified pilot; your skills are globally in demand. What package would it take for you to go to Emirates?
EK package + merits of living in Dubai > CX package + merits of living in HK + sunk cost of relocating family from HK + sunk cost of seniority in CX.
Now tell me... do the priorities of a "Local" really seem that different from that of an "Expat"?
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Liam Gallagher...
This is an argument that is never going to end... you think I am missing the point... and I think you are missing my point as well...
As I have said before in all of my earlier post in this topic... Cathay (and Swire) is one of the few company in HK that still employs the whole expat package and local package... if you look at most other companies in other industries that employs a lot of expat, there is no such thing as expat package... expat and local get the same package... as long as expat and local are on the same level staff, they get the same benefits... simply as that... and this is exactly what the locals will want to see Cathay adopts...
Also another ticking point that piss off a lot of locals is how the company use expat and local package to distinguish expat and local staff but in fact, it is all smoke and mirrors... the whole expat and local are used to divide the pilot group (ie: so that LEP won't join the AOA), it has nothing to on being expat or not... Some good example is why are pilots hired to local terms (ie: ex-Oasis guys) are allow to convert back to expat package after 3 years? Why aren't the LEP locals on locals terms be allow to convert to expat package? What are so different between ex-Oasis and LEP besides the fact that one is a gweilo and one happens to born in HK? You even said it in your last post, if foreigner are hired from the local market, they are consider locally employed... So why are they getting special treatment? Is this not discrimination? Also, why are those who are on the instructor program, allow to be paid expat package? They aren't really the traditional expat per say... they are CX sponsored pilot... they are not qualified pilot before their sponsorship so they are no different than most locals... so why should they be on expat package? I thought the whole point of expat is that they brings valuable skills that is otherwise not available in HK... but this doesn't really apply to those who are hired for the instructor program, does it?... so why are they getting special treatment as well? Isn't this discrimination as well? (There's a lot of other issues related to the instructor program that sit on the grey area of the law that I will not mention until I consult with AOA and an employment law expert...) So for me, it is the bending of the rules by CX management, that pisses me off... the CX management themselves have blur the difference between an expat and locals... and since there is really no difference between local and expat (based on all the new initiative by CX management), they should therefore be on the same package... all the excuses that the management gives to LEP during the local pilot forum about why LEP are not eligible for expat allowance are no longer valid (CX management are the ones who invalidate all of their own arguments)... hence it gives those who are on local terms more reason to fight for equal pay.
A lot of the time, we LEP are not happy because the ex-cadet (all LEP) are always being put at the bottom of the food chain... even the new instructor program, DEFO at out port, and those ex-Oasis direct entry guys, are higher up on the food chain than we ex-cadet... this is what piss me off... and this is the kind of stuff that AOA need to look into if they want more LEP on AOA... I for one, will be writing to AOA shortly regarding a lot of these issues that I have mentioned... and hopefully stuff like the above issues, will one day be put onto the AOA agenda and thus encourages more LEP to join the AOA.
This is an argument that is never going to end... you think I am missing the point... and I think you are missing my point as well...
As I have said before in all of my earlier post in this topic... Cathay (and Swire) is one of the few company in HK that still employs the whole expat package and local package... if you look at most other companies in other industries that employs a lot of expat, there is no such thing as expat package... expat and local get the same package... as long as expat and local are on the same level staff, they get the same benefits... simply as that... and this is exactly what the locals will want to see Cathay adopts...
Also another ticking point that piss off a lot of locals is how the company use expat and local package to distinguish expat and local staff but in fact, it is all smoke and mirrors... the whole expat and local are used to divide the pilot group (ie: so that LEP won't join the AOA), it has nothing to on being expat or not... Some good example is why are pilots hired to local terms (ie: ex-Oasis guys) are allow to convert back to expat package after 3 years? Why aren't the LEP locals on locals terms be allow to convert to expat package? What are so different between ex-Oasis and LEP besides the fact that one is a gweilo and one happens to born in HK? You even said it in your last post, if foreigner are hired from the local market, they are consider locally employed... So why are they getting special treatment? Is this not discrimination? Also, why are those who are on the instructor program, allow to be paid expat package? They aren't really the traditional expat per say... they are CX sponsored pilot... they are not qualified pilot before their sponsorship so they are no different than most locals... so why should they be on expat package? I thought the whole point of expat is that they brings valuable skills that is otherwise not available in HK... but this doesn't really apply to those who are hired for the instructor program, does it?... so why are they getting special treatment as well? Isn't this discrimination as well? (There's a lot of other issues related to the instructor program that sit on the grey area of the law that I will not mention until I consult with AOA and an employment law expert...) So for me, it is the bending of the rules by CX management, that pisses me off... the CX management themselves have blur the difference between an expat and locals... and since there is really no difference between local and expat (based on all the new initiative by CX management), they should therefore be on the same package... all the excuses that the management gives to LEP during the local pilot forum about why LEP are not eligible for expat allowance are no longer valid (CX management are the ones who invalidate all of their own arguments)... hence it gives those who are on local terms more reason to fight for equal pay.
A lot of the time, we LEP are not happy because the ex-cadet (all LEP) are always being put at the bottom of the food chain... even the new instructor program, DEFO at out port, and those ex-Oasis direct entry guys, are higher up on the food chain than we ex-cadet... this is what piss me off... and this is the kind of stuff that AOA need to look into if they want more LEP on AOA... I for one, will be writing to AOA shortly regarding a lot of these issues that I have mentioned... and hopefully stuff like the above issues, will one day be put onto the AOA agenda and thus encourages more LEP to join the AOA.
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For me it’s simple.
EK package + merits of living in Dubai > CX package + merits of living in HK + sunk cost of relocating family from HK + sunk cost of seniority in CX.
EK package + merits of living in Dubai > CX package + merits of living in HK + sunk cost of relocating family from HK + sunk cost of seniority in CX.
You think Hong Kong is an easy place to live for most expats...what Dubai is to you, Hong Kong is to me. I stay because of the package, take away the expat benefits and I'll be out of here faster than Adolf Chen can hand out Lai Sees.
Last edited by Dragon69; 14th Oct 2008 at 00:22.
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Furthermore, following some of the above arguments, what about our based colleagues then, shouldn't they be entitled to what you already receive living in your home country (ie. 13 months and a special allowance for those who are captain). In fact you pay a much less tax rate in Hong Kong, compared to anywhere else, so why not adjust the based salaries to reflect the higher income tax. After all they are doing the same job as you, it's only fair, but I don't see you complaining about that!
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ref wowpeters last post
Wowpeter,
Firstly, before you hook into the following thinking it is a race thing, please appreciate it is not, as my comments which follow with reference to cadets are applicable to the white fellas too, not just HK locals. Unfortunately, my bullsh
t antenna started twitching after reading some of your views, likewise, these are just views, albeit mine.
Clearly HK has been unable to recruit from traditional feeder areas such as military and GA within HK, because to all intents and purposes, it didn't, nor is it likely, to exist. Therefore the company needed to recruit from elsewhere.
These elsewhere places had pilots with varying experience levels and quite diverse backgrounds. The company was, and still is to a degree, able to cherry pick those it wanted, but to entice, had to make the package attractive. So as said pilots were often in their home country living in what we would call a normal house, big back yard, maybe a swimming pool, nice schools etc, in order to provide a similar environment in HK, the allowances for a decent school and accomodation something better than a 760sq ft shoe box were, and still are provided.
Remember these are guys who had SIGNIFICANT experience in many facets of GA or the military, and who will probably have had to use their aquired skills to stay alive in many a hairy situation. They are hired by CX as future commanders for that skill, experience and will to live, to protect Cathays safe reputation. They were hired not only for what they do on a day to day basis, but for what they CAN do when the **** hits the fan
.
By comparison, many of the cadets had nothing to offer by way of a proven track record, and the cynic would say it was either a cheap way of putting bums on seats, or a political move with the cadet programme inception in the late 80's, as the 97 handover was coming soon, and Swires wished to stay in favour with the new masters up North. Either way, apart from a few exceptions, the new cadets generally bought very little to the party and effectively were there to make up the numbers. Thats not meant to be a put down, its just the way it was. If you think that your extra experience over the years is worth extra, what do you think has happend to the experience levels of the expats you've been sitting next to? Obviously that increases too, is it worth more? yes - ergo the salary increments. So sorry mate, that in itself a flawed argument to justify more moolah for the ex-cadets, and still doesnt justify the housing and schooling.
The commonly held view at the time was that local candidate would have been living with mum, dad, his sister and granny in the afore mentioned shoebox, and should be eternally grateful to CX for offering a job to someone who couldn't even fly. I admit in the early days, a few individuals had some experience, but this pool rapidly dried up.
However, lack of experience, marital staus for many and maturity, meant that cadets were happy to sign up for the package knowing they were 'local' and by default on local terms. Therefore, it seems a little late in the day to say we should all be treated equally when you knowingly agreed to the terms and conditions offered at the time. As pilots, we spend a lot of time thinking of 'wotifs" and looking ahead. If you couldn't look ahead and see that if you end up with your own wife (or someone elses
)and kid and THEN realise you were going to have to pay for your own accom and schooling (like most people in HK!!), then what does that say about your abilities/potential as a pilot/future captain - not a lot from where I'm sitting.
So suck it up or leave!
What it comes down to is the guys hired from overseas are compensated for the experience and skills they bring, whereas the guys who elect to go through the cadet programme offered nothing but potential, and were paid accordingly. In many ways, that your basic salary scale is on a par with experienced crew hired from elsewhere, could even be thought as generous on the part of the company. Anecdotally, at the inception of the programme, the precurser to B scales was discussed, such that after promotion to FO, the scale for ex cadet FOs was to be different(less!) than normal FOs. Clearly this penny pinching never came to fruition, but shows the esteem, or lack thereof, that some at the time held you in.
As always, if the company thought you were worth more, you would be paid more. That you are not paid more, will show effectively what you are now worth - the phrase 'market forces' spring to mind. Many local term guys from the cadet programme still seem to have tickets on themselves, and seriously think that from the outset they should have been on the same package as the guys who uprooted their wife and kids to move to HK. That attitude is a little ironic when many locals think the expats are up themselves.
I assume you liked the job to start with which is why you signed up. I can appreciate that ones expectations and aspirations can change with marital changes, kids, maturity etc, and it is natural to always want more.
This company is unlikely to just give you more, so it leaves you with 2 options: either appreciate it for what it is, take the money offered and live with it, OR, take the skills and relatively limited experience you have gained over your time in CX and head off into the real world and get the job you think you deserve. If you did, you may face a harsh reality check that you really are not as valuable or experienced as you think you are.
However, I genuinely wish you the best of luck in your endeavours in the harsh wide world of aviation if you feel brave enough to compete with all the others on your own merits, on a perceived level playing field. You may find that too is sloped - no pun intended.
Brgds to all.
Firstly, before you hook into the following thinking it is a race thing, please appreciate it is not, as my comments which follow with reference to cadets are applicable to the white fellas too, not just HK locals. Unfortunately, my bullsh
t antenna started twitching after reading some of your views, likewise, these are just views, albeit mine.Clearly HK has been unable to recruit from traditional feeder areas such as military and GA within HK, because to all intents and purposes, it didn't, nor is it likely, to exist. Therefore the company needed to recruit from elsewhere.
These elsewhere places had pilots with varying experience levels and quite diverse backgrounds. The company was, and still is to a degree, able to cherry pick those it wanted, but to entice, had to make the package attractive. So as said pilots were often in their home country living in what we would call a normal house, big back yard, maybe a swimming pool, nice schools etc, in order to provide a similar environment in HK, the allowances for a decent school and accomodation something better than a 760sq ft shoe box were, and still are provided.
Remember these are guys who had SIGNIFICANT experience in many facets of GA or the military, and who will probably have had to use their aquired skills to stay alive in many a hairy situation. They are hired by CX as future commanders for that skill, experience and will to live, to protect Cathays safe reputation. They were hired not only for what they do on a day to day basis, but for what they CAN do when the **** hits the fan
.By comparison, many of the cadets had nothing to offer by way of a proven track record, and the cynic would say it was either a cheap way of putting bums on seats, or a political move with the cadet programme inception in the late 80's, as the 97 handover was coming soon, and Swires wished to stay in favour with the new masters up North. Either way, apart from a few exceptions, the new cadets generally bought very little to the party and effectively were there to make up the numbers. Thats not meant to be a put down, its just the way it was. If you think that your extra experience over the years is worth extra, what do you think has happend to the experience levels of the expats you've been sitting next to? Obviously that increases too, is it worth more? yes - ergo the salary increments. So sorry mate, that in itself a flawed argument to justify more moolah for the ex-cadets, and still doesnt justify the housing and schooling.
The commonly held view at the time was that local candidate would have been living with mum, dad, his sister and granny in the afore mentioned shoebox, and should be eternally grateful to CX for offering a job to someone who couldn't even fly. I admit in the early days, a few individuals had some experience, but this pool rapidly dried up.
However, lack of experience, marital staus for many and maturity, meant that cadets were happy to sign up for the package knowing they were 'local' and by default on local terms. Therefore, it seems a little late in the day to say we should all be treated equally when you knowingly agreed to the terms and conditions offered at the time. As pilots, we spend a lot of time thinking of 'wotifs" and looking ahead. If you couldn't look ahead and see that if you end up with your own wife (or someone elses
)and kid and THEN realise you were going to have to pay for your own accom and schooling (like most people in HK!!), then what does that say about your abilities/potential as a pilot/future captain - not a lot from where I'm sitting. So suck it up or leave!
What it comes down to is the guys hired from overseas are compensated for the experience and skills they bring, whereas the guys who elect to go through the cadet programme offered nothing but potential, and were paid accordingly. In many ways, that your basic salary scale is on a par with experienced crew hired from elsewhere, could even be thought as generous on the part of the company. Anecdotally, at the inception of the programme, the precurser to B scales was discussed, such that after promotion to FO, the scale for ex cadet FOs was to be different(less!) than normal FOs. Clearly this penny pinching never came to fruition, but shows the esteem, or lack thereof, that some at the time held you in.
As always, if the company thought you were worth more, you would be paid more. That you are not paid more, will show effectively what you are now worth - the phrase 'market forces' spring to mind. Many local term guys from the cadet programme still seem to have tickets on themselves, and seriously think that from the outset they should have been on the same package as the guys who uprooted their wife and kids to move to HK. That attitude is a little ironic when many locals think the expats are up themselves.
I assume you liked the job to start with which is why you signed up. I can appreciate that ones expectations and aspirations can change with marital changes, kids, maturity etc, and it is natural to always want more.
This company is unlikely to just give you more, so it leaves you with 2 options: either appreciate it for what it is, take the money offered and live with it, OR, take the skills and relatively limited experience you have gained over your time in CX and head off into the real world and get the job you think you deserve. If you did, you may face a harsh reality check that you really are not as valuable or experienced as you think you are.
However, I genuinely wish you the best of luck in your endeavours in the harsh wide world of aviation if you feel brave enough to compete with all the others on your own merits, on a perceived level playing field. You may find that too is sloped - no pun intended.
Brgds to all.
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Wowpeter
I think this a worthy debate and I am trying to get my head around your argument.
I note you are in the AOA; if that works for you... well played you....
You say "the whole expat and local are used to divide the pilot group (ie: so that LEP won't join the AOA), it has nothing to on being expat or not.."
The primary, if not sole, reason for the expat package is to recruit and retain talent in HK. You claim Swire is one of the few Companies to pay an expat package; I must be mixing with the wrong group in HK. Major Banks, Law Firms, Insurance Companies, ESF, Universities all entice people to HK with a package (better than mine normally
). Typically, they seem to stay a year or 2 and some then go to another country, again on an ex-pat package.
Again the question to you are Mrfox, if the package was not paid, would CX recruit and retain enough pilots? It's a simple question... any chance of answer.
Whilst we all have issues with the way the ex-Oasis recruiting has been handled; my understanding is they were recruited essentially on COS08 and as such they do "three years" and then can come to HK (as whatever seniority will allow) and they will get the ex-pat package (whatever that will be in 3 years). I find this consistent with CX recruitment policy. It would be interesting if an ex-cx cadet left CX, joined Oasis and then rejoined Cx and was told he was back on local terms.... has that happened?
As for the Instructor program, are you saying that if you have a Chinese face you don't the expat package, and if you have another sort of face you do? Or is it the case that if you meet the requirements for DESO and then join the Instructor Program your "career" progress is preserved as if you had beome a DESO?
Bottom line; I hear accusations of racism, sexism, ageism all the time on the flightdeck.... we are all victims... Most of the time CX is just doing what is in the contract... did any of us raise this at time of signing; have any of us been up to NR's office... or do we just come on here blubbing....
Spare me Mrfox's cute (but shallow) answer... Again, you guys are all respected, highly qualified aviators: what would it take for you to go Emirates... Housing Yes or No... Education Yes or No, Bonus at the completion of Contract (3 years) Yes or No.... or are you saying... if a local UAE doesn't get the allowance; I don't want it either.....
Go on, surprise me and give a substantive answer...
I note you are in the AOA; if that works for you... well played you....
You say "the whole expat and local are used to divide the pilot group (ie: so that LEP won't join the AOA), it has nothing to on being expat or not.."
The primary, if not sole, reason for the expat package is to recruit and retain talent in HK. You claim Swire is one of the few Companies to pay an expat package; I must be mixing with the wrong group in HK. Major Banks, Law Firms, Insurance Companies, ESF, Universities all entice people to HK with a package (better than mine normally
). Typically, they seem to stay a year or 2 and some then go to another country, again on an ex-pat package.Again the question to you are Mrfox, if the package was not paid, would CX recruit and retain enough pilots? It's a simple question... any chance of answer.
Whilst we all have issues with the way the ex-Oasis recruiting has been handled; my understanding is they were recruited essentially on COS08 and as such they do "three years" and then can come to HK (as whatever seniority will allow) and they will get the ex-pat package (whatever that will be in 3 years
). I find this consistent with CX recruitment policy. It would be interesting if an ex-cx cadet left CX, joined Oasis and then rejoined Cx and was told he was back on local terms.... has that happened?As for the Instructor program, are you saying that if you have a Chinese face you don't the expat package, and if you have another sort of face you do? Or is it the case that if you meet the requirements for DESO and then join the Instructor Program your "career" progress is preserved as if you had beome a DESO?
Bottom line; I hear accusations of racism, sexism, ageism all the time on the flightdeck.... we are all victims... Most of the time CX is just doing what is in the contract... did any of us raise this at time of signing; have any of us been up to NR's office... or do we just come on here blubbing....
Spare me Mrfox's cute (but shallow) answer... Again, you guys are all respected, highly qualified aviators: what would it take for you to go Emirates... Housing Yes or No... Education Yes or No, Bonus at the completion of Contract (3 years) Yes or No.... or are you saying... if a local UAE doesn't get the allowance; I don't want it either.....
Go on, surprise me and give a substantive answer...
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I dont get what all the debate is about. Its quite simple.
We are all the same in the company's. An LEP in the cockpit does the same job as a crusty ole brit. You cant be a better pilot than someone else in the airlines. A to B, thats it, thats all that counts. Not background, smoothness, detailed briefs, or long sleeves.
Therefore we should ALL get paid the same. If CX paided for an LEP's training, then they should pay that back, but not get paid less for doing the same job.
If you want to use the argument of "attracting qualified pilots" therefore have to pay expat rates...then CX should set pilot pay per a lottery. See who will take the least amount of pay to do the job. Im sure its easier to attract pilots now compared to 20 years ago, therefore all new joiners should get paid LESS. Simple economics. Same seat, Same pay...sound familar?
The AOA cant even help itself, let alone others. Why should LEPs join? To help expats get more pay????
We are all the same in the company's. An LEP in the cockpit does the same job as a crusty ole brit. You cant be a better pilot than someone else in the airlines. A to B, thats it, thats all that counts. Not background, smoothness, detailed briefs, or long sleeves.
Therefore we should ALL get paid the same. If CX paided for an LEP's training, then they should pay that back, but not get paid less for doing the same job.
If you want to use the argument of "attracting qualified pilots" therefore have to pay expat rates...then CX should set pilot pay per a lottery. See who will take the least amount of pay to do the job. Im sure its easier to attract pilots now compared to 20 years ago, therefore all new joiners should get paid LESS. Simple economics. Same seat, Same pay...sound familar?
The AOA cant even help itself, let alone others. Why should LEPs join? To help expats get more pay????