CX LEPs.... it's time to join
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Expat COS
ACMS, I accept that things have changed over time and that CX is not the same company with which I enjoyed my time in their employ. What I am not sure of is that the only thing which attracts pilots to join CX is the "Expat package". Many, if not all, the pilots whom I know and with whom I flew in CX initially came to CX because of the opportunity they saw to fly with an expanding company in good aircraft and be well paid, in comparison to where they had been. Most were relatively happy with their lot in the employ of CX. Some, surprisingly often from previously poorly paid backgrounds, came to expect to be treated like "kings". My feelings after reading a lot of the posts here is that life, for some, must be a very miserable existence in CX today. My question to those so unhappy is, and I think it is a fair one, why not pull up stumps and find an employer with whom life would be more fulfilling? Seems pretty simple to me, but there again I am just a silly old 68 year old who would not understand what it is like to do it tough, like bloody hell I don't.
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Here's a question, if having a HKID before you join CX makes you a local and eligible for the cadet program, why are the OASIS/KA guys hired FROM HKG with a HKID (some with permanent IDs) hired on expat terms???????? fair enough it's after their 3 year service on the freighter, but they still get EXPAT terms after 3 years, while a LOCAL Captain who's been here over 10 years never gets it? 
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Market Forces
For those of you still confused and as stated by Cathay Pacific Airways Management in previous correspondence, Cathay Pacific Airways Personnel policy is driven by market forces, repeat MARKET FORCES.
Those wanting a CAREER airline, look elsewhere.
Those wanting a CAREER airline, look elsewhere.
Old Fella..........CX has changed and I venture to suggest the main reason EXPATS come to CX is for the MONEY. Although that is getting eroded more and more every day. Not to mention the contract abuse by the Management.
Now Childlabour...............if you can negaotiate the same total package for the LEP's then good on ya.
The fact of HK local life is that probably 80% of the population live in 500 sq feet or even less. FACT I'm affraid to say. A bit different from the lifestyle most EXPATS have in their home country.
To live a fairly normal EXPAT life up here you need to spend maybe 60,000 HKD month or 12,000 AUD. In The Australian Gold Coast you could rent a 4 bedroom house on a canal in Hope Island with a pool, jetty, nice Garden and a 2 car garage for about $4500 AUD month.
Proof is the fact of soooo many HK Chinese living in Canada, Australia in HUGE houses and driving Mercs around. They escaped their HK size existance.
Not to forget the HK Govt want to expand the population to 10 million to compete with China and Taiwan. that outta make things even tighter.
I venture to suggest an EXPAT 10 y.o. kid wouldn't do too well in a HK local school, he wouldn't understand the language for a start.
I went to a Public school in Oz and my kids most likely will too. Australian Public schools are quite good if you get a good one.
I have never said I think the LEP's shouldn't get allowances, but it's a bit hard to argue they should.
If it ever came to a vote in the AOA ( not something we need to vote on ) I would vote for the LEP's getting all the allowances. As I would vote for all Pilot's to be employed on the SAME COS.
As XFR8 said...........market forces.
Now Childlabour...............if you can negaotiate the same total package for the LEP's then good on ya.
The fact of HK local life is that probably 80% of the population live in 500 sq feet or even less. FACT I'm affraid to say. A bit different from the lifestyle most EXPATS have in their home country.
To live a fairly normal EXPAT life up here you need to spend maybe 60,000 HKD month or 12,000 AUD. In The Australian Gold Coast you could rent a 4 bedroom house on a canal in Hope Island with a pool, jetty, nice Garden and a 2 car garage for about $4500 AUD month.
Proof is the fact of soooo many HK Chinese living in Canada, Australia in HUGE houses and driving Mercs around. They escaped their HK size existance.
Not to forget the HK Govt want to expand the population to 10 million to compete with China and Taiwan. that outta make things even tighter.
I venture to suggest an EXPAT 10 y.o. kid wouldn't do too well in a HK local school, he wouldn't understand the language for a start.
I went to a Public school in Oz and my kids most likely will too. Australian Public schools are quite good if you get a good one.
I have never said I think the LEP's shouldn't get allowances, but it's a bit hard to argue they should.
If it ever came to a vote in the AOA ( not something we need to vote on ) I would vote for the LEP's getting all the allowances. As I would vote for all Pilot's to be employed on the SAME COS.
As XFR8 said...........market forces.
Last edited by ACMS; 10th Oct 2008 at 13:51.
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Normal EXPAT Life in HK
ACMS. I presume the HK $60000 is the going rate per month for an acceptable home, for an expat, these days. Your post implys you have to spend that amount. For clarity, what percentage of that amount does CX pay these days?
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LEP costs and savings
According to CX figures, it costs an extra $700K HKD in training for a cadet versus a DESO.
So lets assume the guy/gal is 25 when joining and works to 55. Lets assume 12years to command(hey, I am a glass is half full kinda guy;-)
An expat SO would have spent about $768K of CX money in the first 2 years of renting (2 * 12 * $32K). Lets assume he/she rents for the RFZ for the next 10 years waiting for command. That would mean 12 * 10 * $65K = $7.8M. About 18 years as a Captain getting about $70K more than an LEP Captain ( $103K less $8K pilot contribution less $24K paid to LEP) >> 18 * 12 * (103-8-24 = 71) = $15.4M
Lets say the expat SO has two kids - 6 years of Primary education assistance, 6 years of Secondary - I don't have the exact numbers at hand but roughly $45K for primary and $75K for secondary. So education assistance equals 6 * 2(kids) *$45K + 6 *2 * 75K = $1.44M
Total extra expat costs - $768K, $7.8M, $15.4M, $1.44M
So the LEP who cost CX about $700K more to train than the expat SO saves CX around $25.4Million HKD. So who do you think the winner is, the LEP for getting trained for free, or CX?
So lets assume the guy/gal is 25 when joining and works to 55. Lets assume 12years to command(hey, I am a glass is half full kinda guy;-)
An expat SO would have spent about $768K of CX money in the first 2 years of renting (2 * 12 * $32K). Lets assume he/she rents for the RFZ for the next 10 years waiting for command. That would mean 12 * 10 * $65K = $7.8M. About 18 years as a Captain getting about $70K more than an LEP Captain ( $103K less $8K pilot contribution less $24K paid to LEP) >> 18 * 12 * (103-8-24 = 71) = $15.4M
Lets say the expat SO has two kids - 6 years of Primary education assistance, 6 years of Secondary - I don't have the exact numbers at hand but roughly $45K for primary and $75K for secondary. So education assistance equals 6 * 2(kids) *$45K + 6 *2 * 75K = $1.44M
Total extra expat costs - $768K, $7.8M, $15.4M, $1.44M
So the LEP who cost CX about $700K more to train than the expat SO saves CX around $25.4Million HKD. So who do you think the winner is, the LEP for getting trained for free, or CX?
NC.............when you look at the numbers it's quite staggering!!
Like I've said if the GC wish to push harder for lep's to get more allowances then I'll support them.
Olds Fella..............I pay a LOT more than 60,000 HKD.
In the end CX pay round about 92% of it. These numbers are also staggering !!
Like I've said if the GC wish to push harder for lep's to get more allowances then I'll support them.
Olds Fella..............I pay a LOT more than 60,000 HKD.
In the end CX pay round about 92% of it. These numbers are also staggering !!
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There is an obvious issue with the disparities between Local pilots and their expat HK based colleagues. Especially when we look at the current figures of the expat housing allowance, its staggering compared to the basic salary of different ranks. To put things into perspective, a B scale local captain's package is about on par with an expat JFO, or SO on bypass pay (thats assuming that the JFO/SO has no kids in school!). On the issue of ex cadets having less experience, I think it is safe to say by the time they attain command, they can be considered experienced pilots when compared to their SO/JFO colleagues who joined as direct entry SOs, but the package does not reflect this.
Local pilots concept was conceived in the late 80's after CX started its cadet program, but things have changed alot in HK since then, but unfortunately the fundamentals of having pilots on local terms haven't. Not only has HK seen a social change, in what Wowpeter rightly suggested, that many other institutions have done away with expat terms altogether and brought their basic salaries up to cover the expat expenses so that locals were no longer discriminated. In CX itself the terms in which pilots join have drastically changed aswell (B scale & COS 08). This of course affected both expat and local new joiners, but what I am suggesting is that the concept of local pilots at that time was based on a market driven A scale salary, so that a local pilot may buy a property and pay it off with a higher than average salary. Today on B scale, the situation is very different, if not borderline dire! Not to mention that without a market driven payrise in so many years, whilst our expat colleagues are protected by an indexed housing scheme. Even compared to our peers at Dragonair, as local pilots our FO packages at CX are not even competitive. It is easy to see the difficulties for local pilots to lead a decent 'lifestyle' that is such a buzzword amongst CX pilots these days, but to be honest I would be more inclined to use the term 'livelihood' rather than 'lifestyle' in the topic we are discussing here.
As NC has crunched the numbers for us on what CX saves over a 30yr career here. Must a local pilot's inexperience when they joined and the fact that they hold a resident ID (new rules) be penalised through a 30yr career? SMOC poses a good question on this issue, why are all these KA/Oasis joiners on a freighter contract eligible for expat terms after their freighter commitment? Do they not hold a HKID card as residents when they joined? How are they different from the other local pilots?
Local pilots concept was conceived in the late 80's after CX started its cadet program, but things have changed alot in HK since then, but unfortunately the fundamentals of having pilots on local terms haven't. Not only has HK seen a social change, in what Wowpeter rightly suggested, that many other institutions have done away with expat terms altogether and brought their basic salaries up to cover the expat expenses so that locals were no longer discriminated. In CX itself the terms in which pilots join have drastically changed aswell (B scale & COS 08). This of course affected both expat and local new joiners, but what I am suggesting is that the concept of local pilots at that time was based on a market driven A scale salary, so that a local pilot may buy a property and pay it off with a higher than average salary. Today on B scale, the situation is very different, if not borderline dire! Not to mention that without a market driven payrise in so many years, whilst our expat colleagues are protected by an indexed housing scheme. Even compared to our peers at Dragonair, as local pilots our FO packages at CX are not even competitive. It is easy to see the difficulties for local pilots to lead a decent 'lifestyle' that is such a buzzword amongst CX pilots these days, but to be honest I would be more inclined to use the term 'livelihood' rather than 'lifestyle' in the topic we are discussing here.
As NC has crunched the numbers for us on what CX saves over a 30yr career here. Must a local pilot's inexperience when they joined and the fact that they hold a resident ID (new rules) be penalised through a 30yr career? SMOC poses a good question on this issue, why are all these KA/Oasis joiners on a freighter contract eligible for expat terms after their freighter commitment? Do they not hold a HKID card as residents when they joined? How are they different from the other local pilots?
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14MonthInterview,
Mate, it is pretty obvious (to everyone) that you local Chinese are being discriminated against. If I were you guys, I'll stage some kind of a "walk-off" to show my anger. Think about it, you're being discriminated against in your home country! Until Cathay is 100% run by HK Chinese, nothing will improve for you.
Until then....CANNOT-LA!!!!!!!
Mate, it is pretty obvious (to everyone) that you local Chinese are being discriminated against. If I were you guys, I'll stage some kind of a "walk-off" to show my anger. Think about it, you're being discriminated against in your home country! Until Cathay is 100% run by HK Chinese, nothing will improve for you.
Until then....CANNOT-LA!!!!!!!
Last edited by controlledCHAOS; 11th Oct 2008 at 20:26.
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WOWPETER SAYS.........
"Also, a lot of the LEP are in fact much more educated for their CX pilot job. Lots of them are engineers, phd grad, master grad, law school grad, etc... and a lot of them are grads from some of the best school around the world. I know I am and I am pretty certain most of my LEP colleagues are as well."
Please don't bring education into this argument. If you have a nice phd grad, master grad or law school grad as you put it, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING FLYING AEROPLANES???
You are now a "Blue Collar Worker" in Hong Kong. ( Yep.... Ask the Banks when you go and fill out any sort of application form!!!)
FORGET ABOUT YOUR SUPERIOR EDUCATION!!!
"Also, a lot of the LEP are in fact much more educated for their CX pilot job. Lots of them are engineers, phd grad, master grad, law school grad, etc... and a lot of them are grads from some of the best school around the world. I know I am and I am pretty certain most of my LEP colleagues are as well."
Please don't bring education into this argument. If you have a nice phd grad, master grad or law school grad as you put it, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING FLYING AEROPLANES???
You are now a "Blue Collar Worker" in Hong Kong. ( Yep.... Ask the Banks when you go and fill out any sort of application form!!!)
FORGET ABOUT YOUR SUPERIOR EDUCATION!!!
its£5perworddammit
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Trouble is that the fact of the matter is they are locals and that can't be changed.
Regards,
Just a Local
its£5perworddammit
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Sorry mrfox but you should delete that post it is extremely bad taste. How dare you compare yourself to the millions slaughtered by the Nazi's!!
This has degenerated into a local V expat thing which IT MOST CERTAINLY ISN'T.
Cut the crap..............we are all on the same side.
Cut the crap..............we are all on the same side.
Perhaps you can start by referring to us as fellow Cathay pilots rather than as “they” or “the locals”.
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errmm - Same side?
If we were all on the same side, surely the percentage of LEP members would be similar to the percentage of expat members. Clearly it is not - someone is just along for the free ride - until the going gets tough.
Many of you will remember that in the lead up to the 49'ers, the union said it would pay something akin to subsistance allowance to any member who was terminated. There was a rush of many previous non members to join.
The percentage of LEPS who joined then only to leave, when 5% subs to support our fallen colleagues was asked for, was far greater than the % of expat pilots, who by the way also quit in droves. Both of which showed lack of moral fibre.
Nett feeling is that many LEPs will only join if they see something in it for them, or when the next threat comes from the company, both of which look unlikely in the near future.
Overall, the word "freeloaders" springs to mind
Many of you will remember that in the lead up to the 49'ers, the union said it would pay something akin to subsistance allowance to any member who was terminated. There was a rush of many previous non members to join.
The percentage of LEPS who joined then only to leave, when 5% subs to support our fallen colleagues was asked for, was far greater than the % of expat pilots, who by the way also quit in droves. Both of which showed lack of moral fibre.
Nett feeling is that many LEPs will only join if they see something in it for them, or when the next threat comes from the company, both of which look unlikely in the near future.
Overall, the word "freeloaders" springs to mind
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WOWPETER SAYS.........
"Also, a lot of the LEP are in fact much more educated for their CX pilot job. Lots of them are engineers, phd grad, master grad, law school grad, etc... and a lot of them are grads from some of the best school around the world. I know I am and I am pretty certain most of my LEP colleagues are as well."
Please don't bring education into this argument. If you have a nice phd grad, master grad or law school grad as you put it, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING FLYING AEROPLANES???
You are now a "Blue Collar Worker" in Hong Kong. ( Yep.... Ask the Banks when you go and fill out any sort of application form!!!)
FORGET ABOUT YOUR SUPERIOR EDUCATION!!!
"Also, a lot of the LEP are in fact much more educated for their CX pilot job. Lots of them are engineers, phd grad, master grad, law school grad, etc... and a lot of them are grads from some of the best school around the world. I know I am and I am pretty certain most of my LEP colleagues are as well."
Please don't bring education into this argument. If you have a nice phd grad, master grad or law school grad as you put it, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING FLYING AEROPLANES???
You are now a "Blue Collar Worker" in Hong Kong. ( Yep.... Ask the Banks when you go and fill out any sort of application form!!!)
FORGET ABOUT YOUR SUPERIOR EDUCATION!!!
its£5perworddammit
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Nett feeling is that many LEPs will only join if they see something in it for them
Are you saying then, that there’s actually NOTHING in it for a LEP for joining the AOA, and the LEPs should just join for the sake of solidarity?
That is exactly what we are afraid of.
The percentage of LEPS who joined then only to leave, when 5% subs to support our fallen colleagues was asked for, was far greater than the % of expat pilots, who by the way also quit in droves. Both of which showed lack of moral fibre.
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Mr Fox - I can not argue with your two points.
However, whilst I said "...LEPs will only join if they see something in it for them", it takes a lateral thinking person to see the bigger picture and ascertain that the gain may not be immediate or substantial in nature, and sometimes the gain may only be for the group as a whole and not the individual.
That many do not join is indicitive of the mentality that one frequently sees everyday in the streets, trains and shops of HK. I'm sure you know the one I mean, its the "lateral blinkers/me only/me first" type of attitude.
Secondly, having been paying in excess of $6000 per month, I was only too aware that it was based on salary. However, I would like to think that were I to have been one of the 49'ers, that my colleagues would not have deserted me in my moment of need, when the AOA asked us to go on 95% salary to help those unfortunate few whose income stream suddenly went to ZER0 % !!
For me personally, I never had an end date to stop payment, as it felt lucky that I was still in a position to help when it could so easily have been me and it was a moral obligation, the right thing to do, you know - old fashioned principles - the sort us old farts go on about from time to time.
What did dissapoint me was the large% exodus of LEP's, (and expats to a lesser degree) when they were asked to honour the other side of the bargain.
So I'll stick with my opinion of "Freeloaders", which also applies to the expat quitters too (just in case the LEPs think this a race thing - which it is not and never was)
However, whilst I said "...LEPs will only join if they see something in it for them", it takes a lateral thinking person to see the bigger picture and ascertain that the gain may not be immediate or substantial in nature, and sometimes the gain may only be for the group as a whole and not the individual.
That many do not join is indicitive of the mentality that one frequently sees everyday in the streets, trains and shops of HK. I'm sure you know the one I mean, its the "lateral blinkers/me only/me first" type of attitude.
Secondly, having been paying in excess of $6000 per month, I was only too aware that it was based on salary. However, I would like to think that were I to have been one of the 49'ers, that my colleagues would not have deserted me in my moment of need, when the AOA asked us to go on 95% salary to help those unfortunate few whose income stream suddenly went to ZER0 % !!
For me personally, I never had an end date to stop payment, as it felt lucky that I was still in a position to help when it could so easily have been me and it was a moral obligation, the right thing to do, you know - old fashioned principles - the sort us old farts go on about from time to time.
What did dissapoint me was the large% exodus of LEP's, (and expats to a lesser degree) when they were asked to honour the other side of the bargain.
So I'll stick with my opinion of "Freeloaders", which also applies to the expat quitters too (just in case the LEPs think this a race thing - which it is not and never was)
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Wowpeter...... Point taken.....But you do miss my point
I am merely saying that yes, as money is really the only important thing for locals,( in most cases, and yourself as you admit) to decide which career to take, why bother even flying if you know that you can get a better package doing the job you were originally trained for..... And spent yr parents hard earned money on the Degrees. It is the genuine love of flying that gets most people this job. If recruiting had any idea they would be screening those who may be a waste of training money in the long run, as they would eventually leave to work in another industry.
Times may be changing , but for me, this carrer is not one that you can just chop and change because it pays ****tte.
" stuck in a pilot career at CX"......... Like i said....... Pilot Career is what it is......
PS.... Due to my inadequate education, can someone tell me how to quote threads in the blue quote boxes ?? I'm too stoooopid.
I am merely saying that yes, as money is really the only important thing for locals,( in most cases, and yourself as you admit) to decide which career to take, why bother even flying if you know that you can get a better package doing the job you were originally trained for..... And spent yr parents hard earned money on the Degrees. It is the genuine love of flying that gets most people this job. If recruiting had any idea they would be screening those who may be a waste of training money in the long run, as they would eventually leave to work in another industry.
Times may be changing , but for me, this carrer is not one that you can just chop and change because it pays ****tte.
" stuck in a pilot career at CX"......... Like i said....... Pilot Career is what it is......
PS.... Due to my inadequate education, can someone tell me how to quote threads in the blue quote boxes ?? I'm too stoooopid.