CX LEPs.... it's time to join
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Therefore we should ALL get paid the same.
It is simple isn't!
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iLuvPX
Same question to you then...
If CX moved to a same pay for all... ie no ex-pat allowances, would it recruit and retain enough pilots, Cabin Crew* and Engineers*? Yes or No....?
* Extended the question for them as well..... same team: same dream and all that cr@p....
If CX moved to a same pay for all... ie no ex-pat allowances, would it recruit and retain enough pilots, Cabin Crew* and Engineers*? Yes or No....?
* Extended the question for them as well..... same team: same dream and all that cr@p....
Join Date: May 2005
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Remember these are guys who had SIGNIFICANT experience in many facets of GA or the military, and who will probably have had to use their aquired skills to stay alive in many a hairy situation. They are hired by CX as future commanders for that skill, experience and will to live, to protect Cathays safe reputation. They were hired not only for what they do on a day to day basis, but for what they CAN do when the **** hits the fan.
Major Banks, Law Firms, Insurance Companies, ESF, Universities all entice people to HK with a package (better than mine normally).
As for the instructor program... I am saying why the inconsistency on offering expat package to this specific group of pilot? This particular group of pilot can be both locals or foreigners (majority foreigners though, with only a few with HKID)... but they are not the traditional expat because when they join this program, they are just like any cadet applicants with no previous flying experience. Even those who happens to have some flying experience will not be enough to apply for the DESO position at CX. So CX is willing to sponsor these applicants and offer them expat package and yet they are telling cadet who joins on the same qualification that they can only have local terms? As many of the expat who posted on this topic, the reason why expat are supposedly worth more is because they are bring their experience to HK where otherwise it will not be available here. But if they are not really bring those experience to HK, why pay them the premium? I am simply using your own argument here... I know life is not fair, but it doesn't hurt to try to get more if you can... also this simple actions by the company gave LEP a reason why we should ask for more from the company. As we can see from the company's action, they are willing to pay more but they will not do so unless they have do... which tells me there is room for negotiations for LEP...
Finally, for all those expat who reply to this post...
For those of you who thinks I am playing the race card... the same can be said about your strong objections on why LEP does not deserve to fight for a better package from the company... is it because of race or is it because you are just being defensive about your own status quo and you do not want anyone catching up to your package? What does this say about you? Does it hurt you that LEP want to fight for the same package? As I have said many many times again, I have no problem with expat getting what they are getting... in none of my argument has I ask for the expat allowance to be dropped... (I am simply saying we should have a single HK package for all pilots)... you guys spend most of your career trying to get into CX and good for you that you made it here and you deserve what you get pay... as for me being a LEP, I will continue to fight for a better package but at least I know I will never undermine my fellow colleagues (expat or local) for their fight to get a better package... and in fact, I will support the expat fight for a better package (example will be your housing allowance when it comes up for renegotiation) even if it does not have an immediate impact on my own package...
For those who continually believe that expat pilots are superior to local pilots... all I have to say is that, this is your personal opinions and I can never change that... there is certain standard at CX, I am sure if you does not meet those standard, it doesn't matter are you local or expat, you will be chop... so I am sure those who meet the standard are qualified pilots... as for who is better? Neither... I have flown with some awesome local pilots and I have flown with some awesome expat pilots... being good or not have nothing to do with your background or how many years you have been flying... so I guess everyone should just tone down on their superiority complex... We are pilot and we always thinks we are better than others... it must be our type A personality... but everyone is only doing the same job really...
Anyway, thanks for this discussion... laters
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Okay I am not taking any sides here but just trying to justify the reasons on both sides. This will also be me first and last post here as I am not here for an argument (plus the fact I got no right to argue with you guys). Firstly as Wowpeter says most LEP are technically not locals being they reside out side HK for most their lives. I have an example for this.
A friend of mine held a CPL and ATPL, and also a civil engineers degree paying a lot more (the civil eng degree is not important in here, I just thought I’d mention it as he was getting paid over 100K AUD already which is how he paid for the CPL and ATPL) and went through the cadet course a few years ago and hired as a LEP. He has lived in Australia since grade one and used to the life style of big house, swimming pool, tennis courts, a few cars in the house hold etc. etc. but wait he holds a HKID. He loved aviation so hence changed jobs. So is he an Expat?????
Yes? – He is moving from hes country, Australia from the life style he is used to (big house, swimming pool, big backyard etc.)
No? – He doesn’t have the experience that Expats are paid for.
Im not even going to comment on that one it’s so…. on the grey line, but hes considered not because the mere fact he holds a HKID, even though hes in the same condition as all the other Expats (moving away from family and friends etc.)
Now the instructor course, what?? They are Expats?? How they also hold HKID oh wait they have the experience. So lets do some calculations, when they do become instructor for 5 yrs and lets say they do 2 flights a day 1.5 each. So that’s 1.5*2*7*52 = 1092*5 = 5460HRs with say ¾ of that in command = 4095hrs. Whereas if you come in as a cadet you will have had just what was done in training. I know some people that do the cadet course already hold an instructors rating so what difference does it make them to these instructors? So are they expats??
Yes? – They have over 5000hrs in total and over 4000 in command. This is also a underestimate although I did a calculation on 7 days they may have a day or two off, but from what I heard a lot of instructors fly 4-5 times a day, which will bring the hrs a lot higher than 5000hrs. But cadets only have what is provide in training.
No? – They hold a HKID.
Once again no comment.
I think all Wowpeter is trying to say is that yes it is fair that expats get paid more initially for you to settle down in HK and also for their experience, but once the cadet has had command for a certain time then they will also have the experience the expat/ instructor has had, so should then be put up to the same scale and allowances.
But after saying that I have to say yes initially experience does count (eg, cadet SO and a DESO with 4000hrs in their second flight, gets in a steamy situation, who would do a better job in that situation ?? I think we can all answer that, so hence they get paid more for the experience) and the one who started with more experience will always have more than the other, but the question is how much does this extra experience count?? When its 600hrs V.S say 6000hrs (cadet v.s DESO/DEFO) Yes that would matter, but when its Thousands of hours each with a difference of say 3000hrs ie. 20 000hrs V.S 23 000hrs, with the same two guys the original cadet and the DESO/DEFO, does it matter then on experience??? Shouldn’t they be put on the same (they both have 1000's of hrs of experience now??) I think this is the type of thing Wowpeter means.
FYI im just a wannabe also who just applied for the cadet program living overseas for my entire life holding a HKID and will be hired as an LEP if successful. Personally to me $$ is not the big factor to applying for this, it is what someone mentioned earlier (to want to fly and love for aviation) as I can tell you in my job which I just resigned from within the next few yrs I can achieve the pay scale of a captain. So I will accept that I will be hired as a LEP and I think it’s worth it to take a pay cut and to do something I want to do, not for the money but for the flying, and I understand all the sacrafices that must be made to acheive this 'theres no free lunch'. I have heard so many people telling me to not join and not even apply etc. etc. but none of that has affected me, so go ahead who ever wants to have a blast at me on what I said above do so, I just think that this is all very grey and what is the point of arguing on it when its not going to make a difference here regardless who wins the argument. Nothing in this world is fair, if you want to do something then accept what it gives you for doing the job and if you’re not happy with this then move on.
Just think thou, if I didn’t hold a HKID I would have had to get the license and then apply for the entry after gaining some experience on maybe some regional flights etc. people who don’t hold a HKID don’t even have the chance to be able to fly with a carrier with no previous experience (isn’t this already a bonus?? able to join at young age for some and not having to spend years building up the experience before being able to join). This is however unfair to the ones which are many who already hold a CPL or instructors license who went through the cadet scheme. But remember one thing, at the end of the day it was their choice and they knew what they where getting into before they signed that document.
Peace out everyone J and wish me luck J
A friend of mine held a CPL and ATPL, and also a civil engineers degree paying a lot more (the civil eng degree is not important in here, I just thought I’d mention it as he was getting paid over 100K AUD already which is how he paid for the CPL and ATPL) and went through the cadet course a few years ago and hired as a LEP. He has lived in Australia since grade one and used to the life style of big house, swimming pool, tennis courts, a few cars in the house hold etc. etc. but wait he holds a HKID. He loved aviation so hence changed jobs. So is he an Expat?????
Yes? – He is moving from hes country, Australia from the life style he is used to (big house, swimming pool, big backyard etc.)
No? – He doesn’t have the experience that Expats are paid for.
Im not even going to comment on that one it’s so…. on the grey line, but hes considered not because the mere fact he holds a HKID, even though hes in the same condition as all the other Expats (moving away from family and friends etc.)
Now the instructor course, what?? They are Expats?? How they also hold HKID oh wait they have the experience. So lets do some calculations, when they do become instructor for 5 yrs and lets say they do 2 flights a day 1.5 each. So that’s 1.5*2*7*52 = 1092*5 = 5460HRs with say ¾ of that in command = 4095hrs. Whereas if you come in as a cadet you will have had just what was done in training. I know some people that do the cadet course already hold an instructors rating so what difference does it make them to these instructors? So are they expats??
Yes? – They have over 5000hrs in total and over 4000 in command. This is also a underestimate although I did a calculation on 7 days they may have a day or two off, but from what I heard a lot of instructors fly 4-5 times a day, which will bring the hrs a lot higher than 5000hrs. But cadets only have what is provide in training.
No? – They hold a HKID.
Once again no comment.
I think all Wowpeter is trying to say is that yes it is fair that expats get paid more initially for you to settle down in HK and also for their experience, but once the cadet has had command for a certain time then they will also have the experience the expat/ instructor has had, so should then be put up to the same scale and allowances.
But after saying that I have to say yes initially experience does count (eg, cadet SO and a DESO with 4000hrs in their second flight, gets in a steamy situation, who would do a better job in that situation ?? I think we can all answer that, so hence they get paid more for the experience) and the one who started with more experience will always have more than the other, but the question is how much does this extra experience count?? When its 600hrs V.S say 6000hrs (cadet v.s DESO/DEFO) Yes that would matter, but when its Thousands of hours each with a difference of say 3000hrs ie. 20 000hrs V.S 23 000hrs, with the same two guys the original cadet and the DESO/DEFO, does it matter then on experience??? Shouldn’t they be put on the same (they both have 1000's of hrs of experience now??) I think this is the type of thing Wowpeter means.
FYI im just a wannabe also who just applied for the cadet program living overseas for my entire life holding a HKID and will be hired as an LEP if successful. Personally to me $$ is not the big factor to applying for this, it is what someone mentioned earlier (to want to fly and love for aviation) as I can tell you in my job which I just resigned from within the next few yrs I can achieve the pay scale of a captain. So I will accept that I will be hired as a LEP and I think it’s worth it to take a pay cut and to do something I want to do, not for the money but for the flying, and I understand all the sacrafices that must be made to acheive this 'theres no free lunch'. I have heard so many people telling me to not join and not even apply etc. etc. but none of that has affected me, so go ahead who ever wants to have a blast at me on what I said above do so, I just think that this is all very grey and what is the point of arguing on it when its not going to make a difference here regardless who wins the argument. Nothing in this world is fair, if you want to do something then accept what it gives you for doing the job and if you’re not happy with this then move on.
Just think thou, if I didn’t hold a HKID I would have had to get the license and then apply for the entry after gaining some experience on maybe some regional flights etc. people who don’t hold a HKID don’t even have the chance to be able to fly with a carrier with no previous experience (isn’t this already a bonus?? able to join at young age for some and not having to spend years building up the experience before being able to join). This is however unfair to the ones which are many who already hold a CPL or instructors license who went through the cadet scheme. But remember one thing, at the end of the day it was their choice and they knew what they where getting into before they signed that document.
Peace out everyone J and wish me luck J
Last edited by Noskcid; 14th Oct 2008 at 05:49.
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HOLY CRAP!
I start a thread about some good news...... LEPs on BPP to receive their entitled 24K allowance back dated to July.... and it turns into a school yard Expat vs. LEP (I'm better then you) girlie fight!
It was supposed to be about UNITY and LEPs having a good reason to join the AOA so we can work TOGETHER in our fight against managements interpretation of our CoS.
Enough is enough...... Together we stand divided we fall! (regardless of race, colour, experience etc etc)
I start a thread about some good news...... LEPs on BPP to receive their entitled 24K allowance back dated to July.... and it turns into a school yard Expat vs. LEP (I'm better then you) girlie fight!
It was supposed to be about UNITY and LEPs having a good reason to join the AOA so we can work TOGETHER in our fight against managements interpretation of our CoS.
Enough is enough...... Together we stand divided we fall! (regardless of race, colour, experience etc etc)
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It is really hard to have unity when when you have one group looking down on another. The LEPs are NOT asking the company to get rid of expat allowance, they just want the same allowance. Why are the expats so against this? It doesn't take away anything they have. Are they so afraid to be seen as equals to local? Is this demeaning to them? The argument of "don't like it leave" can be apply to all those moaning about CX.
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Dixi Normus
I think you will find that it's a very small percentage of expat pilots that think LEPs do not deserve the same benefits (perhaps after a few years of service).
As (I hope) there is a very small percentage of LEPs that believe expats are overpaid inferior Gwilo.
Just remember this is PPRuNe.... some people say stupid things here because they are hiding behind a vale a anonymity.
I think you will find that it's a very small percentage of expat pilots that think LEPs do not deserve the same benefits (perhaps after a few years of service).
As (I hope) there is a very small percentage of LEPs that believe expats are overpaid inferior Gwilo.
Just remember this is PPRuNe.... some people say stupid things here because they are hiding behind a vale a anonymity.
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Remember these are guys who had SIGNIFICANT experience in many facets of GA or the military, and who will probably have had to use their aquired skills to stay alive in many a hairy situation.
does that mean you can make a better bunk than a local?
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Frankly, I don't think the LEPs Captains should even get the 24K. Explain that 1 to me...If they're not getting any allowances for the time in the right seat..why is it that they suddenly entitled to 24K housing allowance now that they are a Captain? If the company wants to give them some money as a added bonus for making it to the left seat..They should call it something else. Giving it as Housing Allowance makes no sense. If I was a Captain based in Australia. What allowances do I get?
They are from Hong Kong..No Housing Allowance. That should be the AOA's stance. We need to concentrate on other important business. Not this.
They are from Hong Kong..No Housing Allowance. That should be the AOA's stance. We need to concentrate on other important business. Not this.
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The LEPs are NOT asking the company to get rid of expat allowance, they just want the same allowance. Why are the expats so against this? It doesn't take away anything they have. Are they so afraid to be seen as equals to local?
When the day comes and there are no expats left at CX, will you then give up your quest for expat allowances?? Is this merely a jealous outburst of "he gets paid more than me
boohoo..." /??????
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I think this a good discussion
and a shame a few feel the need to post and run.
CC.... Wowpeter and Mrfox may know more; but I understand that a CN is classified as a Class D employee and therefore gets basic housing... I understood this to be a CX/Swire thing.... I stand-by to be corrected on this one..
Wowpeter; thought provoking post of 5:16. Looking at it from CX's point of view, if they had some sympathy with your view.. same job:same package. Would they not have to extend that to locally employed Cabin Crew and Engineers and also Managerial Staff? Where would you draw the line...
Further, do you pay single employees who live in their girlfriends/ boyfriends flat the top-whack rental allowance and the cash equivalent of 3 kids in schooling so they have parity with a married guy with 3 kids?
Are you saying that the Instructor program are differentiating between those who get the ex-pat package and those that don't solely by race... ie Chinese face= LEP terms... non-Chinese face... ex-pat?
Noskcid... Hang in there and the best of luck...
CC.... Wowpeter and Mrfox may know more; but I understand that a CN is classified as a Class D employee and therefore gets basic housing... I understood this to be a CX/Swire thing.... I stand-by to be corrected on this one..
Wowpeter; thought provoking post of 5:16. Looking at it from CX's point of view, if they had some sympathy with your view.. same job:same package. Would they not have to extend that to locally employed Cabin Crew and Engineers and also Managerial Staff? Where would you draw the line...
Further, do you pay single employees who live in their girlfriends/ boyfriends flat the top-whack rental allowance and the cash equivalent of 3 kids in schooling so they have parity with a married guy with 3 kids?
Are you saying that the Instructor program are differentiating between those who get the ex-pat package and those that don't solely by race... ie Chinese face= LEP terms... non-Chinese face... ex-pat?
Noskcid... Hang in there and the best of luck...
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I'm surprised that a positive development such as 24K extra for bypass pay LEP can bring such negative feedback. Regardless whether you are expat or local, any improvements in either conditions can only be a step in the right direction for the pilot community as a whole.
LEP may be the minority but do you think that if one part of this community gets screw it won't come back and bite you in the ass later?
LEP may be the minority but do you think that if one part of this community gets screw it won't come back and bite you in the ass later?
interesting reading.
Funny how I was berated for what I said !! turns out what i said was extremely tame compared to other posts in here.
Is there no justice in this cruel world.
I maintain my initial stance.
I don't feel superior to a LEP but as it stands now I am a EXPAT and to get me here CX paid an allowance. I'm not better than a LEP, just that at the time of my employment I had experiece the company WANTED, to get me here they had to pay.
It's NOT ROCKET SCIENCE PEOPLE.
As was pointed out "MARKET FORCES"
Simple hey.
Doesn't mean that the AOA cannot try for allowances for the LEP's though.
So could you all stop the racist BULLS
cr
We are all CX Pilot's and together we can make it better for ALL of us.
Funny how I was berated for what I said !! turns out what i said was extremely tame compared to other posts in here.
Is there no justice in this cruel world.
I maintain my initial stance.
I don't feel superior to a LEP but as it stands now I am a EXPAT and to get me here CX paid an allowance. I'm not better than a LEP, just that at the time of my employment I had experiece the company WANTED, to get me here they had to pay.
It's NOT ROCKET SCIENCE PEOPLE.
As was pointed out "MARKET FORCES"
Simple hey.
Doesn't mean that the AOA cannot try for allowances for the LEP's though.
So could you all stop the racist BULLS
crWe are all CX Pilot's and together we can make it better for ALL of us.
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TGIG, made I larf that did
ref the bunks - you betcha!! I can do hospital corners, apple pie, dead end (they were a favourite for the long sleeve silk jimmie-jam brigade), and for some of the nice old time skippers, an extra blanket.
Cut my teeth on bunk making on the classic, when they mainly did ULH to NAmerica and Europe in the 80's. Was the most enjoyable bit of the flight, especially as that often consisted of 5 hours in 1 seat, a whole hour off to yourself, then 5 hours in the other seat, and the last 30 mins was your own.
And to think some young lads today have a bit of a sulk or a whine when you split the aussie flights 4/4
.
Ah the youth of today, dunno they're born, but I digress.....
And so back to the thread, as for the expat allowances issue -
simply put so they can finally understand: "you are not, so you can't have"
Chances of Mr Swire changing that - Buckley's.
Sorry about that ol' boy, brgds.
ref the bunks - you betcha!! I can do hospital corners, apple pie, dead end (they were a favourite for the long sleeve silk jimmie-jam brigade), and for some of the nice old time skippers, an extra blanket.
Cut my teeth on bunk making on the classic, when they mainly did ULH to NAmerica and Europe in the 80's. Was the most enjoyable bit of the flight, especially as that often consisted of 5 hours in 1 seat, a whole hour off to yourself, then 5 hours in the other seat, and the last 30 mins was your own.
And to think some young lads today have a bit of a sulk or a whine when you split the aussie flights 4/4
.Ah the youth of today, dunno they're born, but I digress.....
And so back to the thread, as for the expat allowances issue -
simply put so they can finally understand: "you are not, so you can't have"
Chances of Mr Swire changing that - Buckley's.
Sorry about that ol' boy, brgds.
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Hey wouldn't A scale and all the various benefits be great, I joined on B scale and the reduced benefits. However, I signed up and joined on B scale so I cannot complain. Wow and Fox it ain't gonna happen you accepted the LEP package end of. Not racial not looking down on LEP's just the facts. If you banker friends etc are all better paid and that is what you want go for your career change. What you have to remember is that Swire / Cathay are HK companies and they are run the way many HK companies are operated. All they are interested in is PROFITS.
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It would be interesting if an ex-cx cadet left CX, joined Oasis and then rejoined Cx and was told he was back on local terms.... has that happened?
So apparently experience has nothing to do with being classed as a local.
The Level D payment is NOT housing it is called Special Allowance appears on pay slip as just that, and is taxed at the normal rate with Income.
