CX LEPs.... it's time to join

[CXChildLabour]

Couple days out of town and this turns out to be a racist issue, funny how things work in HKG.

As far as my understanding goes, unity is what the AOA is trying to achieve. Yet, it's so bloody apparent to see why the company's divide and conquer strategy works so well for many years. Aholes only looking out for his own as, worrying about others cutting into his pie and thus hanging them out to dry.

Mark my words! UNITY WILL NEVER BE ACHIEVED IN THIS COMPANY, FORGET IT AOA, NOT WITH THE CUS WE HAVE HERE! Long live the DPA for their support for EVERYONE in their pilot group! As an AOA member, I officially have given up on helping it recruit. In fact, it would be lucky if I ain't gonna try to persuade people not to follow my footsteps in joining.

Last note for you all who has absolutely no clue about the LEP committee. IT IS NOT A UNION, so stop the bullst about them being one. There's no union dues or anything, just a group of volunteers who tries to get a fair deal because the OFFICIAL NEGOTIATING PARTY ISN'T STANDING UP FOR THEM. Easy way to get rid of this committee, FKING REPRESENT THEM PROPERLY!!!! But it's probably too difficult of a concept to understand with so many apartments, cars, boats, ex-wives to take care of at the same time, no worries, we ain't surprised.

I'm done with this post, you can blast me all you want while writing checks to your ex-wives donation fund.

[Dragon69]

Couple days out of town and this turns out to be a racist issue, funny how things work in HKG.

What part of these posts were racist . Or are you employing the same strategy African Americans employ, disagree with their point of view and be quickly branded a racist.

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

As we can see from the company's action, they are willing to pay more but they will not do so unless they have do... which tells me there is room for negotiations for LEP...


Finally, for all those expat who reply to this post...
For those of you who thinks I am playing the race card... the same can be said about your strong objections on why LEP does not deserve to fight for a better package from the company... is it because of race or is it because you are just being defensive about your own status quo and you do not want anyone catching up to your package? What does this say about you? Does it hurt you that LEP want to fight for the same package? As I have said many many times again, I have no problem with expat getting what they are getting... in none of my argument has I ask for the expat allowance to be dropped... (I am simply saying we should have a single HK package for all pilots)... you guys spend most of your career trying to get into CX and good for you that you made it here and you deserve what you get pay... as for me being a LEP, I will continue to fight for a better package but at least I know I will never undermine my fellow colleagues (expat or local) for their fight to get a better package... and in fact, I will support the expat fight for a better package (example will be your housing allowance when it comes up for renegotiation) even if it does not have an immediate impact on my own package...

ah, i found the quote box...... Yr right St Peter............ Join the AOA and you might have at least a slim chance of getting your concerns heard. Certainly more than not doing anything about it, or relying on yr LEP group meetings.... PC ain't there anymore ...... Right????

Noskcid..... Dickson ........ If yr friend went and got an ATPL , it's his fault he didn't join as a DESO and get expat allowances. he knew what he was signing. Like I would have signed a contract to get all my flying paid for when i was learning.

Agree totally though with the cadets getting something if the 5yr course gets Expat allowances..... I don't even think we'll see many last the 5 yrs without going crazy. If yr heart isn't in Instructing, how can you do it for 5 yrs........................

_ eveels fo draziw

[mrfox]

as for the expat allowances issue -
simply put so they can finally understand: "you are not, so you can't have"

Wow and Fox it ain't gonna happen you accepted the LEP package end of. Not racial not looking down on LEP's just the facts.

Kids, you tried your best, and you failed miserably.
The lesson is - never try.

Spare me Mrfox's cute (but shallow) answer... Again, you guys are all respected, highly qualified aviators: what would it take for you to go Emirates... Housing Yes or No... Education Yes or No, Bonus at the completion of Contract (3 years) Yes or No.... or are you saying... if a local UAE doesn't get the allowance; I don't want it either.....

Go on, surprise me and give a substantive answer...

The depth of the answer given was appropriate to the depth of the question asked.

So let me get this straight...you are not willing to make any sacrifices to better your career, you simply want to stay in your own comfort surroundings close to family and friends and receive the same package that is entitled to those who made the sacrifice to live abroad to better their career.

And what exactly, were the "sacrifices" you made? Did it have anything to do with, say, quality of life, monetary and emotional cost of uprooting family and self, and restarting at the bottom of the ladder due to loss of seniority and rank? Sounds familiar?

And was it because of the fact that the Cathay package can offset the above negatives that you decided to jump ship?

Please do tell if you came for more noble reasons, so we can all appreciate your "sacrifice".

You think Hong Kong is an easy place to live for most expats...what Dubai is to you, Hong Kong is to me.

Lemme tell ya, we have it great here. You have no idea!

Because as "Locals", we enjoy many advantages which makes Hong Kong just heaven on earth for us!

Just a few that I can think of off the top of my head:
-A unique biological preference for small living spaces. The smaller the better.
-Kids with 4 digit IQs, making education irrelevant.
-An in-built pollution filter, located between the esophagus and the lungs. Ask us to show you next time!
-And the fantastic ability to grow money on trees!

Come on, tell us what YOU love about Hong Kong!

Remember these are guys who had SIGNIFICANT experience in many facets of GA or the military, and who will probably have had to use their aquired skills to stay alive in many a hairy situation. They are hired by CX as future commanders for that skill, experience and will to live, to protect Cathays safe reputation. They were hired not only for what they do on a day to day basis, but for what they CAN do when the **** hits the fan.

By comparison, many of the cadets had nothing to offer by way of a proven track record

If you believe one's fair worth is measured from the hours in his logbook, then perhaps we should all be on a sliding payscale based on logged hours?

But of course, GA hours wouldn't be worth as much as airline hours, so we'll need to have a multiplier.

And of course hours from the military are worth most of all.

Then we need to seperate the trash haulers from the "tactical" aviators, which are the best of the best of the best, unless you were a test pilot.

1 billion bonus points for shuttle/X-15 time.

Seriously,

Is a ex-cadet's PC easier than a DE's?

Do we sell our seats cheaper because a flight is being operated by an ex-cadet?

Does the **** stink less when it hits the fan on an ex-cadet's flight?

Whether you like it or not, our "limited" experience is sufficient to get us out and back safely, effectively, and efficiently, day after day.

Regardless of background, we operate to the same standards.

That makes us equals.

Again the question to you are Mrfox, if the package was not paid, would CX recruit and retain enough pilots? It's a simple question... any chance of answer

I stay because of the package, take away the expat benefits and I'll be out of here faster than Adolf Chen can hand out Lai Sees.

As many have already mentioned, no one is arguing for the elimination of allowances.

I can't even imagine how anyone can come to such a conclusion. How does this serve the LEPs, or ANYONE'S interest?

How did you get the impression that the LEPs are doing this out of spite?

Furthermore, following some of the above arguments, what about our based colleagues then, shouldn't they be entitled to what you already receive living in your home country (ie. 13 months and a special allowance for those who are captain). In fact you pay a much less tax rate in Hong Kong, compared to anywhere else, so why not adjust the based salaries to reflect the higher income tax. After all they are doing the same job as you, it's only fair, but I don't see you complaining about that!

Please read my replies more carefully. Although the topic of this thread was about LEPs, I have always included our based colleagues in my arguments.

What I seek is JUST pay. And justice for one is justice for none.

Local, expat, freighter, A scale, B scale, C scale, O scale, base scales X 6!!! Not to mention the currency, bonus, allowance, and tax issues you have mentioned above which divides us further and further, splintering us into bickering, self-interested groups.

What we have, and I am sure its the one thing that almost everyone can agree to, is that this is a royal hell of a mess, brought about by years of narrow, short sighted thinking, taken at the expense of our long term interest of a UNIFIED pilot body and its collective bargaining power.

Originally Posted by ACMS

We are all CX Pilot's and together we can make it better for ALL of us.

[Dragon69]

And what exactly, were the "sacrifices" you made? Did it have anything to do with, say, quality of life, monetary and emotional cost of uprooting family and self, and restarting at the bottom of the ladder due to loss of seniority and rank? Sounds familiar?

And was it because of the fact that the Cathay package can offset the above negatives that you decided to jump ship?

Please do tell if you came for more noble reasons, so we can all appreciate your "sacrifice".

Noble reasons?? WTF??? Who said anything about making a decision based on noble reasons. It's all about money money money!!!! Having said that, you have no clue, absolutely none!

Because as "Locals", we enjoy many advantages which makes Hong Kong just heaven on earth for us!

Just a few that I can think of off the top of my head:
-A unique biological preference for small living spaces. The smaller the better.
-Kids with 4 digit IQs, making education irrelevant.
-An in-built pollution filter, located between the esophagus and the lungs. Ask us to show you next time!
-And the fantastic ability to grow money on trees!

Come on, tell us what YOU love about Hong Kong!

Exactly why CX has to pay expat allowances to keep pilots here

If I were in your shoes I would use the experience you've gained and use it to your advantage, no one said CX is the only airline job on this planet. But if you knew anything about sacrifices you would now what I am talking about.

Please read my replies more carefully. Although the topic of this thread was about LEPs, I have always included our based colleagues in my arguments.

What I seek is JUST pay. And justice for one is justice for none.

Ok cut the BS! Now who is trying to sound 'o so noble! This is all about you face it!

Again, if there were no expats in HKG, what would have been your argument for wanting to receive an expat package as a "local". Just because we are being paid an expat package as expats it has your undies in a knot!

[mrfox]

if there were no expats in HKG, what would have been your argument for wanting to receive an expat package as a "local". Just because we are being paid an expat package as expats it has your undies in a knot!

You got me.
I'm angry because I'm losing my hair, and you have a full head of hair.
My secret plan is to taint the entire city's stock of shampoo and conditioner with Nair® hair removal cream.
If I can't have hair, no one will.

[Dixi Normus]

I think the term "expat allowance" is causing the problem here. The LEPs are not seeking the get the "expat allowance" per say, just equal renumeration. As long as the basic pay + "something" is equal among all pilot. You can call that something anything you want i.e. special allowance, the LEP captains are getting this already (although it is nothing close to the expat allowance). The reason it is call "special allowance" is because the LEP captains are being "specially" screwed. The renumeration package of the FO on his crew is more than what he is getting and he is being fed for their mistakes!

Equal renumeration for equal jobs, are the AOA against this?

[iceman50]

Dixi

What planet are you on? It is an expat allowance and if you are not an expat you will not get it!! Mr Swire will make sure of that and if he could get away with not paying the expats it, he would!! The "salaries" paid are exactly the same be it A/ B/ C or D scale, it just depends upon when you joined.

[Hiro Nakimura]

Those that say the AOA had nothing to do with LEPs getting the $24K special allowance when receiving BPP are 100% right. Its just an amazing coincidence that the LPF have been arguing over this for years and didn't achieve anything but JF met with the Labour Department two months ago, with CX in attendance, and it was agreed to pay the allowance - just a coincidence!

[mrfox]

Those that say the AOA had nothing to do with LEPs getting the $24K special allowance when receiving BPP are 100% right. Its just an amazing coincidence that the LPF have been arguing over this for years and didn't achieve anything but JF met with the Labour Department two months ago, with CX in attendance, and it was agreed to pay the allowance - just a coincidence!

Any details of this meeting? Seriously - I am only asking for more information so as to get a fair picture from the AOA's point of view. Who initiated the campaign within the AOA? What was the process? When did these things happen?

Confirm all Sarcastic remarks are checked closed and off.

What planet are you on? It is an expat allowance and if you are not an expat you will not get it!! Mr Swire will make sure of that and if he could get away with not paying the expats it, he would!! The "salaries" paid are exactly the same be it A/ B/ C or D scale, it just depends upon when you joined.

My motivations for supporting equal conditions for ALL CX employed pilots are two fold:
A - I am currently on one of the inferior COS, so I would like to better my livelihood by realigning my COS with the majority. This is a near term benefit.
B - When the majority (or ALL) CX pilots are employed on the same COS, then we will create true solidarity within the pilot group due to common interest. This creates a stronger union and strengthens our collective bargaining power. This is a long term benefit.

To naysayers for a common contract:
What is your motivation for being so adamantly against LEPs/based pilots/freighter pilots in getting conditions of service that are equal to yours?

There's no need to answer if your last name is Swire. (Sarcasm is back on)

[fostersnuts]

Market forces, focusing on own careers instead

I'm a local AOA member!
Come on guys! The AOA is good for the insurance, and IS not good for much else, as far as our local issues are concerned. Their administration at the top level don't believe in any of our specifically local conditions. Even the a certain PAST "Top Dog" can be quoted in saying to one of us, that we signed the contract when we joined, so we should live with it! He really justified the AOA's existence as some form of union by saying that, didn't he!
The simple reason being that CX LEPs are not creating any market forces by the way of guys or gals leaving, to convince the company to improve the local package. No matter whom is the "Goat head" at the helm for our negotiations, we will only get served dog meat unless CX is forced to give more, as was the case by the labor tribuneral in regards to the special allowance with BPP(It's for ALL CX level D staff, not just local captains).

No point in matching these immature tit for tat verbal dribbles!

[Hiro Nakimura]

mr fox

Do what I did - ring and ask and the AOA will confirm the meeting. Then ask them why it was only backdated to 1st July and they will tell you there was no one prepared to be a plaintiff. The case was a certainty and the result would have been backpayed housing allowance into the millions. Still all the non members can continue to believe it had nothing to do with the AOA.

[mrfox]

Good idea.

Dear AOA,

I am a Cathay pilot emailing you with concern for the recently negotiated bypass allowance for Cathay pilots on local contracts.

I would like to request some information regarding the AOA's involvement in the said negotiations.

Suspicions abound that the negotiations between the LEPs, Cathay, and the Labour tribunal had been on-going for some time, with negligible AOA contribution, and that the AOA merely swooped in at the last minute and took undue credit for the "kill".

I'd like to get the AOA's side of the story.

When did the AOA get involve in the issue? Through what process was the issue raised, and by whom? What specific actions did the AOA take in this matter. and when? Are there any dated records, documentation, communicates, meeting minutes, etc, regarding the AOA's involvement that can be made available to myself and the rest of the pilot body? It'd really help to shed some light on the issue.

Please substitute appropriate summaries if actual documentation cannot be made available.

Thank you for your help.

Sincerely,
CX Pilot

[SMOC]

mrfox,

Have you actually sent that letter or hoping an AOA member in the know will answer here?

Cheers SMOC

[Liam Gallagher]

More mrfox

We both know that the reason you don't want to answer my question is that to do so will de-base your whole argument.

I have no issue with you trying to improve your COS.... just spare me the moral crusade...

PS. In your crusade do you include the Cabin Crew, Engineers; or does their inclusion not suit your purposes...?

[TGIG]

The core issue has always been doing the same job with vastly different remuneration + allowances, or even with a senior rank offered the same pay as someone more junior.
The inclusion of cc and engineers does not dilute this issue, if anything it strengthen the fact that something should be done to increase workplace equality. Your argument can be extended to office workers, managers, cleaners or whatever. So lets just sit on our hands and pretend it's not happening because it's too big to deal with?
This issue is bigger than just pilots and more to do with the way Hong Kong allows itself to be treated.

[Jet-Rage]

LEP Housing

What the LEPs are most disadvantaged by is the fact that their overall income is effectively less than half what an expat based in Hong Kong gets (for an FO)! All other benefits may be the same but it is the housing that is worth the most. In the case of F/O's the rent free zone alone is more than a standard post QL salary. It doesn't matter under what title you assign the allowance but income is income! The government taxes it so it is money into the paycheck. Were the housing allowance (and education allowance) not such a big sum it would not be reasonable for LEPs to feel hard done by. However, it is a considerable sum and over a career it is worth many millions of dollars.

Most of you know well or have flown with many LEPs and you will see that their reasonable expectations out of a career with CX is not so different to anyone elses. Many have returned from overseas and and not that local, especially the non-chinese LEPs. Why should they have to pay the cost of their training in Adelaide for their entire careers?

BA cadets are on a lower deal for the first 5 years of their career and then are deemed to have paid back the company's investment in their training. For GUlf Air, Qatar and Etihad cadets their penalty period is about 1-2 years before they get full housing and benefits etc. Why should CX cadets pay off this debt for a whole lifetime?

Based pilots don't get housing but at least they can return to HKG one day if they so choose to tap into the greater salary and allowances and even tap into the potentially lucrative property market. So many guys have maid a mint in HKG from property and thus their housing allowances. Locals get screwed both ends of the basing system whether based in HKG or elsewhere. Why don't they get expat housing then on a base since afterall they will then become expats? They are always locals wherever they go.

They should join the Union and support all the other important issues and efforts made by the AOA but the union itself needs to extend an olive branch to this growing group by committing itself to getting full benefits for the LEP boys at some stage of their career. When are they deemed to have paid back their training? Financially at about the 3 year mark i.e. JFO. Psychologically for the management maybe much later. However, on reaching the highest rank of Captain surely they must be deemed to have reached the point at which they have not only served the company well but also saved them enough money.

Maybe not allowances across the board for all LEPs but a point in time needs to be established at when they are considered to have done their time like all other pilots and deserve the standard Cathay deal for a Hong Kong base.