Why YOU should join the AOA!
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Why YOU should join the AOA!
A lot of people don't want to join the AOA due to the associations pathetic performance during the last few years - especially under ST who thought a round of golf with the boss would work it all out.
Granted the AOA might not be much use when it comes to getting you a payrise anytime soon..
HOWEVER
When it comes to taking on the company for violation/misinterpretation of our contract the AOA still has a lot of power purely because these are legal matters and are not negotiable. However someone must bite the bullet do the groundwork and pay for the lawyer to sort these things out.
For that reason alone you should all join.
Its not neccessarily about gaining much - is about stopping the deterioration.
Granted the AOA might not be much use when it comes to getting you a payrise anytime soon..
HOWEVER
When it comes to taking on the company for violation/misinterpretation of our contract the AOA still has a lot of power purely because these are legal matters and are not negotiable. However someone must bite the bullet do the groundwork and pay for the lawyer to sort these things out.
For that reason alone you should all join.
Its not neccessarily about gaining much - is about stopping the deterioration.
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Here here!!!
Bring on the ney sayers though but before you all bag the crap out of this, please also add your solution to our problems and how you would negotiate without a union, so rant on after that!!!!
Bring on the ney sayers though but before you all bag the crap out of this, please also add your solution to our problems and how you would negotiate without a union, so rant on after that!!!!
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Here Is Another Reason..
The Standard - Hong Kong's First FREE English Newspaper
Hasn't this actually happenend before OUT of RUH ? , and the CAD okayed that one as well , its about time the CAD had some mud thrown at them and held in contempt , I have absolutely no respect for this GOVT dept , a bunch of cx pleasing idiots.....its goes on and on with this bunch . some days I wonder if this lot are owned by cx?
STAND UP FOR YOUR CONTRACT , DONT LET IT GET WASHED ANY FURTHER DOWN THE TOILET THAN IT ALREADY IS
Hasn't this actually happenend before OUT of RUH ? , and the CAD okayed that one as well , its about time the CAD had some mud thrown at them and held in contempt , I have absolutely no respect for this GOVT dept , a bunch of cx pleasing idiots.....its goes on and on with this bunch . some days I wonder if this lot are owned by cx?
STAND UP FOR YOUR CONTRACT , DONT LET IT GET WASHED ANY FURTHER DOWN THE TOILET THAN IT ALREADY IS
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oh boy will people ever get it
YOU are the bl@@dy AOA! I am the AOA! We are all the AOA! Even if you're not a member you're having an effect... by weakening the only association that the company will negotiate with (for better or for worse) and strengthening the company's position.
The AOA is not "them", it is not some abstract impenetrable monolithic institution, it is composed of a president (new, recently voted in) a General Council (recently voted in, not just HKG A scale captains but plenty of SOs/FOs/freighter guys/based guys, a veritable CX cross-section) and a membership which is YOU AND ME and the other pilots you see milling about at despatch!
I too do not like much of what "the AOA" has done in the past, and it certainly is far from perfect even today, but that's not the point; if you don't like what is going on, bl@@dy well join up so you can vote or better yet volunteer or get yourself on the GC and change things... otherwise quit your collective moaning!
Rant over. Breathing deeply now.
However, really chaps, stop asking what the AOA has ever done for you and start considering how YOU could contribute to our collective well-being... start by joining and getting involved.
The AOA is not "them", it is not some abstract impenetrable monolithic institution, it is composed of a president (new, recently voted in) a General Council (recently voted in, not just HKG A scale captains but plenty of SOs/FOs/freighter guys/based guys, a veritable CX cross-section) and a membership which is YOU AND ME and the other pilots you see milling about at despatch!
I too do not like much of what "the AOA" has done in the past, and it certainly is far from perfect even today, but that's not the point; if you don't like what is going on, bl@@dy well join up so you can vote or better yet volunteer or get yourself on the GC and change things... otherwise quit your collective moaning!
Rant over. Breathing deeply now.
However, really chaps, stop asking what the AOA has ever done for you and start considering how YOU could contribute to our collective well-being... start by joining and getting involved.
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The "AOA" is starting to sound like some sort of religion...youre saying that we should all discount the prior history of failure in the AOA, join up and take it on FAITH that things will get better?!?!
If you REALLY want to change things, join CX management, not some sycophantic Association.
A
A...NO WAY!!
If you REALLY want to change things, join CX management, not some sycophantic Association.
A
A...NO WAY!!
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Originally Posted by AMCS
ILovePx:- you pathetic excuse for a FELLOW COLLEAGUE.
I hope you get what you deserve.
I hope you get what you deserve.
You must be part of the radical break-away sect of the AOA. If only you could channel that anger into fighting the company instead of saying yes all the time.
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In response to joining the AOA.
First and foremost they have to entice me to join.
How???
Well what do they offer? Are they a good investment? After all I am putting my money into an association that is supposed to look after my interests. So I ask the question "Do they look after my interests?"
What are they prepared to do? What am I prepared to do for them in return?
In business I look for results. Plain and simple. If you don't perform them I look elsewhere. However with the AOA there is nowhere else to look, so this is hard.
I also look at the facts
1. Unions are legal.
2. Unions in HK have no legal grounds to do anything.
So where does that leave us?
Good question!
What has the AOA done to show me that they represent my views, listen to my opinion and would represent me if needed?
I will not answer that question here but if does promote some serious discussion.
I have watched the youtube video and listened to my fellow pilots but I am still sitting on the fence. You have not shown me why I should join the union.
Even with 56% of the pilot body behind you, what are you doing to show" just cause" to why I should join the union?
I know the unions up here in HK have no legal ground to stand upon to fight CX but please... please show some balls and listen to your members and attempt to resolve their issues.
Even with member number just above the 50% mark you can't sit back and claim that you don't have enough members. Be active and engage the management. Don't go into every battle claiming that you won't win, go into battle to protest the unjust. Go into battle to stand up for your members.
Doing this would entice me to join the AOA. Until then.. I will sit and watch you.....
At the moment I would rather join the Watsons' Water workers. At least they get their payrise!
First and foremost they have to entice me to join.
How???
Well what do they offer? Are they a good investment? After all I am putting my money into an association that is supposed to look after my interests. So I ask the question "Do they look after my interests?"
What are they prepared to do? What am I prepared to do for them in return?
In business I look for results. Plain and simple. If you don't perform them I look elsewhere. However with the AOA there is nowhere else to look, so this is hard.
I also look at the facts
1. Unions are legal.
2. Unions in HK have no legal grounds to do anything.
So where does that leave us?
Good question!
What has the AOA done to show me that they represent my views, listen to my opinion and would represent me if needed?
I will not answer that question here but if does promote some serious discussion.
I have watched the youtube video and listened to my fellow pilots but I am still sitting on the fence. You have not shown me why I should join the union.
Even with 56% of the pilot body behind you, what are you doing to show" just cause" to why I should join the union?
I know the unions up here in HK have no legal ground to stand upon to fight CX but please... please show some balls and listen to your members and attempt to resolve their issues.
Even with member number just above the 50% mark you can't sit back and claim that you don't have enough members. Be active and engage the management. Don't go into every battle claiming that you won't win, go into battle to protest the unjust. Go into battle to stand up for your members.
Doing this would entice me to join the AOA. Until then.. I will sit and watch you.....
At the moment I would rather join the Watsons' Water workers. At least they get their payrise!
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The "AOA" is starting to sound like some sort of religion...
ONLY if you are a member do you get a say: a vote, the chance to email your GC representative and voice concerns.
youre saying that we should all discount the prior history of failure in the AOA, join up and take it on FAITH that things will get better?!?!
You certainly can't beat them, so join them!
I may be a little extreme, but in my opinion if you do not make the effort and accept the (rather small) financial cost of being a member of the only group the airline will negotiate with, then you have NO RIGHT TO WHINGE ABOUT CURRENT CONDITIONS.
Oh boy, I was ranting again.
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IluvPx,
I am curious - why are you so anti AOA? To continue your religious metaphor, does an Atheist go around loudly condemning those with religious belief because God let the Atheist down in the past?
Of nearly all the bad things that have happened over my 16 years here I can't think of a single one that was caused by the AOA. CX introduced B scales, CX put a new contract in my mailbox in 94, CX created ASL in 96, CX degraded medical for new joiners from Jun96 onwards, CX said 'sign or be fired' to half of us in 99, CX fired 49 of our colleagues in 2001, CX failed to give payrises to B scalers for 6 out of the last 7 years, CX forced the end of the FACA, CX reintegrated(badly) the KA freighters, CX has recruited de facto DECs, CX has offered salary/conditions below normal parsimonius standards to ex O8 and then loudly proclaimed themselves as 'saviours' for reemploying them.
Now A scalers, B scalers, ASL employees, Freighter pilots, KA pilots, DEFOs and ex oasis pilots have caused - wait for it - none of our problems.
The AOA is merely the representative group for just over half the pilots - IluvPX, if you have really given up on CX and the AOA then I don't blame you for wanting to save the 1.25% in subs. I don't know why but I haven't given up yet - and I honestly do believe that we can make a difference....with support from the pilot body!!!!
I can't remember who said it, but a great saying I have heard "If you believe you can't change anything, you can't!"
I am curious - why are you so anti AOA? To continue your religious metaphor, does an Atheist go around loudly condemning those with religious belief because God let the Atheist down in the past?
Of nearly all the bad things that have happened over my 16 years here I can't think of a single one that was caused by the AOA. CX introduced B scales, CX put a new contract in my mailbox in 94, CX created ASL in 96, CX degraded medical for new joiners from Jun96 onwards, CX said 'sign or be fired' to half of us in 99, CX fired 49 of our colleagues in 2001, CX failed to give payrises to B scalers for 6 out of the last 7 years, CX forced the end of the FACA, CX reintegrated(badly) the KA freighters, CX has recruited de facto DECs, CX has offered salary/conditions below normal parsimonius standards to ex O8 and then loudly proclaimed themselves as 'saviours' for reemploying them.
Now A scalers, B scalers, ASL employees, Freighter pilots, KA pilots, DEFOs and ex oasis pilots have caused - wait for it - none of our problems.
The AOA is merely the representative group for just over half the pilots - IluvPX, if you have really given up on CX and the AOA then I don't blame you for wanting to save the 1.25% in subs. I don't know why but I haven't given up yet - and I honestly do believe that we can make a difference....with support from the pilot body!!!!
I can't remember who said it, but a great saying I have heard "If you believe you can't change anything, you can't!"
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Main Dog, you werent ranting, good points(except the whole dem party thing..). I appreciate your stance. Mine just happens to differ; however my dim view of the AOA is supported by it's dismal track record.
NC, you know im a fan of yours, arguing with you is like talking back to my parents. So excuse my insolence, but every "bad thing that happened over your 16 years" you attribute to CX and not to the AOA.
The company is in the business of making money. One way they do this is by reducing costs, lowering benefits, different pay scales, intimidation, and other questionable means. Is it ethical? No, but it makes Swire money and that is their job. They get an A+ for their work.
The AOA's job is to mitigate, if not prevent any loss of conditions. Ideally, they should be improving our contracts, pay, time off, etc. If you were to grade the AOA on this, what would it be? Might as well start at an F- and work up from there...you wont have far to go.
According to you CX just imposed all of these reductions to your conditions over the last 16 years. Where was the AOA? They either a) attempted to stop the company and were unsuccessful, or b) colluded with the company. The net result was still the same. A steady decline in pay and conditions of service ever since they agreed to B-scale.
Even if they didnt agree to, for example, B-scales, and it was imposed instead by the company, then whats its purpose? The AOA is not unlike the UN. Something happens, they rally the troops, and write "strong" letters expressing their discontent, but in the end, accomplish nothing. Its not the subs that bother me, its the chronic inaction.
So ask yourself this, how has being an AOA member for 16 years benefitted you? Is the package for a new guy joining today equal to or better than the one you joined on? What do you have to show for those 16 years of subs and support?
Solution? A union with competent, professional people running the shop, and strong alliances with the FAU, HAKEO, etc. A full-time lawyer and professional negotiator, not some pilot who once watched a "how-to" video on corporate negotiations, during a pacific crossing. The only way to go is up...
NC, you know im a fan of yours, arguing with you is like talking back to my parents. So excuse my insolence, but every "bad thing that happened over your 16 years" you attribute to CX and not to the AOA.
The company is in the business of making money. One way they do this is by reducing costs, lowering benefits, different pay scales, intimidation, and other questionable means. Is it ethical? No, but it makes Swire money and that is their job. They get an A+ for their work.
The AOA's job is to mitigate, if not prevent any loss of conditions. Ideally, they should be improving our contracts, pay, time off, etc. If you were to grade the AOA on this, what would it be? Might as well start at an F- and work up from there...you wont have far to go.
According to you CX just imposed all of these reductions to your conditions over the last 16 years. Where was the AOA? They either a) attempted to stop the company and were unsuccessful, or b) colluded with the company. The net result was still the same. A steady decline in pay and conditions of service ever since they agreed to B-scale.
Even if they didnt agree to, for example, B-scales, and it was imposed instead by the company, then whats its purpose? The AOA is not unlike the UN. Something happens, they rally the troops, and write "strong" letters expressing their discontent, but in the end, accomplish nothing. Its not the subs that bother me, its the chronic inaction.
So ask yourself this, how has being an AOA member for 16 years benefitted you? Is the package for a new guy joining today equal to or better than the one you joined on? What do you have to show for those 16 years of subs and support?
Solution? A union with competent, professional people running the shop, and strong alliances with the FAU, HAKEO, etc. A full-time lawyer and professional negotiator, not some pilot who once watched a "how-to" video on corporate negotiations, during a pacific crossing. The only way to go is up...
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however my dim view of the AOA is supported by it's dismal track record
We agree, and we've flogged that dead horse long enough. Now move past that point: what are YOU going to do about it? Sitting on the sidelines and complaining will make not ONE WHIT of difference: if you do that, you've already lost.
Joining, on the other hand, and getting a vote, voicing your concerns to the GC, returning surveys and generally making your voice heard and trying to IMPROVE the AOA (which, once again, is the ONLY organization CX will deal with), just MIGHT make a difference.
You make some good points: why not bring them up with our GC reps?
There is fresh blood in the GC and a new guy sitting in the president's chair. Please guys, give it some consideration... I think the AOA (in other words WE) are ready to turn over a new leaf.
MD (gets off soapbox)
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Solution? A union with competent, professional people running the shop, and strong alliances with the FAU, HAKEO, etc. A full-time lawyer and professional negotiator, not some pilot who once watched a "how-to" video on corporate negotiations, during a pacific crossing. The only way to go is up...
That should get their attention...
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Slapfaan
Ok lads, I'm sure most of you are aware of this, so this one is for those that were not aware....NC, correct me if I am wrong (being an ex-GC representative - or unless the Company has changed it's methods of negotiation)...
I spoke with PV, our No:2 on the GC regarding negotiations, in particular, I asked why doesn't the AOA use solely professional negotiators and lawyers to act on behalf of the membership instead of the GC reps doing all the talking and was told that neither our DFO nor our GMA recognise either (professional negotiators or lawyers) as authorised representatives for the pilot group. PV explained that even when JF is sitting in on the negotiations, if he (JF) disagrees with anything pertaining to legality, he cannot just open his mouth and say something - he needs to look at PV, ask him to stop the negotiations and step out for a few minutes to discuss things privately.
Doing things such as
will just add fuel to the fire that we are trying to harness rather than stamp out.
I spoke with PV, our No:2 on the GC regarding negotiations, in particular, I asked why doesn't the AOA use solely professional negotiators and lawyers to act on behalf of the membership instead of the GC reps doing all the talking and was told that neither our DFO nor our GMA recognise either (professional negotiators or lawyers) as authorised representatives for the pilot group. PV explained that even when JF is sitting in on the negotiations, if he (JF) disagrees with anything pertaining to legality, he cannot just open his mouth and say something - he needs to look at PV, ask him to stop the negotiations and step out for a few minutes to discuss things privately.
Doing things such as
a couple of "..we DEMAND.." letters should be send to CX..with a friendly but stern "..if you don't comply,we WILL strike!!"
That should get their attention
That should get their attention