Why YOU should join the AOA!
I love it when guys like COKEZERO criticise the AOA and later ACCEPT without hesitation the improvements WE NEGOTIATED.
there's a word for guys like you.
there's a word for guys like you.
Last edited by ACMS; 5th Sep 2008 at 10:09.
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I love it when guys like COKEZERO criticise the AOA and later ACCEPT without hesitation the improvements WE NEGOTIATED.
there's a word for guys like you.
Australian !!!!!!!!
there's a word for guys like you.
Australian !!!!!!!!
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Have to be Australian! That’s a bit rough!
Clearly the company is not executing the COS in the spirit in which it was written. Direct entry Captains, direct entry FO’s on base, Bypass pay issues. The list is extensive and has all been mentioned before.
I choose to join the AOA for a year to 18 months and see if any positive outcome is likely.
Otherwise time to disband and move on.
Possibly to Emirates.
Cheers
Clearly the company is not executing the COS in the spirit in which it was written. Direct entry Captains, direct entry FO’s on base, Bypass pay issues. The list is extensive and has all been mentioned before.
I choose to join the AOA for a year to 18 months and see if any positive outcome is likely.
Otherwise time to disband and move on.
Possibly to Emirates.
Cheers
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ACMS
"ACCEPT without hesitation the improvements WE NEGOTIATED"
I understand that my COS have been dictated by the AOA and I have to accept the good and bad aspects of it, even if I am a member of AOA of the CPU still doesn't change anything.
And by saying that do I still sound like an Aussie? Never been called an Aussie before. I'll think about that one. I don't know whether to take it as a compliment or not?
"ACCEPT without hesitation the improvements WE NEGOTIATED"
I understand that my COS have been dictated by the AOA and I have to accept the good and bad aspects of it, even if I am a member of AOA of the CPU still doesn't change anything.
And by saying that do I still sound like an Aussie? Never been called an Aussie before. I'll think about that one. I don't know whether to take it as a compliment or not?
so COKE man, do you always allow other people to do your bidding for you?
Because that's what the AOA does.
Maybe you could try to do the right thing for US ALL and JOIN up.
Who knows, you might be able to actually affect an outcome.
Now wouldn't that be something to tell your grandchildren about.
Because that's what the AOA does.
Maybe you could try to do the right thing for US ALL and JOIN up.
Who knows, you might be able to actually affect an outcome.
Now wouldn't that be something to tell your grandchildren about.
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Originally Posted by ACMS
I love it when guys like COKEZERO criticise the AOA and later ACCEPT without hesitation the improvements WE NEGOTIATED.
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iLovePX
You still on here ranting about why your too cheap to join the AOA?
Still happy to allow them to negotiate on your behalf? Why don't you go see the GMA and ask if he can negotiate a personal contract, just for you since your so unhappy with what the GC are obtaining...
Then you can let us all know how well you did......
You still on here ranting about why your too cheap to join the AOA?
Still happy to allow them to negotiate on your behalf? Why don't you go see the GMA and ask if he can negotiate a personal contract, just for you since your so unhappy with what the GC are obtaining...
Then you can let us all know how well you did......
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IluvPX,
sorry to introduce more rational debate onto this forum;-)
I have been thinking about what you have said. I have seen/known the starting positions of both the AOA and CX in several negotiations since 1999. If our starting position was 100 and CX's was 0, we have invariably ended up at position 5-10. So yes I could make an argument for not wasting your 1.25% - but then again, was the CX starting position affected by knowing they had to come up against the AOA? Would the CX position without the AOA be -10? Given the weak position the AOA has been in for the last 5 years it seems that maybe that is true as the company has only seen fit to endow some of us with a single 3% payrise to cover 7 years of inflation/exchange rate deterioration.
So is the end result of 5 to 10 worth being in the union? I think so. What I do know is that the AOA has stamped out many small injustices over time - they are not headline wins but they help!
I liken the AOA role to that of Hawkeye Pearce in the TV show MASH (Korean war/medical comedy). The generals keep sending troops off needlessly to their death - all Hawkeye can do is to try and save as many lives and limbs as possible. It seens a pointless task as more men will be sent to their death, but is one life saved not still worth it?
So no there are no Headline Wins from the AOA - but I do honestly believe things would be much worse were it not for our support and involvement in the AOA. After all we are in a business utopia - corporate profits are more important than all other considerations - and managers here have heard of HRM but think it has something to do with monitoring your pulse during exercise, not dealing with your staff!
sorry to introduce more rational debate onto this forum;-)
I have been thinking about what you have said. I have seen/known the starting positions of both the AOA and CX in several negotiations since 1999. If our starting position was 100 and CX's was 0, we have invariably ended up at position 5-10. So yes I could make an argument for not wasting your 1.25% - but then again, was the CX starting position affected by knowing they had to come up against the AOA? Would the CX position without the AOA be -10? Given the weak position the AOA has been in for the last 5 years it seems that maybe that is true as the company has only seen fit to endow some of us with a single 3% payrise to cover 7 years of inflation/exchange rate deterioration.
So is the end result of 5 to 10 worth being in the union? I think so. What I do know is that the AOA has stamped out many small injustices over time - they are not headline wins but they help!
I liken the AOA role to that of Hawkeye Pearce in the TV show MASH (Korean war/medical comedy). The generals keep sending troops off needlessly to their death - all Hawkeye can do is to try and save as many lives and limbs as possible. It seens a pointless task as more men will be sent to their death, but is one life saved not still worth it?
So no there are no Headline Wins from the AOA - but I do honestly believe things would be much worse were it not for our support and involvement in the AOA. After all we are in a business utopia - corporate profits are more important than all other considerations - and managers here have heard of HRM but think it has something to do with monitoring your pulse during exercise, not dealing with your staff!
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Hellenic Aviator,
good question! Yes CX once made it impossible to negotiate with professional negotiators. Not sure of the 'official' status of using non pilot negotiators today though. But to answer can I give you an analogy(sorry, rhetorical question as I am going to anyway;-)
No matter how good a negotiator, how much will you get for a used car thats worth $5,000 if your potential purchaser is only prepared to pay $5 - you prove that all the same model cars are selling everywhere else in the world for more than $5,000 and in fact their prices are rising! Your buyer says "take it elsewhere and sell it there then" - what do you do? Bring in a skilful negotiator? If you can't move the car, or don't want to move the car, how do you convince him to pay more?
What do you think finally got KA their deal last year given they have probably spent the better half of the last decade or so in contract compliance? KA remuneration was not reward enough to retain their pilots - out of economic necessity KA had to improve their pay (about equal to CX!) just to slow the hemorrhaging.
I don't believe professional negotiators, or lack of them, are the problem. You need something to bargain with, something to trade. So far we have given them goodwill for most of this decade and are now reaping the ample rewards (sarcasm alert!) If you want something you have to make what they offer cost less than the alternative - simple economics!
good question! Yes CX once made it impossible to negotiate with professional negotiators. Not sure of the 'official' status of using non pilot negotiators today though. But to answer can I give you an analogy(sorry, rhetorical question as I am going to anyway;-)
No matter how good a negotiator, how much will you get for a used car thats worth $5,000 if your potential purchaser is only prepared to pay $5 - you prove that all the same model cars are selling everywhere else in the world for more than $5,000 and in fact their prices are rising! Your buyer says "take it elsewhere and sell it there then" - what do you do? Bring in a skilful negotiator? If you can't move the car, or don't want to move the car, how do you convince him to pay more?
What do you think finally got KA their deal last year given they have probably spent the better half of the last decade or so in contract compliance? KA remuneration was not reward enough to retain their pilots - out of economic necessity KA had to improve their pay (about equal to CX!) just to slow the hemorrhaging.
I don't believe professional negotiators, or lack of them, are the problem. You need something to bargain with, something to trade. So far we have given them goodwill for most of this decade and are now reaping the ample rewards (sarcasm alert!) If you want something you have to make what they offer cost less than the alternative - simple economics!
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I choose to join the AOA for a year to 18 months and see if any positive outcome is likely.
Do yourself a favour and opt out now..you can save 18 months of subscription fees and buy yourself a new toy..
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ACMS
As I am not part of the AOA I can have to let other people do my bidding. Do I get upset when they fail to get me a payrise - Yes. Do I get upset when they fail to uphold by bypass pay - Yes. Do I get upset when they can't adhere to roster practices - Yes. Do I get upset when they let the company walk over good pilots - Yes. Do I get upset when the AOA should be "Working to Order" - Yes. Do I work my G Days - NO!!!, Do I keep an open mind - YES.
I do not want to put my money into an Association that does not listen to my views. When I have approached various CG Members I'm told that they are working on solutions to various problems that are mentioned (Openly) in general conversation around the CX corridors. When asked again some months later about the same problem I'm told that "It's not worth our time to follow up on such issues" and "We would never win" or the classic statement "We don't want to rock the boat".
This is not impressive by any means.
Am I a member of a Union? Yes - I choose to keep my membership in my home country. I still get my legal rights - if I ever have an incident in Japan. The insurance is a joke in HK.
Do I support the AOA - no. It's great to have faith in a system but over the years of constant bickering, back-stabbing, lying etc ... I have lost faith in such a system.
If the AOA ever wanted to go on strike with CX - I would support them. And if the AOA ever wanted to go ahead with contract compliance - then I would also support them. The big question is would they?
And to be brutally honest - if CX pilots went on strike the company would fire everyone. However they would never get pilots to work for them ever again. Two mass firing in less than 10 years! The Swire & Cathay name would be mud in a lot of people eyes. Those people being pilots and customers.
So I continue to watch from the outside and see what happens to my contract and see what the AOA is going to negotiate away. This is a great time to take everything from the company. The ex-Oasis boys aren't going to stay long. Then we are still in the same position that we were last year. Lack of pilots and more planes coming.
The whole DEC's and lower pay conditions is another matter for another topic.
I have thought about your Aussie comment - Not a bad title but do I have to support their cricket team? The women's beach volleyball team I could support.
As I am not part of the AOA I can have to let other people do my bidding. Do I get upset when they fail to get me a payrise - Yes. Do I get upset when they fail to uphold by bypass pay - Yes. Do I get upset when they can't adhere to roster practices - Yes. Do I get upset when they let the company walk over good pilots - Yes. Do I get upset when the AOA should be "Working to Order" - Yes. Do I work my G Days - NO!!!, Do I keep an open mind - YES.
I do not want to put my money into an Association that does not listen to my views. When I have approached various CG Members I'm told that they are working on solutions to various problems that are mentioned (Openly) in general conversation around the CX corridors. When asked again some months later about the same problem I'm told that "It's not worth our time to follow up on such issues" and "We would never win" or the classic statement "We don't want to rock the boat".
This is not impressive by any means.
Am I a member of a Union? Yes - I choose to keep my membership in my home country. I still get my legal rights - if I ever have an incident in Japan. The insurance is a joke in HK.
Do I support the AOA - no. It's great to have faith in a system but over the years of constant bickering, back-stabbing, lying etc ... I have lost faith in such a system.
If the AOA ever wanted to go on strike with CX - I would support them. And if the AOA ever wanted to go ahead with contract compliance - then I would also support them. The big question is would they?
And to be brutally honest - if CX pilots went on strike the company would fire everyone. However they would never get pilots to work for them ever again. Two mass firing in less than 10 years! The Swire & Cathay name would be mud in a lot of people eyes. Those people being pilots and customers.
So I continue to watch from the outside and see what happens to my contract and see what the AOA is going to negotiate away. This is a great time to take everything from the company. The ex-Oasis boys aren't going to stay long. Then we are still in the same position that we were last year. Lack of pilots and more planes coming.
The whole DEC's and lower pay conditions is another matter for another topic.
I have thought about your Aussie comment - Not a bad title but do I have to support their cricket team? The women's beach volleyball team I could support.
I DIDN'T MAKE THE AUSSIE COMMENT.
itwilldoatrip DID
I had a much worse name for people like you.
Do you live in HK? Bought an Apartment perhaps? Renting a nice place perhaps?
Fanbloodytastic Housing scheme we have isn't it?
Yep that's right, OUR AOA negotiated that little gem.
So stick that in ya pipe and smoke it.
itwilldoatrip DID
I had a much worse name for people like you.
.....see what the AOA is going to negotiate away.
Fanbloodytastic Housing scheme we have isn't it?
Yep that's right, OUR AOA negotiated that little gem.
So stick that in ya pipe and smoke it.
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Nothing will improve unless the membership level improves. Not joining because nothing gets dealt with is easy but not a solution.Things will only move forward once we all stick together.
Strong unions exists in countries where membership is mandatory by labour laws. The problem isn't the AOA as an entity, it`s us not believing we can make a difference by all joining. Your personnal views won't always be satisfied by the union's decisions, but that's the story for every unions in whatever industry. Read about the recent decision by the Boeing workers' union to delay a strike, though the vote was for it at 87%! In their case however, people don't quit the union and thus they keep their negociating power.
I too am frustrated at the lack of progress from the AOA. But it`s to be expected when only half of us are members.
Strong unions exists in countries where membership is mandatory by labour laws. The problem isn't the AOA as an entity, it`s us not believing we can make a difference by all joining. Your personnal views won't always be satisfied by the union's decisions, but that's the story for every unions in whatever industry. Read about the recent decision by the Boeing workers' union to delay a strike, though the vote was for it at 87%! In their case however, people don't quit the union and thus they keep their negociating power.
I too am frustrated at the lack of progress from the AOA. But it`s to be expected when only half of us are members.
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ACMS,
Want more guys to join the AOA? How about you stop all this bitter bile you like to throw at every non AOA member.
Get over the fact that some guys don't want to join, that's life. Your not helping the cause when you write and abuse anyone with a different view on the subject.
Want more guys to join the AOA? How about you stop all this bitter bile you like to throw at every non AOA member.
Get over the fact that some guys don't want to join, that's life. Your not helping the cause when you write and abuse anyone with a different view on the subject.
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Guilty about what? Do you mean am I in the AOA, then yes I am, but your childish rant at every non member is getting very boring. With regard to sticks and stone and glasshouses, not sure where you going with that on but I bet you don't either.
How about you stop ranting for the holy month of Ramadan. Do us all a favour.
How about you stop ranting for the holy month of Ramadan. Do us all a favour.
