how Many are leaving ??
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In general CRM is crap at CX. The Captains - although in genereal very knowledgeable - are put up on a pedestal. One to many CMDs have still not realized, mainly due to lack of ability and education from the company side, that civilavition is no longer a one mans show. Its still common to come across a long sleeved brit (at least on the -400) who thinks his god and that he is flying on the best F...... airplane in the world for the best F...... airline on the best F...... CoS - it might be the best F..... airplane (-400) in the world (and who cares about anything as materialistic as that?!) but boys I've got news (or maybe not!) - it AIN'T the best F...... airline in the world - what leaves us back to where "we" started.. Guys and Girls are LEAVING this outfit - for reasons that is oh so obvious - take a glance through this little "oasis" section - Fragrant Habour - it speaks for it self. The only other "airline" that seems to be pulling an equal amount of **** is Ryanair - and that is for other reasons than this one..
And right - I wonder if that dude who has the guts to hit on Americans (though I can find many other reasons to hit on you guys ;o) ) with pathetic arguments like "go fly your CRJ/F14 etc.." - shows the attitude within CX at its worst!
Im very happy for many of you/us that our industry once again are moving towards new hights - go for the greener grass - its is out there - trust me on that one. If you have the chance to stay "home" (and thats what you want) - do just that and wait for the bigger ones there to call you.
Good luck chaps and gals.
Y
And right - I wonder if that dude who has the guts to hit on Americans (though I can find many other reasons to hit on you guys ;o) ) with pathetic arguments like "go fly your CRJ/F14 etc.." - shows the attitude within CX at its worst!
Im very happy for many of you/us that our industry once again are moving towards new hights - go for the greener grass - its is out there - trust me on that one. If you have the chance to stay "home" (and thats what you want) - do just that and wait for the bigger ones there to call you.
Good luck chaps and gals.
Y
Actually I do have more to say.
I'm really getting sick and tired of the grownups out there that can't accept the fact that they failed. They keep blaming everyone possible except for themselves. That's right, in most cases ( and there are exceptions ) they can only hold themselves responsible for their problems. If they've been doing their job in Cx for a number of years then any upgrade should be a achievable. The system is not perfect, there are trainers who shouldn't be training but..........an upgrade is achievable to the average guy.
The only way Cx is accountable is in hiring these guys in the first place.
I'm sorry if the truth hurts ..............
The same thing goes for KA command failures. I know a few that failed on their first attempt at command in KA too, they blamed everybody under the sun except themselves. After they passed the second attempt they woke up and accepted they weren't prepared the first time.
So who is the best Airline in the world? Cx isn't, who is? But we are at the top of the tree and I'll damn sure stand up for what I know to be right. Cx standards are some of the highest in the Airline community. Sure there used to be Captains on the 400 that didn't know the first thing about CRM, fortunately just about all of them have long retired and the current bunch are exceptional. It's even better on the 777 fleet. Ask any FO who flies it.
I've worked for 3 major Airlines in a 20+ year career, 14 of those in Cx so I think I have a little perspective. I've flown with Kiwi's, Yanks, Canadians, South Africans, Brits and Australians and it really doesn't matter where they're from it what's inside em that counts.As the yanks like to say "the right stuff" Cx is like any new job, you have to fit in. Now I accept that a few new joiners don't fit in here at Cx. They have a choice, move on or fit in. Quite simple really, but to blame the rest of us here is ludicrous in the extreme. Cx is not a fly by night aeroclub, it didn't just happen overnight. We have nearly 2,100 Pilots, over 100 WIDEBODY aircraft and over 60 years of development in this outfit and still counting, nothing is standing still. This company makes huge money, more money than you can imagine and thay have a well earned reputation. This is FACT, and I'm sorry if I get emotional but to think some 18 month wonder knows all that's wrong with Cx flight ops makes me sick to my stomach. He wouldn't know the first thing about Cx after 18 months.
I'm not sure I'm making sense???????? probaby not!! But you can't blame me for getting a little defensive everytime I hear someone slag off Cx and our "crap standards"
p.s. Don't forget the UA 744 that had an engine failure at VR in SFO, damn near took out the houses because the PF ( FO ) ONLY used ther ailerons to keep it straight while the Captain did ...................................nothing.
I'm really getting sick and tired of the grownups out there that can't accept the fact that they failed. They keep blaming everyone possible except for themselves. That's right, in most cases ( and there are exceptions ) they can only hold themselves responsible for their problems. If they've been doing their job in Cx for a number of years then any upgrade should be a achievable. The system is not perfect, there are trainers who shouldn't be training but..........an upgrade is achievable to the average guy.
The only way Cx is accountable is in hiring these guys in the first place.
I'm sorry if the truth hurts ..............
The same thing goes for KA command failures. I know a few that failed on their first attempt at command in KA too, they blamed everybody under the sun except themselves. After they passed the second attempt they woke up and accepted they weren't prepared the first time.
So who is the best Airline in the world? Cx isn't, who is? But we are at the top of the tree and I'll damn sure stand up for what I know to be right. Cx standards are some of the highest in the Airline community. Sure there used to be Captains on the 400 that didn't know the first thing about CRM, fortunately just about all of them have long retired and the current bunch are exceptional. It's even better on the 777 fleet. Ask any FO who flies it.
I've worked for 3 major Airlines in a 20+ year career, 14 of those in Cx so I think I have a little perspective. I've flown with Kiwi's, Yanks, Canadians, South Africans, Brits and Australians and it really doesn't matter where they're from it what's inside em that counts.As the yanks like to say "the right stuff" Cx is like any new job, you have to fit in. Now I accept that a few new joiners don't fit in here at Cx. They have a choice, move on or fit in. Quite simple really, but to blame the rest of us here is ludicrous in the extreme. Cx is not a fly by night aeroclub, it didn't just happen overnight. We have nearly 2,100 Pilots, over 100 WIDEBODY aircraft and over 60 years of development in this outfit and still counting, nothing is standing still. This company makes huge money, more money than you can imagine and thay have a well earned reputation. This is FACT, and I'm sorry if I get emotional but to think some 18 month wonder knows all that's wrong with Cx flight ops makes me sick to my stomach. He wouldn't know the first thing about Cx after 18 months.
I'm not sure I'm making sense???????? probaby not!! But you can't blame me for getting a little defensive everytime I hear someone slag off Cx and our "crap standards"
p.s. Don't forget the UA 744 that had an engine failure at VR in SFO, damn near took out the houses because the PF ( FO ) ONLY used ther ailerons to keep it straight while the Captain did ...................................nothing.
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...and ditto all the above for KA. Seems the mother is setting the "standards" for its new puppy, peeing its self with glee for its low cost acquisition. Not crap standards, but crap everything else. Can I leave, no sir those golden handcuffs wont budge boss.....
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I left CX about 4 years ago and have flown UK charter and am now at BA for the very reasons highlighted previously in between the bickering.
I found CX training to be variable at best, confrontational at worst. I achieved the required standard in each and every sim, without negative feedback, by now I would have likely achieved command.
I find it staggering that individuals such as ACMS rant defensively about the indefensible, the CX training department requires the clean broom treatment, it also requires a reality check because without it, there may not be enough junior ranks left to operate an already stretched operating schedule.
Leaving CX opened my eyes to a training environment that actively encourages learning, an environment that is transparent, an environment that recognizes that we are all individuals with strengths an weaknesses.
Reading this thread makes me glad of where I am.
I found CX training to be variable at best, confrontational at worst. I achieved the required standard in each and every sim, without negative feedback, by now I would have likely achieved command.
I find it staggering that individuals such as ACMS rant defensively about the indefensible, the CX training department requires the clean broom treatment, it also requires a reality check because without it, there may not be enough junior ranks left to operate an already stretched operating schedule.
Leaving CX opened my eyes to a training environment that actively encourages learning, an environment that is transparent, an environment that recognizes that we are all individuals with strengths an weaknesses.
Reading this thread makes me glad of where I am.
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Reply to post #87, what was said near the end
This guy has made very nasty insults about the U.S. Army needing new chopper pilots and has just felt it appropriate to bring up UAL incident out of SFO almost hitting the hill years ago.
This kind of bias is a perfect example of how Cathay works. I'll give ten to one odds that this fellow is a training, and probably one of the really nasty ones that guys always call in sick for because he can ruin their career progress with the stroke of the computer key typing up the ERAS report after seven glasses of wine in Dakotas. (but I'm sure he is so professional that he doesn't let his opinions affect his objectivity)
And before you throw stones, you might want to talk about the Cx crew who flew a go-around with the autopilot off when they thought it was on, or the crew that almost took a dip in the ocean of runways 07. I've got more, but what is the point. This guy is a complete tool. Too many of his like are in charge.
Hats off to all who leave and plan to leave. Numbers are finally talking!
I'm going to print his posts and keep them in my filing cabinet to take them out if there is ever a day in my life (not likely) that I'll ever regret leaving that fricking place.
These days I am happy to go to work. Less money, work a few more days, but life is good! Life is too short to put your career at the mercy of these tools.
This kind of bias is a perfect example of how Cathay works. I'll give ten to one odds that this fellow is a training, and probably one of the really nasty ones that guys always call in sick for because he can ruin their career progress with the stroke of the computer key typing up the ERAS report after seven glasses of wine in Dakotas. (but I'm sure he is so professional that he doesn't let his opinions affect his objectivity)
And before you throw stones, you might want to talk about the Cx crew who flew a go-around with the autopilot off when they thought it was on, or the crew that almost took a dip in the ocean of runways 07. I've got more, but what is the point. This guy is a complete tool. Too many of his like are in charge.
Hats off to all who leave and plan to leave. Numbers are finally talking!
I'm going to print his posts and keep them in my filing cabinet to take them out if there is ever a day in my life (not likely) that I'll ever regret leaving that fricking place.
These days I am happy to go to work. Less money, work a few more days, but life is good! Life is too short to put your career at the mercy of these tools.
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ACMS,
Cathay the highest airline standard in the world? wow!! I didn't think even you would say something that stupid.
newsflash: saying "check" a million times from Top of Descent to touchdown is not the definition of "high standard".
get a clue mate!!
You guys have 7 different manuals where information is repeated EVERYWHERE!! It is by far the MOST disorganized flight ops department I've ever worked for..and CX was my 4th airline!
Cathay the highest airline standard in the world? wow!! I didn't think even you would say something that stupid.
newsflash: saying "check" a million times from Top of Descent to touchdown is not the definition of "high standard".
get a clue mate!!
You guys have 7 different manuals where information is repeated EVERYWHERE!! It is by far the MOST disorganized flight ops department I've ever worked for..and CX was my 4th airline!
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ACMS you really have been there too long. I agree with CAN NOT CX is basically a GA company with a nice train set. Their procedures are pathetic. (I still haven't after 8 years been able to get a straight answer from a TC about who should be doing what during the last 100ft of an LVP approach.) I've worked for 3 majors and these guys are by far the worst airline I have worked for. They really have no clue. What is it with you and this "your bitter because you failed an upgrade BS" your probably just bitter because someone YOU failed on a check just happens to have a life!! I think it's time you left CX in search of your life ACMS......
CAN-NOT: If you re-read my post you will see the following:
I didn't say Cx was the best, we aint. But we are up there with the best.
RegretCX: seems you never read FCOM 3 for your fleet. Mate I've done probably 26 sim checks with LWMO and another real LWMO approaches in the 400 and 777 and I can tell you it works just fine. The PF ( captain ) makes the decision at the DA and the PNF stays heads down throughout the landing roll to call out any problems. What exactly do you find hard about that? It's the same in QF, BA and other Boeing standard airlines. It's not rocket science my friend. If you couldn't get a straight answer from a T/C then either he shouldn't be a T/C or you should learn to ask better questions. ( yes as I said before some T/C's shouldn't be doing it )
I am not a T/C, not enough money offered to offset the 30% increase in work, I'll keep my average lifestyle now and wait for a better roster flying the 300ER and the end of this year.
Cx have come close to CFIT before, no arguments there. By using the UA SFO example I was trying to point out that other Airlines are not perfect either.
Anyway you voted with your feet and for that you should be commended. You have done nothing to hurt the rest of us who FIT IN here at Cx, indeed you may just help us get a little bit more.
I know that I'm really looking forward to going to work in a few days and I know for a fact the F/O I'm flying with is too.
Cheers, and good luck with your careers.
over and out.
So who is the best Airline in the world? Cx isn't, who is? But we are at the top of the tree and I'll damn sure stand up for what I know to be right. Cx standards are some of the highest in the Airline community.
RegretCX: seems you never read FCOM 3 for your fleet. Mate I've done probably 26 sim checks with LWMO and another real LWMO approaches in the 400 and 777 and I can tell you it works just fine. The PF ( captain ) makes the decision at the DA and the PNF stays heads down throughout the landing roll to call out any problems. What exactly do you find hard about that? It's the same in QF, BA and other Boeing standard airlines. It's not rocket science my friend. If you couldn't get a straight answer from a T/C then either he shouldn't be a T/C or you should learn to ask better questions. ( yes as I said before some T/C's shouldn't be doing it )
I am not a T/C, not enough money offered to offset the 30% increase in work, I'll keep my average lifestyle now and wait for a better roster flying the 300ER and the end of this year.
Cx have come close to CFIT before, no arguments there. By using the UA SFO example I was trying to point out that other Airlines are not perfect either.
Anyway you voted with your feet and for that you should be commended. You have done nothing to hurt the rest of us who FIT IN here at Cx, indeed you may just help us get a little bit more.
I know that I'm really looking forward to going to work in a few days and I know for a fact the F/O I'm flying with is too.
Cheers, and good luck with your careers.
over and out.
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Wow!
After a hearty breakfast of fried eggs on toast with slightly burned but otherwise nicely fried tomatoes, complimented, at regular intervals, with ice-cold orange juice, I looked about for something to do.
There's the vaccumming, or I could clean the toilets; I might make my bed, or I might also read the newspaper, an almost archaic ritual.
Deciding to go with the proven maxim that one should never do now what can safely be put off till tomorrow, I turned on the kettle.
Feeling quite content with a nice old cup of tea, I sat down to peruse the Fragrant Harbor Forum in order that I might be more aware of how my bretheren are doing up there in Asia's World (and most polluted) City.
The thread did seem to drift off-course on Page Four, didn't it......
I recall taking a cab in the very early 90's to Sheikh Zayed Road's Crowne Plaza to call on a Cathay Pacific colleague, who I didn't know from Adam, for a coffee in his hotel's lounge, wherein we discussed the merits of joining CX - all the way back then!
To wit, I took his advice and remained with my employer of the time, not even filling out the application form that was eventually posted to me.
I earned my four bars some time thereafter, and though the going has been tough since, both there and at my new place of employment, it has never been like that described at CX, now on the PPRuNe or back then in the coffee lounge.
The internet is, as Tom Friedman punches home in 'The World is Flat', an extraordinary tool.
Some say the PPRuNe is full of bombast and bluster.
There's some truth to that, and although we often take what we want to read or hear from a circumstance, I for one feel the PPRuNe, used wisely and with caution, can be very revealing indeed.
After a hearty breakfast of fried eggs on toast with slightly burned but otherwise nicely fried tomatoes, complimented, at regular intervals, with ice-cold orange juice, I looked about for something to do.
There's the vaccumming, or I could clean the toilets; I might make my bed, or I might also read the newspaper, an almost archaic ritual.
Deciding to go with the proven maxim that one should never do now what can safely be put off till tomorrow, I turned on the kettle.
Feeling quite content with a nice old cup of tea, I sat down to peruse the Fragrant Harbor Forum in order that I might be more aware of how my bretheren are doing up there in Asia's World (and most polluted) City.
The thread did seem to drift off-course on Page Four, didn't it......
I recall taking a cab in the very early 90's to Sheikh Zayed Road's Crowne Plaza to call on a Cathay Pacific colleague, who I didn't know from Adam, for a coffee in his hotel's lounge, wherein we discussed the merits of joining CX - all the way back then!
To wit, I took his advice and remained with my employer of the time, not even filling out the application form that was eventually posted to me.
I earned my four bars some time thereafter, and though the going has been tough since, both there and at my new place of employment, it has never been like that described at CX, now on the PPRuNe or back then in the coffee lounge.
The internet is, as Tom Friedman punches home in 'The World is Flat', an extraordinary tool.
Some say the PPRuNe is full of bombast and bluster.
There's some truth to that, and although we often take what we want to read or hear from a circumstance, I for one feel the PPRuNe, used wisely and with caution, can be very revealing indeed.
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We have nearly 2,100 Pilots, over 100 WIDEBODY aircraft
The PF ( captain ) makes the decision at the DA and the PNF stays heads down throughout
Obviously a Captain who has had the chips on both shoulders inserted by those clever men on floor three, lets keep up with the terms shall we, PF and PM, or has it changed in the last few days?
LVP is Captain flying and FO eyes down, because that is all he is good for!
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Guys,
I regret sounding a bit harsh on the last few posts on here as that is not the intent! I only responded to this thread in the first place because it applies to me, since I left. Did not mean to make it a "yank" vs. anybody else thing. Many have left, but certainly not EVERYONE was an American. There are fair shares of Europeans leaving as well. Some back to old jobs and some to other LCC in Europe. But Mr. ACMS only thinks CX is losing pilots because us "yanks" can not handle the CATHAY WAY. Everyone who has left can handle it. We just chose not to put up with it.
Last thing I want to say is I hope things will improve at CX for the better, but I better not take the risk of offending our senior A scalers who still think CX is heaven on earth therefore no change is ever needed!
Hey, we didn't want to put up and shut up so we packed up and left. It was a nice train set, too bad a bunch of brats own it.
I regret sounding a bit harsh on the last few posts on here as that is not the intent! I only responded to this thread in the first place because it applies to me, since I left. Did not mean to make it a "yank" vs. anybody else thing. Many have left, but certainly not EVERYONE was an American. There are fair shares of Europeans leaving as well. Some back to old jobs and some to other LCC in Europe. But Mr. ACMS only thinks CX is losing pilots because us "yanks" can not handle the CATHAY WAY. Everyone who has left can handle it. We just chose not to put up with it.
Last thing I want to say is I hope things will improve at CX for the better, but I better not take the risk of offending our senior A scalers who still think CX is heaven on earth therefore no change is ever needed!
Hey, we didn't want to put up and shut up so we packed up and left. It was a nice train set, too bad a bunch of brats own it.
Last edited by CAN-NOT!!; 28th Feb 2007 at 04:17.
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I joined CX in Aug. of 2004 as S/O (still no upgrading in sight!). So far, of the 8 that started together, there's only 2 left.
One guy left 1 week after his LFUS.
One guy (last guy's sim partner) went to EasyJet after 1 year
One guy went to JetStar after 2 years
One guy went UPS after 2 years
One guy bailed after they extended his probation to 2 years
One guy went back to fly corporate after 2 years
Bad thing is all these people were all "junior" to me! I didn't even gain anything out of it. Bummer!!
I CAN'T WIN. BLOODY HELL
One guy left 1 week after his LFUS.
One guy (last guy's sim partner) went to EasyJet after 1 year
One guy went to JetStar after 2 years
One guy went UPS after 2 years
One guy bailed after they extended his probation to 2 years
One guy went back to fly corporate after 2 years
Bad thing is all these people were all "junior" to me! I didn't even gain anything out of it. Bummer!!
I CAN'T WIN. BLOODY HELL
Rock_On:----- nope not god, the jobs taken by someone else. Maybe Gus has it?
kanot:------- Let me get this straight, you'd like the FO heads up at the DA of around 50' to 150' at 150 kts in 20 kts crosswind with 200 m vis making the decision to land/go-around? How do you think that would look in a subsequent court of law? "so Captain why did you let the FO fly the plane when most clearly it should have been you"?
There is a time and a place for the FO to fly and another when the Captain must fly. I'm not being a ****** and saying that the FO couldn't do it, it's just that I get paid to be the A/C commander not him. Besides I like to make my own stuff ups and don't need the FO to make them for me in such a critical situation as LWMO.Why don't you ask an insurance assessor what he thinks.
You FO's will have your day soon enough, I spent 15 years as an FO in 3 different Airlines and you didn't hear me saying this crap.
Now go away and do a little growing up boys.
kanot:------- Let me get this straight, you'd like the FO heads up at the DA of around 50' to 150' at 150 kts in 20 kts crosswind with 200 m vis making the decision to land/go-around? How do you think that would look in a subsequent court of law? "so Captain why did you let the FO fly the plane when most clearly it should have been you"?
There is a time and a place for the FO to fly and another when the Captain must fly. I'm not being a ****** and saying that the FO couldn't do it, it's just that I get paid to be the A/C commander not him. Besides I like to make my own stuff ups and don't need the FO to make them for me in such a critical situation as LWMO.Why don't you ask an insurance assessor what he thinks.
You FO's will have your day soon enough, I spent 15 years as an FO in 3 different Airlines and you didn't hear me saying this crap.
Now go away and do a little growing up boys.
CAN-NOT
"LVP is Captain flying and FO eyes down, because that is all he is good for!"
No, This is a team effort operated by a crew. If you don't understand that its no wonder you've had problems. Personaly, I still feel that the original monitored approach by BA is the best system for LWMO (where the FO flys the aircraft to DA and goes around unless the Captain says "LAND" and has has control).
For those interested in BA their failure rate has gone up considerably since Hamble closed. Like all jobs if you get on the dragside you're going to have to work to get back on top.
"LVP is Captain flying and FO eyes down, because that is all he is good for!"
No, This is a team effort operated by a crew. If you don't understand that its no wonder you've had problems. Personaly, I still feel that the original monitored approach by BA is the best system for LWMO (where the FO flys the aircraft to DA and goes around unless the Captain says "LAND" and has has control).
For those interested in BA their failure rate has gone up considerably since Hamble closed. Like all jobs if you get on the dragside you're going to have to work to get back on top.
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I thought this LVP stuff was all very straight forward at Cathay? Why are we still debating this point? It, according to ACMS is all very straight forward. 
Oh and by the way ACMS I'm probably older than you anyway so lighten up on the "grow up sonny" ****e. You're not impressing me one bit!! You just really show us how much of a tosser you really are. Iv'e probably flown with you and waved goodbye with relief as we've left the terminal. Flying with you sounds as appealing as a barbed wire enema.
Oh and by the way ACMS I'm probably older than you anyway so lighten up on the "grow up sonny" ****e. You're not impressing me one bit!! You just really show us how much of a tosser you really are. Iv'e probably flown with you and waved goodbye with relief as we've left the terminal. Flying with you sounds as appealing as a barbed wire enema.
Well I'm a lot older than I look
Not one 777 FO I have ever flown with has ever left CX.
Infact I quite often get guys bid for the same trips to fly with me, we have a blast on the line. You my friend are missing out.
oh and LWMO is quite straight forward, as is any approach using Cx std calls and proceedures. Maybe you should check with Qf, they have different calls for different approaches. Something a Qf mate tells me is quite a pain in the ass.
Not one 777 FO I have ever flown with has ever left CX.
Infact I quite often get guys bid for the same trips to fly with me, we have a blast on the line. You my friend are missing out.
oh and LWMO is quite straight forward, as is any approach using Cx std calls and proceedures. Maybe you should check with Qf, they have different calls for different approaches. Something a Qf mate tells me is quite a pain in the ass.
Last edited by ACMS; 28th Feb 2007 at 09:01.