Emirates vs. Air Canada

[nolimitholdem]

ahh cool. I see by your second post you received my crayoned drawing. You're still a ways off the point, but getting closer. Hey if you say you're a master-(de)bater, then it must be true! Please don't pull out any cards, or do some sort of Raymond thing, whatever that means.

There is no "ethnocentrism" vis a vis (as you say) a certain ethnic group. But political systems? Hell yes. If you truly believe that the "system" as it is in the UAE is superior to that of Canada or other peaceful democracies, then there isn't anything to debate - we'll simply have to agree to disagree on that point. But then, I'd have to hope that you have at least lived under a range of systems so that you'd be able to make a judgement from experience, not theory. I'd hate to think you were arguing solely from petty selfishness wanting a couple more flights to DXB a week.

And trying to de-link the connection between the two systems is a hijacking of the entire debate - it IS the debate! It is the very foundation of what makes Emirates Airline "competitive": no labour protections, no creditable legal system, and an extremely lax, unaccountable regulatory regime. That's just the short list. Tell me how that "contradicts" what I have already stated: that this issue is about far more than Air Canada and the simple whining of people like yourself about "adding some frequency".

I did enjoy your cheap attempt to utilize some variant of the "race" card. The implying of racism is very convenient I know (Emiratis? Ivory towers? WTF?) but it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. If you were really concerned about racism, and actually had experienced life in the UAE, you'd realize that it was the most racist place on the planet. Watching you try to charge ethnocentrism at someone living in Dubai makes me a bit nostalgic for Canada - it's almost quaint. Perhaps I shall report you to some Human Rights Tribunal.

Please, continue to explain to me how it is here in the UAE. It's actually closer to 90% expats, of which I am one. I'll be sure to pass your thoughts along to my multinational colleagues, they're always up for a laugh. One thing they're not though, is clamouring for more service to Canada. Sorry.

I do not care about Emiratis or any specific ethnic or cultural group. But I do enjoy speaking against an organization whose methodology I have observed firsthand, attempt, through various - at times underhanded, blatantly, obscenely abusive tactics - try to dominate an industry for their own motive which seems to consist entirely of greed.

You are of course free to disagree. Ironically if you did so in the UAE you would risk negative consequences for doing so.

No to Emirates in Canada.

[Saltaire]

Have to side with GMC on this one. Nolimit, you're on the edge Mav, time to take some more time off.

Maybe move back for a job at Tim Hortons, eh?

[jinglied]

..and I'll go with "Nolimit"...

He probably is on the edge, but he's obviously lived (and is living) here. This place is nothing like the adverts.

Dubai, and EK, run the most amazingly successful marketing campaign I have ever seen. But a tourist coming through here doesn't see the 20 to a room workers/maids (yes 20 to a room). There are charity groups here that visit them from time to time for support. Those charity groups will not have a single Emerati I can gaurantee you that. Joe the Canadian probably hasn't viewed the video of the Sheiks brother torturing that poor guy a while back. (and by the way...a verdict has been reached on that case...the sheiks brother got off scott-free as he's a member of the Royal Family, and everyone else involved was convicted, even though he was obviously the ring leader)



I'm sure you're asking "what the hell has EK got to do with what's happening in the rest of the city?" EK and Dubai live and breath off each other. EK is an extension of this city. EK fired the Captain and F/O last year of the Melbourne accident and fired the Training Captain and F/O of another flight, Manchester, a short while later.

The Melbourne crew was out of this country within two weeks after the accident. They were threatened with jail time for destroying "Government of UAE Property". Or if they actually "resigned", then the company, and the UAE authorities would let them go. They had NO CHOICE. BLACKMAILED. Why else would they resign? Why else would they also sign a letter in confidence NOT TO DISCUSS THE MATTER? FEAR...that's why.

The Manchester crew... On short final were given clearance to land on the parallel runway, accepted it, then went around on short final. During the G/A the Training Captain realized he was turning the wrong way and advised ATC. No problem, uneventful return and landing. Captain decides to write ASR, and this Fuc.king Company fires both of them based on the ASR!!! On a training flight!!

..AND.. At this very moment there is an F/O who has been grounded for about two months now because he embarressed a very senior TRE who blatantly, willfully broke a hard company SOP. And as such, the F/O wrote an ASR on it!! Obviously a mistake on his part. Can you see a trend here?



These stories are the tip of the iceberg in this place.

Emirates admittedly sells a pretty, sweet smelling product. But, having lived here for six years (and it looks like I might soon be getting out) I have zero respect and will support this place no longer.

I agree... No to Emirates in Canada..

Jinglie'd

[Skylion]

This thread seems to have gone way off track and become a political rant about comparative social and political systems and those can be debated for ever in total disregard to the history and future needs of the countries concerned. The Gulf has given crews from all over the world tremendous opportunities and opportunities they could not have expected in their home countries, especially those dominated by legacy carriers. If having got there they find they don't like it-and the lifestyle while great for some is not for others,- no problem,- just leave.
As far as aviation is concerned the fact is that Canada, with its geographical position and its old fashioned restrictive bilateral agreements which limit airline frequencies and capacity is an international backwater of little interest to most carriers. A look at an atlas will reveal that the Gulf on the other hand is probably the best located place in the world to base an airline aiming to provide one-stop flights from almost any part of the globe to any other. (Ok, Ok, not from North to South America or American continent- transpacific). The new carriers have taken the opportunities well and provide levels of service up there with the Far Eastern airlines, and way above most of the Europeans and even further ahead of the legacy American operators. Air Canada doesn't even begin to compete in this respect.Let the customers choose.

[Saltaire]

What you say is mainly true jingled, but what can you do to change it? Makes you and nolimit feel better to vent, we get that. It's not fair and just, the place is heartless, draconian etc. I, for one agree, but your hatred for your own airline is so great, you would rather have it not expand so you and many others from Cad can fly home and enjoy other layover benefits? Kinda like hearing from a Spaniard, saying no to Madrid ! ya right. I for one would love to see EK expand into Canada. Take me home....let the consumer decide and you know the outcome, EK would dominate.

[tbaylx]

EK would dominate at the expense of candian jobs here in Canada making more of us have to go over there to work in the cesspool...no thanks.

[Skylion]

Why would EK dominate if Air Canada offers better service??

[Saltaire]

It would create jobs and maybe AC can lift it's game instead of sitting on it's #ss and taking another union break. It's called competition and free skies. Cesspool, like Toronto?

[Married a Canadian]

EK would dominate at the expense of candian jobs here in Canada

Is ANYONE going to explain this statement at all on either of the two threads that is running on this topic (MIddle east forum a while back).

Why is one airline going to take away Canadian jobs?

Passengers maybe?...but not jobs.

If you are saying the Emirates flying into Canada on whatever frequency they require is going to put Air Canada under...and THAT is why jobs will be lost...then you are delusional.

I agree with Skylion. Leave the demographics and social aspects out of this debate. They serve no purpose...and don't address the business issue.
EK vs Air Canada or EK vs Canada...whichever way you look at it.

1 How will regular service by EK affect Canadian jobs in an adverse way..ie how will jobs be LOST
2 How " " " " be bad for the Canadian economy
3 How is increased competition bad for Air Canada when the free market is all about competition (and if you want to be all democratic you have to uphold to the free market...who cares if EK dosen't....no one cares about the other countries round the world that have similar problems to the middle east....at least I get that gist from looking at the "Made in ****" tags on my goods bought in this wonderful democracy....and also my motherland)

Answer that in an economic/business sense.

The "Middle east sucks and EK is crooked" line grows fairly tiresome after a while when it dosen't seem to make a tuppence worth of difference in the world of international business.

[Wxgeek]

1 How will regular service by EK affect Canadian jobs in an adverse way..ie how will jobs be LOST

If EK poaches transatlantic/transpacific traffic from Canadian carriers. (For ex: YYC/YVR/YYZ-FRA/LHR-India) (another ex:YVR-YSSY) frequencies will decrease if loads lighten up. Less frequency = less good paying Canadian pilot jobs. Those good paying pilot jobs will be replaced by contract ramp jobs from EK. No thanks.

2 How " " " " be bad for the Canadian economy

Read answer 1. If 1 set of pilots get laid off that is $300k/year of front end crew wages that disappear. These two pilots probably spend 90%+ of their wages in Canada in taxes and personal spending each year. And this is replaced by a pair of ramp jobs at $40K each? This is good somehow? For who? How does this benefit Canada? I'd rather keep the good paying jobs in Canada thanks very much.

3 How is increased competition bad for Air Canada when the free market is all about competition

If there is a mutual benefit for the competition and a level field competition is fine. What benefit will Canadian carriers get flying passengers THRU Dubai? Because that is what we are really talking about. Only a small fraction of Canada-Dubai traffic stop in Dubai. A majority connects onwards. We both know that but only one of us is saying it. As it stands now the India traffic connects thru Europe. Not ideal but at least there is an opportunity for expansion should a Canadian carrier decide to fly into India and an Indian carrier into Canada. The same opportunity does not exist for a Canadian carrier flying into Dubai. The destination traffic from Canada to Dubai too light to warrant starting a route. EK gets to poach Canada-Europe-India traffic and Canadian carrier get exactly what benefit? I see none.

The "Why would EK dominate if Air Canada offers better service??" argument

People are very price concious, so whoever offers an acceptable product at the best price will probably get the business. EK can undercut a Canadian carrier whenever it wants. AC's profits are hit and miss, EKs are consistently good. EK has access to capital AC can only dream of. Although I don't think EK would not do as well with the same tax load as AC but thats another story. AC is outgunned and I think the Canadian Government knows this. It would be easy for EK to dominate based on their better economic situation. The Canadian government really doesn't want to reduce the tax load on Canadian carriers so it must offer them some protection from poachers like EK. There just isn't enough economic benefit flowing to Canada to allow EK anything more IMO

[tbaylx]

That about sums it up...the bottom line is EK does not compete with AC on a level playing field. EK can hire most of it's employees for dirt cheap wages, no unions or labor laws to worry about and Dubai charges no landing fees.

Saltaire if you are seriously comparing Toronto to Dubai then you have been spending too much time in the sun. There aren't any canadians that i know over there that wouldn't give their left nut to be based in YYZ over DXB any day. Have you actually lived in either of those two cities past the honeymoon period?

If EK had to abide by the same employment standards that AC does then by all means lets open it up and have them compete. But since that isn't going to happen then no to EK. Air Canada "sitting on it's union ass" is a hell of a lot better alternative than employing people in canada under UAE labor standards. There is a lot of subcontinent traffic flowing through LHR on AC that would soon be on EK if canadian skies were to open up and that would move aviation jobs overseas. End of story.

[Canoli Driver]

Good debate this one...

Saltair, how is one's defence of ones territory by another due to unfair advantage "on the edge"? I rather think its quite normal and prevalent in this world.

Of course we all advocate "open flying" and "free trade" in the world, but those tenants of unilateral trade are never intended to allow another country unbridaled access to another market. Rather, its intended for each country access to anothers market on a fair and equitable basis. Its simply a negotiated unilateral business deal that benefits both sides. Why would anyone allow a neighbor access to their house if it meant you yourself would eventually be kicked out?

You and everyone knows this. So your argument is really actually quite empty.

Allow me to open your mind a bit. Whats stopping China with its trillions of dollars and huge appetite for business, from coming into North America and buying up blue chip companies? Why would they want too in the first place? Why wouldn't they want to come to the UAE and buy up Emirates Airlines? Hmm... food for though eh?

Think about it... you may figure the world out....

Its not as simple as "let the market decide".

First, some markets need a measure of protection, and second some countries need to be limited in their growth due to their subsidized nature.

These are basics my friend. Time to open your mind to reality.

[Wxgeek]

The post further up from "jinglied" is for me the most worrying as a pilot.

If pilots are indeed being disciplined for writing ASRs at Emirates it won't take long for their safety culture (if it even exists) to collapse. I can tell you that at the Canadian airline I work for management has committed in writing that there is no jeopardy for disclosing an unsafe procedure and operation via an ASR or any other communication. I haven't seen any evidence that they are lying nor do I think this policy is unique for a major Canadian operator.

This doesn't mean mistakes aren't made, but the information regarding a safety issue certainly isn't suppressed nor are pilots punished for raising safety concerns.

If punishing pilots for raising safety concerns is how Emirates operates it's a major problem for me as another pilot or as a potential Emirates passenger.

[GMC1500]

High paying Canadian flight deck jobs?? EK would compete only on the long haul wide body market, and only on a few routes. IF it were necessary for AC to shed a few European flts, those resources could be deployed elsewhere in the existing network, or maybe they could exploit some new markets. This sounds like the chicken little argument.

I just don't get the protectionist argument. Look to the other western countries EK flies to: UK, Australia, USA, Germany, France, Netherlands, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, and more. Have their aviation markets, legacy carriers been destroyed? Their entire national economies? I don't think so, and although many of them struggle, you can't put it down to EKs presence. Most of them have struggled long before EKs arrival.

And what's with the term "poaching ACs customers". Does AC own these passengers? I thought it was a free country?

As for Dubai vs YYZ, I for one have lived in both. Nearly went broke living in YYZ, or should I say in the outskirts because almost no pilots can afford to live in Toronto proper. My last job was YYZ based, and of the 200 or so capts I flew with, maybe 2 lived in Toronto, the rest between 1 and 2 hrs drive away, or commuters from across the country. Hey its a free country (well, that's the crux of this debate, isn't it?) if you want to spend that many hours in your car on the 400 series highways and give half your earnings to the govt, fill your boots. I for one would never want to be based in YYZ, so speak for yourself.

Speaking of level playing fields, why is it fair that AC must have a french speaking FA on every flight while WJ doesn't, and they don't have unions to deal with, and lower corporate taxes in AB. No fair, no fair, limit their slots at Pearson!!
EK does have labour laws to deal with everywhere it employs people, including Dubai, and it pays landing fees everywhere, including Dubai. Point is no two airlines are on level playing fields. Instead of deriding one who is doing better than yours, why not try to focus on improving your own situation?

And nolimit, I do live here, wtf do you think? And I'm pretty sure our Canadian expat colleagues would love to see more frequency, sounds like you could use some more time at home for one. So what is the point of your argument then? Canada holds EKs slots hostage until Canada can force a change of govt in UAE? Are you serious??

[six7driver]

Excellent post GMC1500...lets hear it for reason!...

[Wxgeek]

Here is an example of EK pricing that exists today. Lowest fare selected on both flights:

Toronto - Sydney, Australia airfare (June 2010) comparison:
EK airfare $2038.00 taxes $141.32 total $2179.32

total distance flown: 14380 nm via DXB

AC airfare $2108.50 taxes $420.82 total $2529.32

total distance flown: 9841 nm via YVR

Several things could be be happening:
1) EKs operation is more efficient because of lower fuel costs+ lower fuel taxes/lower wage rates/lower total corporate taxes paid. I'm assuming fuel burn/hour per seat are about the same for both airlines.
2) EK is able to offer fares below cost because of their stronger economic position and they are more interested in grabbing market share than making money on this seat.

How can they offer a fare $360 cheaper on a route that is 46% longer?

This is a glaring example of why Canada doesn't need EK poaching in Canada. The tax load is too high for Canada's airlines to compete against a better financed EK. There has to be upside for both parties in any agreement and in EKs case there isn't any upside for Canadian carriers.

GMC1500 admits AC frequencies across the Atlantic may decrease but says AC can find business elsewhere on other routes. How very generous of EK to muscle in and tell Canadian carriers to look elsewhere for profit. How about EK just quit Canada and go elsewhere for their profits?

Pilot job prospects and wages in Canada won't increase if Canada's airlines are made weaker by poachers like EK.

[KingAir]

Excellent post WxGeek...let's hear it for better reasoning!



It seems that all of you that want better access for EK are only after it for selfish reasons. If you really want YYZ layovers, why not move back and stay more than a night at a time?


Stay away EK!

[six7driver]

Reason defined by the dictionary

fact(s) that logically justifies some premise or conclusion

FACTS

You King Air, Wxgeek, and your ilk engage instead in polemic rants, and opinion justified by speculation...and you know what they say about opinions King stooge? they're like a$$holes, everyone's got one.

Meet King Air, unselfish moral authority and his side kick and Air Canada employee Wxgeek, they, like Air Canada's CEO and Union leaders, know what's best for Canada!!

YES TO EMIRATES!...is what our neighbors to the south are saying...and smiling from ear to ear when all the jobs that could have been going to Canadians will instead be theirs.

[GMC1500]

It seems that all of you that want better access for EK are only after it for selfish reasons. If you really want YYZ layovers, why not move back and stay more than a night at a time?

For myself I think I made it pretty clear, because I was going broke after working ten years as a pilot in Canada!! I'm sure most posters are familiar with the game, move your career forward, move your wages backward. Plus the bottom line is that its an underserved route. I'd be thrilled if AC wanted to start up service YYZ/DXB. Any predictions about when that's going to happen?

2) EK is able to offer fares below cost because of their stronger economic position and they are more interested in grabbing market share than making money on this seat.

If this were true, then how did EK make such nice fat profits last year while AC lost how much? Again? While charging more money to fly a shorter route??

There has to be upside for both parties in any agreement and in EKs case there isn't any upside for Canadian carriers.

Since when has it been up to AC as to who gets to provide service to Canadian citizens or tourists?? I guess that's why you're so comfortable using the term "poaching", implying that all of these passengers belong to AC as a god given right.

Pilot job prospects and wages in Canada won't increase if Canada's airlines are made weaker by poachers like EK.

Ok, let's assume EK keeps their ASMs stable in Canada for the next ten years, then you can come on here and tell us how all of Canadian pilots wages and opportunities are so much better. Unbelievable. Always pointing to the bogeyman from the outside instead of acknowledging the inherent problems in the Canadian market and addressing them.
...what's that I hear? whistling past the graveyard?...

[tbaylx]

GMC....

There are no labour laws protecting expats in Dubai...go ahead and try taking EK to court over something and let me know how that works out for you. EK also does not pay landing fees in DXB..DXB doesn't charge landing fees.

If EK wants access to canadian markets it needs to be on fair terms to canadian carriers.

EK can make a nice fat profit on the back of its employees that are paid peanuts. FD might make more than canadian pilots and get other benefits you wouldn't see in canada, but go ahead and compare ground staff, ticketing etc.