How is it on BA Mixed Fleet, are you enjoying it?
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Elldee, the other thing that you probably need to take in to account is that all of us tend to only talk to those that we know. I could walk past a group of WW crew and not really even notice them too because I would not likely know them. So when you are new in BA it does and always has seemed quite a daunting environment.
Eurofleet is about the most friendly group because we know each other a little bit more but even now after 11 years I can do a briefing and not have flown with any of my crew before. When I was on WW I often went into briefings and did not know one of the fifteen crew and that was also after 11 years on that fleet.
M/F will become very friendly because it is relatively small at the momment which will be nice for you.
Eurofleet is about the most friendly group because we know each other a little bit more but even now after 11 years I can do a briefing and not have flown with any of my crew before. When I was on WW I often went into briefings and did not know one of the fifteen crew and that was also after 11 years on that fleet.
M/F will become very friendly because it is relatively small at the momment which will be nice for you.
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Hi Betty girl, yes I do fly and have done for over 15 years. Times have changed dramatically during that period. Layovers have become shorter and shorter, to the present day where most, but not all, are min rest bullets. 16 hour duty days are the norm and the only rest area is a barbox in the back galley. The only agreement that we have is that we will not do a bullet east followed by a bullet west, but LH into SH and vica-versa is absolutely standard.( The beauty of being rated on 3 types.) Yes I also work for a well known UK airline and our new joiners can only get temp. contracts and are paid considerably less than 18K. Welcome to the real world of 2011. Regards.
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Wow guys - those roster sure are fun packed aren't they?? Verging on brutal perhaps!!
I have to say all credit to you guys for taking the bull by the horns and embracing the change. I can only echo what others have said - with the previous WW agreement, WW crew would be going apoplectic over such a run of trips.
I have nasty feeling that despite your positive approach, the powers that be in scheduling and crew management are going be pretty obstinate about any flexing of rosters to allow people proper rest. With Willie in the driving seat, its all about max utilisation for min cost. Your only recourse would be crew fatigue.
I vaguely recall Mid Fleet rostering, but it was markedly more in favour of the crew in comparison.
Oh and ignore those crew who give you the cold shoulder - crew by definition (some not all) can be incredibly fickle. Just keep on smiling!
I have to say all credit to you guys for taking the bull by the horns and embracing the change. I can only echo what others have said - with the previous WW agreement, WW crew would be going apoplectic over such a run of trips.
I have nasty feeling that despite your positive approach, the powers that be in scheduling and crew management are going be pretty obstinate about any flexing of rosters to allow people proper rest. With Willie in the driving seat, its all about max utilisation for min cost. Your only recourse would be crew fatigue.
I vaguely recall Mid Fleet rostering, but it was markedly more in favour of the crew in comparison.
Oh and ignore those crew who give you the cold shoulder - crew by definition (some not all) can be incredibly fickle. Just keep on smiling!
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Windy,
Just pondering over your post no.43.
Are you sure you normally work 16 hour duty days!!
The absolute legal limit for UK cabin crew is 15 hours and sometimes less depending on your start time and number of sectors (unless a bunk or captains discretion is used) so for you to suggest that 16 hours is the norm in your airline with nothing but a bar box to sit on seems maybe a little bit of an exaggeration, maybe! I would hate to think that your well known uk airline uses captains discretion on such a regular basis. Poor you.
I think it is really important to be truly factual about what you write because lots of people that don't fly read these posts and tend to believe everything they read.
Just pondering over your post no.43.
Are you sure you normally work 16 hour duty days!!
The absolute legal limit for UK cabin crew is 15 hours and sometimes less depending on your start time and number of sectors (unless a bunk or captains discretion is used) so for you to suggest that 16 hours is the norm in your airline with nothing but a bar box to sit on seems maybe a little bit of an exaggeration, maybe! I would hate to think that your well known uk airline uses captains discretion on such a regular basis. Poor you.
I think it is really important to be truly factual about what you write because lots of people that don't fly read these posts and tend to believe everything they read.
Last edited by Betty girl; 6th Jan 2011 at 13:07.
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Oh yes, I can totally appreciate what you are saying.
I dont expect randoms to come and start a conversation with me in Costa. I just mean little things like smiles being exchanged in the queue...then the hat box is spotted and its wiped pretty quickly... but thats ok, I understand there are mixed feelings for mixed fleet and thats fine.
Most flights I have had so far, I have known at least one crew member which is nice. Makes it less daunting when you are new to flying having a familiar face in the breifing room! I was in the hold pool for Euro Fleet - so will be bidding for SH flights!!
Positive approach is fine for this month, like I said I have put into perspective my good fortune in having the chrismas period off and these days as well. If Februarys roster is similar, I will endeavor to get it rectified.
Thanks to you all for your advise and support!
I dont expect randoms to come and start a conversation with me in Costa. I just mean little things like smiles being exchanged in the queue...then the hat box is spotted and its wiped pretty quickly... but thats ok, I understand there are mixed feelings for mixed fleet and thats fine.
Most flights I have had so far, I have known at least one crew member which is nice. Makes it less daunting when you are new to flying having a familiar face in the breifing room! I was in the hold pool for Euro Fleet - so will be bidding for SH flights!!
Positive approach is fine for this month, like I said I have put into perspective my good fortune in having the chrismas period off and these days as well. If Februarys roster is similar, I will endeavor to get it rectified.
Thanks to you all for your advise and support!
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Betty Girl,
Many non legacy UK airlines do day return trips to places like Tenerife, Egypt, Cyprus and Israel that involve over 8-9 hours flying plus the turnround. I don't see this as being much different to a one way to Kenya. At least in Nairobi you get a nice hotel and a beer by the pool with the crew rather than home to the kids to do it all again the next day.
The guys and girls we have work very hard and are constantly in the cabin doing services as they need to hit their selling targets to supplement their low basic wage.
This is the reality with many carriers.
Regards
Many non legacy UK airlines do day return trips to places like Tenerife, Egypt, Cyprus and Israel that involve over 8-9 hours flying plus the turnround. I don't see this as being much different to a one way to Kenya. At least in Nairobi you get a nice hotel and a beer by the pool with the crew rather than home to the kids to do it all again the next day.
The guys and girls we have work very hard and are constantly in the cabin doing services as they need to hit their selling targets to supplement their low basic wage.
This is the reality with many carriers.
Regards
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elledee,
So sad, that.
You shouldn't have to but I would keep the hat box in my cabin bag and then no one would know. Totally outrageous though that people are so fickle. They are all just so wound up about all these changes and can't see the wood for the trees.
Anyway we both now, know each others names so we will be able to say hello to each other.
Thanks for all the interesting info you have provided it's good to know the facts and not just rumours.
So sad, that.
You shouldn't have to but I would keep the hat box in my cabin bag and then no one would know. Totally outrageous though that people are so fickle. They are all just so wound up about all these changes and can't see the wood for the trees.
Anyway we both now, know each others names so we will be able to say hello to each other.
Thanks for all the interesting info you have provided it's good to know the facts and not just rumours.
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Just because I work for BA dose not mean that I have not worked for a charter airline in the past and done long duty days such as Tenerife etc.
At BA we also do Athens and back, Istanbul and back, Moscow and back, and Tel Avive and back has been known in the past. That does not however mean that it is the norm to do 16 hour duty days as suggested by Windy for any uk airline.
I think we are comparing apples and pears here.
I know you all work very hard and I think you will find that quite often BA crew do too, contrary to common belief here.
Clamouring for everyone to work to the lowest common denominator seems a bit strange to me but if it makes you all feel better, please feel free.
At BA we also do Athens and back, Istanbul and back, Moscow and back, and Tel Avive and back has been known in the past. That does not however mean that it is the norm to do 16 hour duty days as suggested by Windy for any uk airline.
I think we are comparing apples and pears here.
I know you all work very hard and I think you will find that quite often BA crew do too, contrary to common belief here.
Clamouring for everyone to work to the lowest common denominator seems a bit strange to me but if it makes you all feel better, please feel free.
Last edited by Betty girl; 6th Jan 2011 at 13:12.
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Well Betty, I concede that the use of the word, normal, might have been slightly incorrect. Maybe I should have used the words, not unusual. I really wish your 15 hour max duty period was correct though! Try this, perfectly legal from CAA's point of view,
6 hours of "free" standby at home followed by SSH and back to different base and then 5 hour coach ride. Total duty (not FTL) of 25 hours!! However to be fair, that would be exceptional, thank god. But also to be honest, it takes place on a regular basis without the preceeding standby, so only 19 hours then!
Barbox only applicable to the middle 13 hours of course!
Many years ago our agreements were much closer to yours, but unfortunately times have changed and to stay in business we have had to change too.
I would say the difference between MF and our company is that MF get 2K more plus a more "permanentish" contract. I suspect that like us however, when the economy improves in the UK, BA will struggle to keep hold of the good ones unless they improve the Ts and Cs.
6 hours of "free" standby at home followed by SSH and back to different base and then 5 hour coach ride. Total duty (not FTL) of 25 hours!! However to be fair, that would be exceptional, thank god. But also to be honest, it takes place on a regular basis without the preceeding standby, so only 19 hours then!
Barbox only applicable to the middle 13 hours of course!
Many years ago our agreements were much closer to yours, but unfortunately times have changed and to stay in business we have had to change too.
I would say the difference between MF and our company is that MF get 2K more plus a more "permanentish" contract. I suspect that like us however, when the economy improves in the UK, BA will struggle to keep hold of the good ones unless they improve the Ts and Cs.
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elledee
how are those people who commute from up north coping with rosters like that.With your roster for this month you have to come in ten times in three weeks.Such a hard work agenda would surely make commuting a non starter?
how are those people who commute from up north coping with rosters like that.With your roster for this month you have to come in ten times in three weeks.Such a hard work agenda would surely make commuting a non starter?
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Windy, the basic for M/F is £11,000 and they have to live close to Heathrow to boot.
Then on top of that they get 2.40 per hour flight pay, no other allowances or O/T at all.
18K is what BA say they will achieve and this includes the flight pay of 2.40 which, some of which, they will need to spend on food and drink etc. while away especially in places like Hanenda(Tokyo).
It's early days as yet but so far I have not met one M/F crew member that has taken home more that £1000.
Hope that helps clarify things for you.
The CAA scheme which all airlines in the UK use (unless they have agreed something more restrictive as their scheme with the CAA) can be seen in your manual. You will find I am sure a page giving you the maximum duty hours depending on the start time and no of sectors that you can operate without captains discretion or the use of a bunk. I am sure if you look, 15 hours is the largest number you will see. Positioning after is a separate matter and the same chapter in your manual will also tell you about that.
Hope that helps.
Then on top of that they get 2.40 per hour flight pay, no other allowances or O/T at all.
18K is what BA say they will achieve and this includes the flight pay of 2.40 which, some of which, they will need to spend on food and drink etc. while away especially in places like Hanenda(Tokyo).
It's early days as yet but so far I have not met one M/F crew member that has taken home more that £1000.
Hope that helps clarify things for you.
The CAA scheme which all airlines in the UK use (unless they have agreed something more restrictive as their scheme with the CAA) can be seen in your manual. You will find I am sure a page giving you the maximum duty hours depending on the start time and no of sectors that you can operate without captains discretion or the use of a bunk. I am sure if you look, 15 hours is the largest number you will see. Positioning after is a separate matter and the same chapter in your manual will also tell you about that.
Hope that helps.
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BG,
I really wasn't trying to comment on how hard those at BA work (You will note that I didn't mention BA at all) but on that small amount of huffing and puffing about having to work the day after coming back from NBO and enquiring how it was different to working any other long flying day followed by another.
NBO is only 3 hours ahead of the UK and at least you have the benefits of a nice hotel.
Regards
I really wasn't trying to comment on how hard those at BA work (You will note that I didn't mention BA at all) but on that small amount of huffing and puffing about having to work the day after coming back from NBO and enquiring how it was different to working any other long flying day followed by another.
NBO is only 3 hours ahead of the UK and at least you have the benefits of a nice hotel.
Regards
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binsleepen
Fair enough, but if that is the way Mixed Fleet is going (and based on discussions with MF managers, I doubt it), then I would vote with my feet and leave.
I didn't join BA to fly for 5+ hours, see a bit of foreign tarmac then fly straight back whilst desperately trying to sell tobacco and booze between meals. To me, there's no point - you could do the same on a train ... part of the appeal of BA is the ability to work in different cabins, promotion outside of cabin services and - yes - the opportunity to visit foreign countries.
There is no appeal whastoever in doing "bullets" for me ...
Fair enough, but if that is the way Mixed Fleet is going (and based on discussions with MF managers, I doubt it), then I would vote with my feet and leave.
I didn't join BA to fly for 5+ hours, see a bit of foreign tarmac then fly straight back whilst desperately trying to sell tobacco and booze between meals. To me, there's no point - you could do the same on a train ... part of the appeal of BA is the ability to work in different cabins, promotion outside of cabin services and - yes - the opportunity to visit foreign countries.
There is no appeal whastoever in doing "bullets" for me ...
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Sorry Binsleepin,
The flight out is a day flight, followed by a night flight home after being up all day, followed by another s/h day duty, which will come probably after a bad nights sleep due to the early morning nap after the NBO return sector..
I am sure it is achievable but couple that with Las Vegas with 1 day off, then Hanenda the opposite direction and I think that these crew will feel shattered.
Just my opinion and at no time have I ever said that I don't think other airlines work hard because as an industry I think we all work harder than the general public realise.
The flight out is a day flight, followed by a night flight home after being up all day, followed by another s/h day duty, which will come probably after a bad nights sleep due to the early morning nap after the NBO return sector..
I am sure it is achievable but couple that with Las Vegas with 1 day off, then Hanenda the opposite direction and I think that these crew will feel shattered.
Just my opinion and at no time have I ever said that I don't think other airlines work hard because as an industry I think we all work harder than the general public realise.
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Hey Betty, I'm on your side! I don't think it is sustainable in the future as I said. We have had many people apply to MF from our company, some successful, some not. However the reason they are interested is that the money, conditions and perceived job security is better than they have now. Only time will tell.
By the way have you heard of level 2 dispensation from the CAA? From my manual in front of me,this allows the company to add another 30 to max flight duty time. Also duty period finishes at chocks on time, so 1 hour must always be added to duty period. Therefore max duty period can be 16 hours 30 minutes before any positioning.
By the way have you heard of level 2 dispensation from the CAA? From my manual in front of me,this allows the company to add another 30 to max flight duty time. Also duty period finishes at chocks on time, so 1 hour must always be added to duty period. Therefore max duty period can be 16 hours 30 minutes before any positioning.
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tomkins
In all honesty I cant answer that. I know people who DO commute from the north and far south who are managing.
I am fortunate as I live in Buckinghamshire, 20 mintues away!
In all honesty I cant answer that. I know people who DO commute from the north and far south who are managing.
I am fortunate as I live in Buckinghamshire, 20 mintues away!
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Windy,
I think the duty includes the clear of 30 mins but who really cares about all this detail, just thought your original post sounded a bit strange but I understand what you meant.
Yes, I think I know what airline you work for because I have heard quite a few are joining BA Mixed Fleet.
Hope they all enjoy it.
Safe flying. BG.
I think the duty includes the clear of 30 mins but who really cares about all this detail, just thought your original post sounded a bit strange but I understand what you meant.
Yes, I think I know what airline you work for because I have heard quite a few are joining BA Mixed Fleet.
Hope they all enjoy it.
Safe flying. BG.
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Regarding Mixed Fleet pay for non-CSMs (i.e. cabin crew), I guess everyone has a slightly different view on what constitutes reasonable take-home pay after all deductions.
Perhaps £1,000 per month is not unreasonable. This is just my personal situation, but being single and renting about 30 minutes' drive from LHR, £1,000 leaves me with almost nothing left to live on after bill payments. I don't class myself as a big spender at all ... I tend to buy my toiletries and clothes from cheap shops in the US as thats all I can afford at the moment. I have no mortgage and I borrow my father's car to get to work (I pay bills on the car as he does not currently use it.)
Hopefully with a promotion to CSM, things will become much better as the payrise is significant and puts me on a much more realistic footing, financially.
However, I was led to believe that Mixed Fleet pay would be set at market rate + 10%. I'm not sure what BA has used as the market rate, or what additional payments or commission thay have included in this calculation, but I'm still not sure that that is what £1,000 represents. I know others at places like easyJet and Thomas Cook that currently take home several hundred pounds more than I do.
Having said that, I only have the month of November to go by, and I'm hopeful that my take-home next month might be better; other than the pay which does worry me, and the rostering I have to say I really enjoy flying on Mixed Fleet.
Perhaps £1,000 per month is not unreasonable. This is just my personal situation, but being single and renting about 30 minutes' drive from LHR, £1,000 leaves me with almost nothing left to live on after bill payments. I don't class myself as a big spender at all ... I tend to buy my toiletries and clothes from cheap shops in the US as thats all I can afford at the moment. I have no mortgage and I borrow my father's car to get to work (I pay bills on the car as he does not currently use it.)
Hopefully with a promotion to CSM, things will become much better as the payrise is significant and puts me on a much more realistic footing, financially.
However, I was led to believe that Mixed Fleet pay would be set at market rate + 10%. I'm not sure what BA has used as the market rate, or what additional payments or commission thay have included in this calculation, but I'm still not sure that that is what £1,000 represents. I know others at places like easyJet and Thomas Cook that currently take home several hundred pounds more than I do.
Having said that, I only have the month of November to go by, and I'm hopeful that my take-home next month might be better; other than the pay which does worry me, and the rostering I have to say I really enjoy flying on Mixed Fleet.