BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)

[Right Engine]

Ermm,

I'm not a fan of your Duty Operational Managers.

They are meddling. They do not understand the operation, just the 'agreement'.

They seem to think they should enforce that agreement despite the fact that often the whole crew want to work outside it which would ultimately work to the company's (and customer's) advantage (ie. get home in time for Christmas instead of waiting 2 days for the archaic MBT after a diversion rule)

They do not speak to Captains without sneering.

They are superfluous to the operational needs of the company and are just as bad as BASSA IMHO.

Tell me as I'm keen not to cause offence by this belief, but why do you think "the operation would fall apart without them", when for me, on the odd occasion that I am 'told' by crew what the DOM's have instructed them, it usually tends to wreck the operation (or cause more problems than solutions!)

[Betty girl]

My mistake, I take it all back, I am shocked that you were actually referring to the Doms.

Like Ottergirl I find that they do an important and hard job, generally very well.

I am amazed that you think they would have the power to disregard any agreement however ridiculous it might be to you.

I am not keen on the disruption agreement but I don't think any manager can choose which agreements to follow and which to disregard at a whim.

Hopefully the disruption agreement will be a thing of the past soon.

[From Tunbridge Wells]

Right Engine

They are superfluous to the operational needs of the company and are just as bad as BASSA IMHO

When you've had a family member have a serious accident when you're miles away from home, you realise that DOMs are worth their weight in gold.
Can we please stop bashing other employees/deptartments?

[Betty girl]

Right Engine,

Did you have trouble getting home for Christmas due to a diversion because I thought all the diverted flights came back on 20th or 21st and that the delay was because of the airport being closed to arriving flights on the 19th.

Of course it does make for a good story that the Doms and cabin crew ruined Christmas but was it actually your experience or is this just something that might have happened?

[ottergirl]

Right Engine

What you are overlooking here is that the DOM's did not write the agreement, your employer British Airways did that! BA then employed the DOM's to translate it and to ensure that everybody sticks to it which they do admirably. They do not 'meddle', they only become involved if approached by the Cabin crew. As a SCCM I can tell you that I would have had a harder job managing crew issues downroute without their support.

Knowing many of them personally I doubt they would sneer at a Captain, (they are far too professional); it may feel that way if they are refusing to allow you to break the rules that BA wrote yet you are insisting that they should make an exception for you because you're so important. Nothing personal; they are just doing the job they are employed to do - same as you!

As for their keeping the operation from falling apart, you only have to stand in their office space and listen to the wide range of crew issues they deal with 24/7 365 to appreciate IFCE would be chaos without them. From dealing with hospitalised crew down-route, repatriating the bereaved, locating AWOL crew, advising on lost passports/ID's, liaising between Ops control and stranded crew, chasing lost transport, delaying report times to keep the crew in hours, replacing sick crew, off-loading crew for a whole plethora of reasons, tracking down lost aircraft, and yes, sometimes interpreting the British Airways cabin crew agreement for off-schedule crew!

So, respect to them for doing a difficult job so well and I think nearly every cabin crew member will agree that they are the one bright spot in our department.

[dolly bird]

In support of DOMS

Right Engine

As a CSD I have had nothing but support and help from the DOMS over the years. Two examples come to mind, At a hospital in a third world country at 02.30am with one of my crew who had suffered a terrible accident and Global Lifeline told me to call back in 20mins as the person I was dealing with was on his break and the hospital would do NOTHING unless payment was forthcoming! When one of my relatives died and I needed to get home and most recently during the last strike when they were trying to acomodate everyone (including two volunteers that insisted on being on the same flight -the one I was operating)

I believe they are the unsung heroes of IFCE.

[PC767]

Right engine.

Whilst agreeing with the sentiment, nutty unions and bad management, you wrote;

As individuals you have the opportunity to use your ballot wisely and show your 'nutty' superiors a path to a more enjoyable work place.

For the sake of bias could I add, or show the bad managers a path to a more enjoyable work place.

Flaps 40 produced a very well worked piece of writting which summed up the situation for the majority of people involved in this dispute, many agreed with the sentiments, but then quickly returned to form.

[PC767]

Yellow Pen, the problem with the deal which Woodley negotiated with Walsh was that it was not negotiated with the very people it affected. With hindsight Woodley should not have been so quick to shake hands, (but then retirement and the opportunity of ennoblement was at stake), on the deal but should have reported back first. This involves my employment and earnings, I believe I have a small say in what to accept and what not accept.

Forgetting the over-confident argument, (because these days it is), 'it will never happen to me because...' would you be accepting of a third party to make your financial arrangements, and bind you to them. Would you be happy for an estate agent to accept a lower price for the sale of your assets with consultation. Woodley was/is my agent and my assests in this case are my contract and benefits of employment.

The deal itself wasn't bad, and overall was most probably the best we could accept, but the small print, as ever was flawed. Walsh expected cabin crew to relinquish some fundamental rights, such as the right to take my employer to court over matters of legal abuse. He also wanted dictatorial rights to remove my earnings and benefits at will, which combined with my loss of rights to legally challenge him/BA amounted to a positively Victorian way of managing business. For better or worse we have evolved the managment of business and workers rights in western society. This includes the rights you enjoy, but may feel you will never need to call upon.

If this dispute has now become centred upon the right to staff travel, as many will claim, then it could be solved at the stroke of a pen/push off a button. I have my staff travel - I didn't strike, and I see no need to continue along this brands self-destructive path if the instant restoration of full staff travel will alter the ballot results and bring matters to a halt. My opinion is that Walsh may have also missed that boat, the arguments have moved on.

I am a moderate person and I canvass many opinions. My view from many open minded conversations is that resolve many actually be growing and apathy declining in favour of the unions. And with a proportion of moderates leaving Bassa, returning results and actions may actually be stronger. It strikes me that Walsh and Francis should actually encourage moderates to remain with the unions to at least have an influential vote on the direction of events, and ultimately water down actions and opinions.

I am no supporter of Walsh and his regime, despite not striking. The quote Flaps 40 reproduced was a perfect appraisal of the current malaise at BA. I've read many times that this business is about the numbers, but it shouldn't be. It is about people, we are a people business. KPMG is about numbers, and while we are at it BAA is about airports not bloody shopping malls. The balance has all gone.

[oh-oh]

This involves my employment and earnings, I believe I have a small say in what to accept and what not accept.

Yet throughout this whole debacle you have never had a chance to have a proper vote on any of the offers made by the Company!

[Colonel White]

PC767

you abdicated any right to negotiate with your employer when you joined a group of workers that operate on collective bargaining. That means that your pay and conditions are set by whatever that group is able to agree with management. In a collective bargaining deal there are those staff who benefit, because in an open market situation they would never get as good a deal, and there are those who are hamstrung becuase the effort and value of their contribution is higher. Therein lies the major issue with collective bargaining - it robs the incentive to put in a greater effort, there's no point in busting a gut if it won't be reflected in the way that the company treats you.

If the dispute is abouit staff travel, then it is going to run and run. For well over 20 years staff travel has been a non-contractual benefit. I have somewhere my letter of joining which states that very plainly. The intranet pages have it written in large letters. The Staff employment guide has it in even bigger letters. Anyone who believes that it is not something that the company can remove for any reason, plainly has not read the small print. That is their fault. As far as restoration of benefits goes, when it was originally announced, the sttement made was that those who went on strike would lose staff travel completely, never to return.Some cabin crew didn't listen or chose to believe BASSA/CC89 or thought it was a bluff. They soon found out the error of their ways. Many staff outside of cabin crew have been incensed that the management are prepared to restore staff travel to people who clearly wished to damage the financial state of the company - that's what striking does. Restoring this perk in ful before any settlement is reached is a fool's errand. We have seen Unite negotiate a deal which BASSA have accepted but then rejected before offering it to members. As a sign of good faith the company restored staff travel without seniority - a move that was greeted with a slap in the face from BASSA. Moreover, BASSA have put up a half baked collection of demands culled from a list that the BASSA branch secretary seems to have. These have been put forward as starting points for an agreement, not a settlement. In the face of that why on earth should BA management cede another bargaining chip to a group who clearly have no intention of negotiating ?

BASSA were told the deal was the best available. If the ballot results in more strike dates, they will find how bad things can ger. I predict that there will be no fresh offers and that the current deal will be withdrawn. Bear in mind that the team leading this dispute from the BA side are now under the legal department and that the man at the top is a finance chap. Not a good combination for unions

[Litebulbs]

Colonel

One word I have heard many times within the cabin crew community is standard. The collective approach brings this. OK, the employer would want the standard to be excellent, but there are three grades and 12000 staff and those staff are a major part of the brand.

The most excellent brand crew member in passenger interaction may sell 10% of the duty free sales of another crew member. Which would be the easier skill to quantify? I imagine First passengers aren't too worried about 200 L&B and a bottle of absolute, but want a level of service and equipment that the ticket price demands.

We have had two years of debate about the standard and level of BA cabin crew service, but individualising performance, rather than trying to achieve a constant high standard, is not the way to go, in my opinion.

[oh-oh]

but individualising performance, rather than trying to achieve a constant high standard, is not the way to go, in my opinion.

Hi Litebulbs,
But surely by managing the individual low performers you would raise the overall standard?

[Litebulbs]

oh-oh

Lets take this on a bit then; list what you would have as measures of performance?

Some easy ones would be -

Lateness
Sickness
SEP scores

No doubt there are already procedures in place to capability monitor for these.

[Human Factor]

Secret shoppers?

[ottergirl]

The current service style areas of assessment for CC are

Warm - friendly, approachable, etc to customers and colleagues
Professional - good representative of BA, uniform standards, etc
Thoughtful - anticipating customer needs, understanding
British - this one needs an explanation too long for a forum, think culture
safe and secure - obviously the approach to SEP and other stuff
responsible - personal accountability, reducing cost and waste

There are other 'hard' standards which are Punctuality, SEP, Security, Uniform, Documentation, Hygiene, Standards.

These assessments are supposed to be done every 90 to 120 days.

We do have all we need to manage crew, just need to do it! Consistently!

[Colonel White]

Litebulbs

I was not suggesting that there was anything wrong with collective bargaining, merely that by agreeing to join a work group that operates on that basis means that the individual accepts that they will be treated according to the average for that group of workers and that they accept the majority decision of those who are entitled to vote on any changes. I put it this way because there are a significant number of staff within all bargaining groups who are not TU members and as such have no influence over changes proposed. All they can do is accept or resign.

Measures of performance. I'm sure that you have come across management by objectives within BA before now. Setting individual objectives and targets is part of the supervisory and line management responsibility. Works elsewhere, why not in cabin crew. Straightforward objectives might be adherence to standards - i.e. uniform, mandatory training, assessment on SEP, slightly trickier ones might be customer service. In other areas the onus is on the individual to show by examples, that they have met targets, rather than managers making a value judgement. Suspect this would be as welcome as breaking wind in a lift.

That said, I'm not convinced that areas apart from MF would actually gain anything from performance manangement in this way. Certainly there is no incentive for existing WW and EF cabin crew as they have no performance related reward.

[ottergirl]

Measures of performance. I'm sure that you have come across management by objectives within BA before now. Setting individual objectives and targets is part of the supervisory and line management responsibility. Works elsewhere, why not in cabin crew. Straightforward objectives might be adherence to standards - i.e. uniform, mandatory training, assessment on SEP, slightly trickier ones might be customer service. In other areas the onus is on the individual to show by examples, that they have met targets, rather than managers making a value judgement.

Colonel White
This is the process that is used for cabin crew except that our Crew Managers have a team of about 200 crew each to manage so that chances of meeting each one even annually would require them to schedule a meeting daily. They wouldn't get anything else done.

[winstonsmith]

Has anyone an answer to the following?

Crew were told that refusing to close the window blinds after landing would be considered unlawful industrial action.

Why can't the same be said about refusing to delivering hot towels?

[Betty girl]

I am afraid I don't see what some of you seem to imply when it comes to customer service.

As a SCCM on E/F I see consistent good service from our cabin crew and crew striving to make our passengers happy.

I very rarely have to talk to a crew member about his or her performance because the performance of the majority of cabin crew, and I can only speak for E/F as that's where I work, is very high.

I actually have to question if some of you actually have flown as a passenger on one of our flights because the standard of service I personally see from my cabin crew is very good.

As for Right Engines post earlier regarding the disruption agreement, I can confirm that the agreement came into play during this disruption and therefore the Doms would not have been insisting crew had two days down route as per our usual agreements. During disruption, like the snow, BA has to inform the union of the fact that the Disruption agreement is being used ( it does not have to get permission) and this was done. Crew were stuck down route because the airport was closed to inbound aircraft and not due to crew or Doms insisting on two days.

[MrBunker]

We've a majority of pretty damned consistently excellent crew. We've a few poor ones. Like any experience, what do people notice and remember the most? The bad, naturally.

The above applies to management in BA, as much as it does to crew.

On that, rather obvious, note, I'm off to start on the fizz and prep myself for the usual anticlimactic New Year's bash.

Good wishes to all and here's to a mutually satisfactory resolution to this far too bitter and drawn out dispute.

ATB

MrB