BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Between a rock & a hard place.
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
6 Posts
Might I suggest that CCCP makes the point that IAG/BA will not stop at reducing the t&cs of the cabin crew community. With his buddy O'Leary this is a race to the bottom in terms of t&cs for all airline staff. The one agreement that covers all BA staff, except it would appear the new mixed fleet crew, is the re-deployment agreement. This is a great safe-guard for BA staff but an expence for BA. As ex-regional cabin crew, I know many of my regional office, ramp and customer service colleagues have been saved by the agreement.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PC767,
I don't think anyone was disputing that BA would rather have a redeployment agreement fit for their purposes rather than ours. Indeed, there have been negotiations to that effect. But there's a world of difference between you saying that and CCCP claiming (erroneously) that the crew who have elected to sign the new agreement have signed away all rights to the protections that agreement currently provides for all staff members. They categorically have not done so.
As for the PCCC, I agree, it's probably around about time some faces were put to the organisation to allow them to have their chance at offering the different way. Interestingly the "research" conducted earlier with the Certification Officer proves nothing about the origins or funding of the PCCC, merely the actions thus far taken/not taken on the road to recognition. It doesn't make it a management mouthpiece just because the likes of CCCP seem to need it to be that in order to fuel the righteous indignation so typical of many. (Not yourself PC767)
MrB
I don't think anyone was disputing that BA would rather have a redeployment agreement fit for their purposes rather than ours. Indeed, there have been negotiations to that effect. But there's a world of difference between you saying that and CCCP claiming (erroneously) that the crew who have elected to sign the new agreement have signed away all rights to the protections that agreement currently provides for all staff members. They categorically have not done so.
As for the PCCC, I agree, it's probably around about time some faces were put to the organisation to allow them to have their chance at offering the different way. Interestingly the "research" conducted earlier with the Certification Officer proves nothing about the origins or funding of the PCCC, merely the actions thus far taken/not taken on the road to recognition. It doesn't make it a management mouthpiece just because the likes of CCCP seem to need it to be that in order to fuel the righteous indignation so typical of many. (Not yourself PC767)
MrB
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow,
Really CCCP is that all you've got? It's called a council so it's not a union? Would that not make BASSA as an association something simillar. After all, they use the same nomenclature as BALPA - that's an association too. But, hang on, they're both operating as representative unions. What's in a name in this instance? Nothing and, thus, I'd argue your point carries no weight other than the usual vapid lunging that characterises so much of the BASSA message.
Only by the application of your own particular brand of logic could that then be seen as definitively proving the PCCC to be a sham. You posit an argument devoid of logical construction or fact. Not, sadly for BASSA, unusual. Your tenet seems to be that because you want the PCCC to be a management funded puppet/sweetheart union, then that is all that is needed to make it so. If, by the additional grasping of unrelated straws, you can add fuel to that rhetorical furnace, then, apparently, so much the better. I've lost count of how often I've said on here that if those who support the union (or association, if you will) came on here with fact and considered, reasoned debate, then you'd all be welcomed and (bar the few who seem to hate CC - and there are some sadly who post on here) the debate could grow. You never know, you might even win some people over. But we don't get that do we? We get the hysterical prognostications of who's next in line if we don't smell the coffee/get heads out of the sand etc. It's all bordering on insults and that, instantaneously, loses so much of the potential respect.
MrB
Really CCCP is that all you've got? It's called a council so it's not a union? Would that not make BASSA as an association something simillar. After all, they use the same nomenclature as BALPA - that's an association too. But, hang on, they're both operating as representative unions. What's in a name in this instance? Nothing and, thus, I'd argue your point carries no weight other than the usual vapid lunging that characterises so much of the BASSA message.
Only by the application of your own particular brand of logic could that then be seen as definitively proving the PCCC to be a sham. You posit an argument devoid of logical construction or fact. Not, sadly for BASSA, unusual. Your tenet seems to be that because you want the PCCC to be a management funded puppet/sweetheart union, then that is all that is needed to make it so. If, by the additional grasping of unrelated straws, you can add fuel to that rhetorical furnace, then, apparently, so much the better. I've lost count of how often I've said on here that if those who support the union (or association, if you will) came on here with fact and considered, reasoned debate, then you'd all be welcomed and (bar the few who seem to hate CC - and there are some sadly who post on here) the debate could grow. You never know, you might even win some people over. But we don't get that do we? We get the hysterical prognostications of who's next in line if we don't smell the coffee/get heads out of the sand etc. It's all bordering on insults and that, instantaneously, loses so much of the potential respect.
MrB
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or, to pick up from where others have left off (no doubt in exasperation)
1) Prove it's a sham.
2) Prove it's funded/set up by BA and BALPA.
3) Prove the founders are management lackys.
4) As you're so interested in the funding of the PCCC, please enlighten us as to the final destinations of so much of the BASSA subs.
If you can provide verifiable evidence (not assumption) of any of the first three then I will gladly, and unreservedly, offer my apologies for doubting you. As for the latter, it would behove you greatly to see where your own money goes. Given that the word from one of the founders of the PCCC is that so far the princely sum of £150 has been spent so far, I'd suggest that there's little muck to be raked there.
MrB
PS, I'm off for a few weeks now so please don't think me rude if I'm not here to respond to your rebuttals.
1) Prove it's a sham.
2) Prove it's funded/set up by BA and BALPA.
3) Prove the founders are management lackys.
4) As you're so interested in the funding of the PCCC, please enlighten us as to the final destinations of so much of the BASSA subs.
If you can provide verifiable evidence (not assumption) of any of the first three then I will gladly, and unreservedly, offer my apologies for doubting you. As for the latter, it would behove you greatly to see where your own money goes. Given that the word from one of the founders of the PCCC is that so far the princely sum of £150 has been spent so far, I'd suggest that there's little muck to be raked there.
MrB
PS, I'm off for a few weeks now so please don't think me rude if I'm not here to respond to your rebuttals.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another question for CCCP, although I suppose it's rhetorical as he won't answer it and I already know the answer: "Have you, or any of your union reps, ever set eyes on the 1948 Redeployment Agreement?"
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: london
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My offer to you – Heathrow December 2010
If you are not a member of the union, I am offering you the opportunity to accept the assurances outlined in this letter.
Pay
I can confirm that there will be no changes to your incremental pay and you will continue to receive rises until you reach the top of the scale for your grade.
Basic Pay
I am also offering you a two year pay deal that guarantees you will receive a pay rise in 2011/12 and 2012/13.
• Year one 2011/12 the company will increase base pay based on December 2010 RPI and capped at 2.9%.
• Year two 2012/13 the company will increase base pay based on December 2011 RPI and capped at 3%
Your next pay review will be from February 2013.
The new fleet
The mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and bargaining rights will begin flying on 1 November 2010. There will be a separate negotiating body for the new fleet, which will not discuss your terms and conditions.
Assurances for you
I know that you have some questions about what the introduction of the new fleet means to you. To continue to demonstrate my commitment to you and to address these questions, I am offering you the following assurances.
• Your terms and conditions – I can assure you that your existing contractual terms will be maintained for the future, unless amended through negotiation.
• Part-time – I will continue to honour commitments to make part-time offers to all crew on existing lists. The offer will be on existing fleets, terms and conditions. Future part-time opportunities will continue to be available.
• Access to route network – I intend to ensure a fair and transparent distribution of routes to all fleets, based on commercial need.
• Access to aircraft type – I intend to deploy new aircraft based on commercial need across existing and new fleets. New aircraft will be introduced on a fair and transparent basis across all the company’s fleets. Your existing terms, conditions and fleet agreements will apply when new aircraft are operated on existing fleets. As new aircraft are introduced across all of the company’s fleets, you will be trained in order to receive the necessary licenses as required by regulation.
• Career structure and opportunities for current crew – The career structure for current crew within current fleets will continue on the basis of existing practice, unless amended through negotiation. I can confirm that where there are opportunities available, existing crew will be promoted on existing terms and conditions on current fleets.
• Honouring current and future agreements –The importance of honouring agreements is acknowledged, and the company is committed to working with current arrangements.
• Ability to transfer fleet/base on current terms and conditions – As with the current process, there is no guarantee of achieving a transfer. However, I am committed to continue with the current practice of transfers at Heathrow between Eurofleet and Worldwide, and to find a mechanism to aid limited transfers from Gatwick under current terms and conditions.
• Variable pay top up - To provide increased assurance in relation to security of earnings, the company will introduce a variable pay top up. For those Heathrow crew whose annual variable pay falls below the average earnings for their grade and fleet in 2009/10, the company will pay a top up lump sum every year after the launch of the new fleet. The amount to be topped up will be the difference between the variable earnings achieved by the crew member and the average amount for the grade and fleet, if there is a shortfall.
The average variable pay for grade and fleet will include variable pay elements listed in appendix I. Adjustments will be made for non flying time, including unpaid leave, sickness, line trainer duties and TU duties and activities.
The payment will be pro-rated for part-time crew.
The payment will only be made to those crew who do not participate in industrial action.
You will have the opportunity to apply for all roles on the new fleet if you choose. This will provide promotion opportunities for many current crew. All crew joining the new fleet will have separate terms and conditions.
People
It is important that there is no victimisation arising from the dispute and the company will work to ensure that any issues are settled in a mature and professional way. Where there are disciplinary or grievance cases, it is my intention that these will be resolved quickly. Where behaviour is found to be serious, any resulting action will be measured and proportionate.
Summary
This individual offer maintains your contractual rights at their current level. This offer, if you choose to accept it, does not reduce or extend them from where they are today.
This is a genuine offer made on behalf of the company. We are continuing to try and reach a collective agreement with Unite, with whom we will continue to collectively bargain. However, after such a long time unsuccessfully trying to reach agreement, I have decided to make this offer directly to you so that you can move on, with certainty and reassurance about your future with British Airways.
If you want to accept this individual offer, then please complete the attached form, and return it in the enclosed pre-paid envelope. Please do not return the whole document – this is for you to keep.
If you are not a member of the union, I am offering you the opportunity to accept the assurances outlined in this letter.
Pay
I can confirm that there will be no changes to your incremental pay and you will continue to receive rises until you reach the top of the scale for your grade.
Basic Pay
I am also offering you a two year pay deal that guarantees you will receive a pay rise in 2011/12 and 2012/13.
• Year one 2011/12 the company will increase base pay based on December 2010 RPI and capped at 2.9%.
• Year two 2012/13 the company will increase base pay based on December 2011 RPI and capped at 3%
Your next pay review will be from February 2013.
The new fleet
The mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and bargaining rights will begin flying on 1 November 2010. There will be a separate negotiating body for the new fleet, which will not discuss your terms and conditions.
Assurances for you
I know that you have some questions about what the introduction of the new fleet means to you. To continue to demonstrate my commitment to you and to address these questions, I am offering you the following assurances.
• Your terms and conditions – I can assure you that your existing contractual terms will be maintained for the future, unless amended through negotiation.
• Part-time – I will continue to honour commitments to make part-time offers to all crew on existing lists. The offer will be on existing fleets, terms and conditions. Future part-time opportunities will continue to be available.
• Access to route network – I intend to ensure a fair and transparent distribution of routes to all fleets, based on commercial need.
• Access to aircraft type – I intend to deploy new aircraft based on commercial need across existing and new fleets. New aircraft will be introduced on a fair and transparent basis across all the company’s fleets. Your existing terms, conditions and fleet agreements will apply when new aircraft are operated on existing fleets. As new aircraft are introduced across all of the company’s fleets, you will be trained in order to receive the necessary licenses as required by regulation.
• Career structure and opportunities for current crew – The career structure for current crew within current fleets will continue on the basis of existing practice, unless amended through negotiation. I can confirm that where there are opportunities available, existing crew will be promoted on existing terms and conditions on current fleets.
• Honouring current and future agreements –The importance of honouring agreements is acknowledged, and the company is committed to working with current arrangements.
• Ability to transfer fleet/base on current terms and conditions – As with the current process, there is no guarantee of achieving a transfer. However, I am committed to continue with the current practice of transfers at Heathrow between Eurofleet and Worldwide, and to find a mechanism to aid limited transfers from Gatwick under current terms and conditions.
• Variable pay top up - To provide increased assurance in relation to security of earnings, the company will introduce a variable pay top up. For those Heathrow crew whose annual variable pay falls below the average earnings for their grade and fleet in 2009/10, the company will pay a top up lump sum every year after the launch of the new fleet. The amount to be topped up will be the difference between the variable earnings achieved by the crew member and the average amount for the grade and fleet, if there is a shortfall.
The average variable pay for grade and fleet will include variable pay elements listed in appendix I. Adjustments will be made for non flying time, including unpaid leave, sickness, line trainer duties and TU duties and activities.
The payment will be pro-rated for part-time crew.
The payment will only be made to those crew who do not participate in industrial action.
You will have the opportunity to apply for all roles on the new fleet if you choose. This will provide promotion opportunities for many current crew. All crew joining the new fleet will have separate terms and conditions.
People
It is important that there is no victimisation arising from the dispute and the company will work to ensure that any issues are settled in a mature and professional way. Where there are disciplinary or grievance cases, it is my intention that these will be resolved quickly. Where behaviour is found to be serious, any resulting action will be measured and proportionate.
Summary
This individual offer maintains your contractual rights at their current level. This offer, if you choose to accept it, does not reduce or extend them from where they are today.
This is a genuine offer made on behalf of the company. We are continuing to try and reach a collective agreement with Unite, with whom we will continue to collectively bargain. However, after such a long time unsuccessfully trying to reach agreement, I have decided to make this offer directly to you so that you can move on, with certainty and reassurance about your future with British Airways.
If you want to accept this individual offer, then please complete the attached form, and return it in the enclosed pre-paid envelope. Please do not return the whole document – this is for you to keep.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, but we don't want you back. You have made your bed; now lie in it.....with BF!!!
I assume there isn’t anything preventing an employee that has accepted the offer from joining post it’s signing?
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brighton UK
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fly12345.
What you have reproduced is only a PROMISE!! It is not binding on BF or BA in anyway. They can change their minds tomorrow.
It is like the Mixed Fleet. There is NO AGREEMENT, only a framework. That is all you have.
What would you do if BA reneged on their deal with you? What could you do?
For instance many main crew on current contracts have applied for CSM on MF? Why? Because they don't believe there will be any promotion on "existing fleets and contracts".
What you have reproduced is only a PROMISE!! It is not binding on BF or BA in anyway. They can change their minds tomorrow.
It is like the Mixed Fleet. There is NO AGREEMENT, only a framework. That is all you have.
What would you do if BA reneged on their deal with you? What could you do?
For instance many main crew on current contracts have applied for CSM on MF? Why? Because they don't believe there will be any promotion on "existing fleets and contracts".
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cccp
The many BA flight crew who pontificate on this forum about cabin crew matters, only have their current pension provisions thankls to the Redeployment Agreement. Do you think they would sign a new offer and risk losing those gold plated pensions.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: on a cloud
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CCCP,
This is what Bill said in his recent webchat about the redeployment agreement.
Hi ,
I want to be really clear, that contrary to what you may have heard from other sources, we have NOT terminated the redeployment agreement.
We have talked in the past to all Trade Unions across BA about working towards a modern approach to an agreement that is almost 40 years old, while continuing to try to avoid compulsory redundancies.
In IFCE we have adopted an entirely voluntary approach to any leavers through increasing part time offers and voluntary redundancy. This remains our approach.
There are currently no talks underway re updating the redeployment agreement
Thanks
Bill
__________________
Bill Francis
Head of InFlight Customer Experience (IFCE)
You are right in saying that this is something that will be revised in the future, None of us have a crystal ball. Not even you. So why not deal with these things when and if they happen instead of focusing on the what if's? Discussions about the Redeployment Agreement are company wide. We need a representative body to engage, challenge and influence BA along with the rest of the TUs involved. Not a body who relinquish themselves from the facilities agreements and support 'no negotiation'.
As for Union-busting? Shifting the power back to BA to enable it to manage the company... YES. Union-busting.. NO! More like a stripping of power. 13,500 crew still need to be represented.
I have also scoured each word of Bills proposal for the word Redeployment and anything that might be associated to it and cannot find a mention of it at all. Can you direct me to where you have seen it?
What do you think will be the outcome for yourselves CCCP?
Do you think that you will be able to squeeze more out of BA than the current offer?
What happens if the current offer gets withdrawn and all the high earning routes move to MF?
Do you think the majority of BASSA will ever be happy?
This is what Bill said in his recent webchat about the redeployment agreement.
Hi ,
I want to be really clear, that contrary to what you may have heard from other sources, we have NOT terminated the redeployment agreement.
We have talked in the past to all Trade Unions across BA about working towards a modern approach to an agreement that is almost 40 years old, while continuing to try to avoid compulsory redundancies.
In IFCE we have adopted an entirely voluntary approach to any leavers through increasing part time offers and voluntary redundancy. This remains our approach.
There are currently no talks underway re updating the redeployment agreement
Thanks
Bill
__________________
Bill Francis
Head of InFlight Customer Experience (IFCE)
You are right in saying that this is something that will be revised in the future, None of us have a crystal ball. Not even you. So why not deal with these things when and if they happen instead of focusing on the what if's? Discussions about the Redeployment Agreement are company wide. We need a representative body to engage, challenge and influence BA along with the rest of the TUs involved. Not a body who relinquish themselves from the facilities agreements and support 'no negotiation'.
As for Union-busting? Shifting the power back to BA to enable it to manage the company... YES. Union-busting.. NO! More like a stripping of power. 13,500 crew still need to be represented.
I have also scoured each word of Bills proposal for the word Redeployment and anything that might be associated to it and cannot find a mention of it at all. Can you direct me to where you have seen it?
What do you think will be the outcome for yourselves CCCP?
Do you think that you will be able to squeeze more out of BA than the current offer?
What happens if the current offer gets withdrawn and all the high earning routes move to MF?
Do you think the majority of BASSA will ever be happy?
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: on a cloud
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How can exisiting legacy crew represent MF contracted employees
the whole point of the Mixed Fleet is that it is a non unionised workforce
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cccp / PC767
Sorry folks, you can't have your cake and eat it! BASSA 'represent' 'Legacy' crew at Heathrow, new contract at LHR, Gatwick, LH and SH. All different contracts and agreements. You are trying to tell us the PCCC shouldn't represent MF?
Lets see.. PCCC have (we suspect) old contract crew sticking their necks out, risking all sorts of vile abuse and retribution from the BASSA diehards, wishing to genuinely represent MF.
BASSA are almost exclusively old contract CSD's and Pursers, milking the system, who have sanctioned abuse and torment of their 'own', and wreaked havoc on the daily lives of all crew and others besides, because they didn't want to have to push a trolly?
Lets see.. PCCC have (we suspect) old contract crew sticking their necks out, risking all sorts of vile abuse and retribution from the BASSA diehards, wishing to genuinely represent MF.
BASSA are almost exclusively old contract CSD's and Pursers, milking the system, who have sanctioned abuse and torment of their 'own', and wreaked havoc on the daily lives of all crew and others besides, because they didn't want to have to push a trolly?
[quote=CCCP;6216725]For those crew who are now "enjoying" a 2.9% pay rise, I want to remind them that their exisitng T&C's are soley down to BASSA.
Dear oh dear WRONG again!!
The majority of current T & C's are down to pre 1989 BASSA (not the same thing as post 1989 BASSA) and Cabin Crew 89.
BASSA didn't even sign the Long Range Agreement or the 1997 restructuring which increased Pensionable pay for everyone!
Please get the facts straight.
ps and the only thing they did agree to was the post 1997 new entrant cabin crew pay scales (verified by the NSP minutes at the time)
Dear oh dear WRONG again!!
The majority of current T & C's are down to pre 1989 BASSA (not the same thing as post 1989 BASSA) and Cabin Crew 89.
BASSA didn't even sign the Long Range Agreement or the 1997 restructuring which increased Pensionable pay for everyone!
Please get the facts straight.
ps and the only thing they did agree to was the post 1997 new entrant cabin crew pay scales (verified by the NSP minutes at the time)
Last edited by vctenderness; 1st Feb 2011 at 13:37. Reason: added for clarity
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A talking shop with about as much clout as a Hamster Appreciation Club.
Haven't BASSA done well up to now. Upset their colleagues, annoyed their peers and even managed to upset their Union paymasters with their ill informed and ill thought out communications.
I do love the line '7% of the workforce 25% of the wages' from Crewforum. How imaginative. Show me an airline where it is any different. (Hint: SH Captains working for EasyJet are on the same, or depending upon base, better than BA SH Captains. Sorry to burst your bubble)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Prey tell me what have BASSA helped achieve in the last two years?