British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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Duggie,
The Airbus Captain did not have to resign as a rep. He volunteered before BALPA had even formulated a "stance" on this issue. BALPA did not make him resign, he chose to, there was no compulsion, he was not made to do anything, he did not have to resign over this issue at all.
He has, incidently, been re-elected with a significant proportion of the vote. As to his views wrt pilot T&Cs, this thread is not about that.
BALPA have retained a neutral stance throughout this dispute towards VCCs. Unlike BASSA, BALPA does not order it's members about, expecting rigid obedience to the political will of the politburo. Strangely enough BALPA provides its members with all the information and encourages internal debate and individual choice.
As for the rest of your argument, it does not stop Virgin et al getting crew. The fact they do not stay there for the rest of their careers is neither here not there. The "slave labour" you refer to certainly seem to socialise everywhere we go to that coincides with their route network. So perhaps your doom and gloom scenario does not match the reality experienced by operators with significantly lower CC costs than BA.
an Airbus Captain had to resign as a BALPA rep because he was compromising allegedly BALPA's position
He has, incidently, been re-elected with a significant proportion of the vote. As to his views wrt pilot T&Cs, this thread is not about that.
BALPA have retained a neutral stance throughout this dispute towards VCCs. Unlike BASSA, BALPA does not order it's members about, expecting rigid obedience to the political will of the politburo. Strangely enough BALPA provides its members with all the information and encourages internal debate and individual choice.
As for the rest of your argument, it does not stop Virgin et al getting crew. The fact they do not stay there for the rest of their careers is neither here not there. The "slave labour" you refer to certainly seem to socialise everywhere we go to that coincides with their route network. So perhaps your doom and gloom scenario does not match the reality experienced by operators with significantly lower CC costs than BA.
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I keep hearing on this forum, that it was only the minority of crew who went on strike. I have to say that that on all my trips since IA took place, this is most definitely not the case. Even Bill Francis refuses to release the actual figures which suggests the wool is being pulled too. I suppose we will only know for sure, when all strike pay claims have been processed, and that won't even include sickness. recent numbers being circulated suggest 7000-8000 people have lost staff travel. Whilst these figures are yet to be confirmed it is my honest opinion, that the majority of crew right or wrong have in some form withdrawn their labour. I think many of you on this forum are underestimating the true support.
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You will always be at the bottim of the seniority list and will get the most unpopular positions every trip. If the flight is delayed, you get nothing extra, whilst the rest of the crew will be on overtime.
There will also be no "unpopular" positions on New Fleet. Working positions will be automatically assigned so crew remain familiar with the working routies of all cabins. This is to stop the current situation of senior crew choosing "easy" working positions in WT most of the time and then finding themselves doing a flight in Club/First and being completely unfamiliar with the service routine.
Hourly rates should also mean they get paid during any delays.
If existing crew are so appalled at the starting salaries for new crew, perhaps they would like to fund pay increases by giving the company some productivity savings (which is all the company asked for in the first place)?
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Juan.
You obviously do not know the meaning of the word "resign", which means to give up an office or position voluntarily. The Airbus Captain had to withdraw from his position as a rep, because his conduct was incompatible with BALPA's neutral position. To prove the point, he actually flew as a VCC to Boston. I hope this is clear.
This thread is not about BALPA, but the attitude and conduct of many of its members have prolonged the cabin crew dispute, yet they are obviously concerned about their own T&C's. It is hypocrisy to protect your own inflated salaries, yet undermine another group of workers who have faced an onslaught on their T&C's.
New contract cabin crew in British Airways face a future condemned to low pay with virtually no promotion prospects. This is not a career prospect flying for BA anymore. There will be no fun flying to destinations but you cannot afford to go out. You will be constantly knackered with the combination of shorthaul and longhaul flying, battling with time changes and wondering how you are going to pay next months bills on so little pay. As an example, Temp crew who have enjoyed better T&C's in the past and who have come back on the new terms, are leaving in their droves. That says it all.
Yes LD. You do not paint an attractive picture at all of the new contract. During a delay situation new contract actually do not earn any extra money. You are completely wrong to state this and it is untruthful. They are paid £2.40 an hour. If the delay happens ex base, this just eats into their time off with no extra pay. If the aircraft arrives late into base, say two hours, they will get an extra £4.80. Nowhere hear the overftime and box payment rates that BA mainline crew currently enjoy.
On the Mixed Fleet the allocation of work positons will not be popular. The most experienced crew should work the Premium cabins and in the current seniority based system, most crew choose to do that. All BA are doing with the Mixed Fleet is taking away choice and making seniority count for nothing
You obviously do not know the meaning of the word "resign", which means to give up an office or position voluntarily. The Airbus Captain had to withdraw from his position as a rep, because his conduct was incompatible with BALPA's neutral position. To prove the point, he actually flew as a VCC to Boston. I hope this is clear.
This thread is not about BALPA, but the attitude and conduct of many of its members have prolonged the cabin crew dispute, yet they are obviously concerned about their own T&C's. It is hypocrisy to protect your own inflated salaries, yet undermine another group of workers who have faced an onslaught on their T&C's.
New contract cabin crew in British Airways face a future condemned to low pay with virtually no promotion prospects. This is not a career prospect flying for BA anymore. There will be no fun flying to destinations but you cannot afford to go out. You will be constantly knackered with the combination of shorthaul and longhaul flying, battling with time changes and wondering how you are going to pay next months bills on so little pay. As an example, Temp crew who have enjoyed better T&C's in the past and who have come back on the new terms, are leaving in their droves. That says it all.
Yes LD. You do not paint an attractive picture at all of the new contract. During a delay situation new contract actually do not earn any extra money. You are completely wrong to state this and it is untruthful. They are paid £2.40 an hour. If the delay happens ex base, this just eats into their time off with no extra pay. If the aircraft arrives late into base, say two hours, they will get an extra £4.80. Nowhere hear the overftime and box payment rates that BA mainline crew currently enjoy.
On the Mixed Fleet the allocation of work positons will not be popular. The most experienced crew should work the Premium cabins and in the current seniority based system, most crew choose to do that. All BA are doing with the Mixed Fleet is taking away choice and making seniority count for nothing
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Duggie
For someone trying to appear serious about this you display a crucial lack of knowledge regarding your subject.
All new crew will be on the new "mixed fleet" - they will not be flying with crew from EF or WW so all this stuff about seniority is a complete red herring - they only seniority issue between old & new crew ill be the date of joining for staff travel!
This "can't afford to eat" mantra is very lame. The hourly rate doesn't seem to stop the temps from being sociable downroute. Gatwick crew who are on reduced rations compared with their colleagues fom LHR are not known for being shy & retiring when away on a trip. From experience it is the well paid crew at LHR who seem to be unable to come out in the evening.
As for overtime for delayed flights - Welcome to the new world. Gone (except on planet BASSA) are the days of money for doing nothing. Why should you get overtime for sitting on your arse in a hotel or waiting for a flight to take-off. New fleet crew members will get their hourly rate whilst delayed exactly as their flight crew colleagues do.
Anyone who takes a job as cabin crew under the new T&C's (£11,000 a year plus £2.40 an hour) must be desperate. Whilst the crew you fly with can afford to go out, you will have to bring your own food with you on trips. You will always be at the bottim of the seniority list and will get the most unpopular positions every trip. If the flight is delayed, you get nothing extra, whilst the rest of the crew will be on overtime.
All new crew will be on the new "mixed fleet" - they will not be flying with crew from EF or WW so all this stuff about seniority is a complete red herring - they only seniority issue between old & new crew ill be the date of joining for staff travel!
This "can't afford to eat" mantra is very lame. The hourly rate doesn't seem to stop the temps from being sociable downroute. Gatwick crew who are on reduced rations compared with their colleagues fom LHR are not known for being shy & retiring when away on a trip. From experience it is the well paid crew at LHR who seem to be unable to come out in the evening.
As for overtime for delayed flights - Welcome to the new world. Gone (except on planet BASSA) are the days of money for doing nothing. Why should you get overtime for sitting on your arse in a hotel or waiting for a flight to take-off. New fleet crew members will get their hourly rate whilst delayed exactly as their flight crew colleagues do.
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A lot of untruths are printed on this forum by some people who purport to know what they are talking about.ie Thunderbug. You clearly have blown your cover as it is obvious you are a B777 pilot. This is a cabin crew forum by the way.
Current crew are only paid overtime when they are on duty with passengers, not for "sitting on their arses in a hotel".
Of course if Gatwick crew were on the same hourly rate as the pilots, they could afford to go out more.
Currently temps are flying with Mainline crew on new contract terms, as per the Mixed Fleet. You need to get your facts right Thunderbug before you make comments that are irrelevent. Your lack of knowledge on this subject makes your contributions rather pointless.
Current crew are only paid overtime when they are on duty with passengers, not for "sitting on their arses in a hotel".
Of course if Gatwick crew were on the same hourly rate as the pilots, they could afford to go out more.
Currently temps are flying with Mainline crew on new contract terms, as per the Mixed Fleet. You need to get your facts right Thunderbug before you make comments that are irrelevent. Your lack of knowledge on this subject makes your contributions rather pointless.
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You obviously do not know the meaning of the word "resign", which means to give up an office or position voluntarily. The Airbus Captain had to withdraw from his position as a rep, because his conduct was incompatible with BALPA's neutral position. To prove the point, he actually flew as a VCC to Boston. I hope this is clear.
You accuse many of BALPAs members of being hypocrits but provide no evidence of such, once again the actions of the VCCs are individual actions and as such are not condoned by BALPA. So BALPA act to protect pilot T&C's, which is their remit while saying nothing about the nonsense behaviour of BASSA that is slowly and effectively hurting it's own members T&C's. But enough of this about BALPA and pilots, this thread is about BA vs BASSA.
As to the rest of the argument - perhaps if you tried fact rather than emotional arguments that do not hold up when examined you may get more sympathy. As to whether or not the pay and T&C's will be enough, the market will decide. If BA cannot crew their flights the money will have to go up. If, on the other hand people jump at the chance, like they do for the other airlines in the UK, then the pay will stay where it is.
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I am not going to get involved in the petty sniping displayed here in the last few posts. I like facts.
The facts are, no matter how anyone tries to wriggle out of this, that a BALPA rep who had to resign, flew as a VCC to Boston. There is nothing irrelevant about that.
The evidence of hypocrisy displayed by BA pilots who worked as VCC, is that they are now worried how the merger of Iberia with BA will affect their future pay prospects and current T&C's. They are more than happy to shaft their cabin crew colleagues, and their conduct should be called into question when they now seek to protect their salaries which on average, are 30% more than other UK carriers.
The facts are, no matter how anyone tries to wriggle out of this, that a BALPA rep who had to resign, flew as a VCC to Boston. There is nothing irrelevant about that.
The evidence of hypocrisy displayed by BA pilots who worked as VCC, is that they are now worried how the merger of Iberia with BA will affect their future pay prospects and current T&C's. They are more than happy to shaft their cabin crew colleagues, and their conduct should be called into question when they now seek to protect their salaries which on average, are 30% more than other UK carriers.
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Duggie Fashion said,
New contract cabin crew in British Airways face a future condemned to low pay with virtually no promotion prospects. This is not a career prospect flying for BA anymore. There will be no fun flying to destinations but you cannot afford to go out. You will be constantly knackered with the combination of shorthaul and longhaul flying, battling with time changes and wondering how you are going to pay next months bills on so little pay. As an example, Temp crew who have enjoyed better T&C's in the past and who have come back on the new terms, are leaving in their droves. That says it all.
New contract cabin crew in British Airways face a future condemned to low pay with virtually no promotion prospects. This is not a career prospect flying for BA anymore. There will be no fun flying to destinations but you cannot afford to go out. You will be constantly knackered with the combination of shorthaul and longhaul flying, battling with time changes and wondering how you are going to pay next months bills on so little pay. As an example, Temp crew who have enjoyed better T&C's in the past and who have come back on the new terms, are leaving in their droves. That says it all.
We all make and have choices, and I'm sure the applicants who join Mixed Fleet will be aware of the Terms and Conditions when they apply for their positions. Most of them who have flown with other airlines, still chose to apply to BA. Has it occurred to you that many are graduates who want to fly for a few years out of choice? Still, it will be good to have that experience on your CV having worked in customer service in BA and to some, it will be a foot in the door possibly giving them opportunities to other jobs in BA and IAG.
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The facts are, no matter how anyone tries to wriggle out of this, that a BALPA rep who had to resign, flew as a VCC to Boston. There is nothing irrelevant about that.
Rather than see this as something totally shameful, as BASSA sees it, I look on it as someone who sacrificed their hard won position to support something he saw as morally important to protect his future.
There is a time and a place for any dispute. As BASSA have sucessfully managed to avoid dragging themselves into the real world with the rest of the company they are paying the price now. The OS dispute was purely over the fact that BALPA offered the company a cost neutral way of combining all pilots onto a common seniority roster. The company refused while they were making large profits.
Do not compare the two when the entire of BA rationalised and agreed cost savings whilst the CC Union protected their ivory tower during a period when the entire aviation industry was facing dreadful uncertainty.
You want facts:
BASSA have never won basic Terms and Conditions changes for their members, they have merely protected what was granted them.
BASSA got it wrong over the imposition being contractual.
BASSA got it wrong over re-imposition of Staff Travel.
BASSA got it wrong over the impact of the strike.
BASSA got it wrong when they stated that public opinion was behind them.
BASSA got it wrong when the publically stated that they ARE BA.
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Duggie
I won't be drawn into a slanging match....
I humbly aplogise I acknowledge that overtime is not paid while sitting on your arse in the hotel - only whilst sleeping in the bunk - The imfamous "box payment" where 1 min late results in a payment only bettered by the national lottery.
I am also fully aware that temps are flying with main crew.Flew with one recently. He was the only member of crew to come out and be social that evening. The stories he related about his experience of working with main crew were depressing to say the least.
The Gatwick hourly rate does not seem to stop them from coming out. Maybe if BASSA had done a better job on the HMRC allowance tax survey; Gatwick crew may have had more to spend on themselves and less to donate to the Chancellor.
P.S Not 777; Airbus
I agree with you that this a cabin crew forum, but what do you think the PP of PPRuNe stands for?
I won't be drawn into a slanging match....
I humbly aplogise I acknowledge that overtime is not paid while sitting on your arse in the hotel - only whilst sleeping in the bunk - The imfamous "box payment" where 1 min late results in a payment only bettered by the national lottery.
I am also fully aware that temps are flying with main crew.Flew with one recently. He was the only member of crew to come out and be social that evening. The stories he related about his experience of working with main crew were depressing to say the least.
The Gatwick hourly rate does not seem to stop them from coming out. Maybe if BASSA had done a better job on the HMRC allowance tax survey; Gatwick crew may have had more to spend on themselves and less to donate to the Chancellor.
P.S Not 777; Airbus
I agree with you that this a cabin crew forum, but what do you think the PP of PPRuNe stands for?
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The problem is Tiramisu, that having BA on your CV is no longer a plus. Remember dozens of academics who teach industrial relations have supported BA's cabin crew.
The BA brand is in a terminal freefall. Due to all of the negative publicity, the length of the cabin crew dispute and public rubbishing of BA's front line employees, customers take the view "well if that is what the CEO thinks of his staff, why should I book with British Airways?"
Any graduate who thinks that a couple of years chucking out chicken and beef is going to enhance his or her career prospects needs their heads examined. Not really an 'intelligent' thing to do.
Thunderbug. Cabin crew are on duty even when they are taking bunk rest. Pilots take bunk rest too and still get their hourly credits. However in airlines like Emirates, bunk rest only achieves a 50% credit. That seems to me like a good idea.
The BA brand is in a terminal freefall. Due to all of the negative publicity, the length of the cabin crew dispute and public rubbishing of BA's front line employees, customers take the view "well if that is what the CEO thinks of his staff, why should I book with British Airways?"
Any graduate who thinks that a couple of years chucking out chicken and beef is going to enhance his or her career prospects needs their heads examined. Not really an 'intelligent' thing to do.
Thunderbug. Cabin crew are on duty even when they are taking bunk rest. Pilots take bunk rest too and still get their hourly credits. However in airlines like Emirates, bunk rest only achieves a 50% credit. That seems to me like a good idea.
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oh dear, do we have another "fume event" "Stall Pusher" or "puss in boots" here............ well at least the style and overall substance is the same
Doug said
So why keep bringing BALPA and pilots to the argument doug?
Why don't you ask BASSA/UNITE what they are doing about UNITE members from all across the BA work areas who are VCC? You know the ones Doug....., then report back here
1. Check in agents who are members of UNITE
2. Ramp service agents who are members of UNITE
3.Turn around Managers who are member of UNITE
4. GTS drivers who are members of UNITE
In fact these "other" VCC outnumber pilot VCCs by 5 to 1, how about that for a "fact" that must stick a knife right to the heart of rank and file cabin crew because BASSA have simply not done enough to stop this happening!
7800 cabin crew still have there staff travel...... says it all really!
well at least the style and overall substance is the sameDoug said
This is a cabin crew forum by the way.
Why don't you ask BASSA/UNITE what they are doing about UNITE members from all across the BA work areas who are VCC? You know the ones Doug....., then report back here
1. Check in agents who are members of UNITE
2. Ramp service agents who are members of UNITE
3.Turn around Managers who are member of UNITE
4. GTS drivers who are members of UNITE
In fact these "other" VCC outnumber pilot VCCs by 5 to 1, how about that for a "fact" that must stick a knife right to the heart of rank and file cabin crew because BASSA have simply not done enough to stop this happening!
7800 cabin crew still have there staff travel...... says it all really!
Last edited by Pornpants1; 17th Jul 2010 at 13:39. Reason: moderated for the italian desert
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The BA brand is in a terminal freefall. Due to all of the negative publicity, the length of the cabin crew dispute and public rubbishing of BA's front line employees, customers take the view "well if that is what the CEO thinks of his staff, why should I book with British Airways?"
I don't think that's necessarily true. I still come across premium passengers every day who are loyal to BA and strongly believe in the BA brand. Things are far from perfect as a result of the cabin crew dispute but I have never heard our CEO Willie Walsh rubbish us, not once. Only this week at the AGM, Martin Broughton praised all crew who have been working professionally and brilliantly and in my experience too,(and why shouldn't they) since the end of the dispute.
Any graduate who thinks that a couple of years chucking out chicken and beef is going to enhance his or her career prospects needs their heads examined. Not really an 'intelligent' thing to do
Last edited by Tiramisu; 17th Jul 2010 at 13:44.
Duggie Fashion
You miss the point-the reason for New Fleet is that BA cannot afford to pay the present high T&Cs enjoyed by our cc. (£700ish on top of salary for a trip to Hkg etc etc.,vs Virgin cc £250 ish))
Last edited by cessnapete; 17th Jul 2010 at 13:57.
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Anyone who has seen Michael Moore's film Capitalism: a love story, saw that thousands of pilots in the USA are living in trailer homes, dog walking or waitressing to make up their pay. Perhaps that is why so many BA pilots volunteered to be cabin crew during the disputes, to get some practice in.
BA's pilots and those of Iberia know the writing is on the wall. The blueprint for what BA is doing to its cabin crew is at QANTAS. It is not innovative. For BA's pilots the future is a BA version of JetStar. Hang on a moment, how is OpenSkies doing at the moment?
BA cabin crew will reject the latest offer by a huge majority, then there will be a ballot for more industrial action. Will Willie Walsh be able to hand over the reins to Keith Williams whilst the company is convulsed in industrial action? What do the Iberia unions think about the current strife at BA and what it means for them?
Whilst this is going on and all the bad press almost daily, forward bookings are being decimated. I think Iberia have got a really bad deal merging with a carrier in terminal decline. Perhaps they might still pull out?
BA's pilots and those of Iberia know the writing is on the wall. The blueprint for what BA is doing to its cabin crew is at QANTAS. It is not innovative. For BA's pilots the future is a BA version of JetStar. Hang on a moment, how is OpenSkies doing at the moment?
BA cabin crew will reject the latest offer by a huge majority, then there will be a ballot for more industrial action. Will Willie Walsh be able to hand over the reins to Keith Williams whilst the company is convulsed in industrial action? What do the Iberia unions think about the current strife at BA and what it means for them?
Whilst this is going on and all the bad press almost daily, forward bookings are being decimated. I think Iberia have got a really bad deal merging with a carrier in terminal decline. Perhaps they might still pull out?
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DF you quote. It is hypocrisy to protect your own inflated salaries, yet undermine another group of workers who have faced an onslaught on their T&C's.
I would be very interested which ofyour T&C's have been caught up in this onslaught. Just the facts, as you like these.
Rgds
I would be very interested which ofyour T&C's have been caught up in this onslaught. Just the facts, as you like these.
Rgds
Last edited by beesflyer; 17th Jul 2010 at 17:17.
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To anyone who thinks that BA's offer of £11,000pa plus £2.40ph allowance is poor should consider this.
A friend of mine teaches travel and tourism at a college and has several students who have passed the course. Now, should they become BA cabin crew, learn valuable skills during and after training, make use of what they have learnt at college, travel around, maybe start a career.
Or should they hang around home, unemployed, struggling to even get work as a bartender or Saturday girl.
Not a difficult choice, is it?
A friend of mine teaches travel and tourism at a college and has several students who have passed the course. Now, should they become BA cabin crew, learn valuable skills during and after training, make use of what they have learnt at college, travel around, maybe start a career.
Or should they hang around home, unemployed, struggling to even get work as a bartender or Saturday girl.
Not a difficult choice, is it?
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Don't blame the BASSA proles.
The very idea of a Union being proactive and addressing possible concerns years ahead of their actual probability is a concept so alien to BASSA that they just can't grasp it.
That any Union can proactively address, quantify and plan changes that might happen as to be in a position to negotiate them without the spectre of abject surprise must be difficult for a reactive Union such as BASSA.
As to the 'trailer park' of the US, the Colgan Air Buffalo crash has opened the eyes of the FAA into the state of their domestic services, a problem that the CAA and EASA are also acutely aware of. To such an extent that there is federal interest in ensuring that minor things like pay and rest are dramatically improved for personell who have, in their hands so to speak, the lives of passengers and Cabin Crew.
Be careful what you choose as your 'factual' points.
As to the future of CC in BA?
I think you have answered your own questions here.
BA do not want career Cabin Crew any more. The days of 'First class restaurant' service, even in first, are long gone. Meals are no longer prepared on board and the ability to place a tray in accordance with a picture is not demanding.
In the past the CSD was the 'maitre'd' attending to every detail of the premier customers orders. No longer unfortunately. As a maitre'd they would expect to get paid more than staff in McDonalds. Sadly as cash has become king and costs have been driven down the service in the cabin can be compared more to McDonalds than Savoy.
The rotational training costs will be peanuts compared to the costs of retaining long term crew.
Oddly enough the same cannot be said of the drivers where experience is king. Also BA pay pilots market rate for the type of operation. Have a look, find your beloved facts.
The very idea of a Union being proactive and addressing possible concerns years ahead of their actual probability is a concept so alien to BASSA that they just can't grasp it.
That any Union can proactively address, quantify and plan changes that might happen as to be in a position to negotiate them without the spectre of abject surprise must be difficult for a reactive Union such as BASSA.
As to the 'trailer park' of the US, the Colgan Air Buffalo crash has opened the eyes of the FAA into the state of their domestic services, a problem that the CAA and EASA are also acutely aware of. To such an extent that there is federal interest in ensuring that minor things like pay and rest are dramatically improved for personell who have, in their hands so to speak, the lives of passengers and Cabin Crew.
Be careful what you choose as your 'factual' points.
As to the future of CC in BA?
This is not a career prospect flying for BA anymore.
that having BA on your CV is no longer a plus.
Any graduate who thinks that a couple of years chucking out chicken and beef is going to enhance his or her career prospects needs their heads examined. Not really an 'intelligent' thing to do.
BA do not want career Cabin Crew any more. The days of 'First class restaurant' service, even in first, are long gone. Meals are no longer prepared on board and the ability to place a tray in accordance with a picture is not demanding.
In the past the CSD was the 'maitre'd' attending to every detail of the premier customers orders. No longer unfortunately. As a maitre'd they would expect to get paid more than staff in McDonalds. Sadly as cash has become king and costs have been driven down the service in the cabin can be compared more to McDonalds than Savoy.
The rotational training costs will be peanuts compared to the costs of retaining long term crew.
Oddly enough the same cannot be said of the drivers where experience is king. Also BA pay pilots market rate for the type of operation. Have a look, find your beloved facts.