British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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When we talk of "Only ST and malicious BA disciplinaries" let's not forget what some of the suspensions are for.
Written/phone threats to kidnap a pilot VCC's children
Written/txt threats to poison pilots food.
Compiling/ disseminating lists of "Pilot Scabs"
Creating "dodgy" websites and linking to PCCC/BA via google
Refusing to talk to operating Captain, instead turning away and giving him the bird in a briefing.
Should BA overturn these to appease Unite/BASSA???
As to ST, personally, I'm not that fussed. My only concern is that I want to discourage willful striking instead of proper negotiation, so I am leaning towards no ST, maybe the limited return Willie offered last time is a deal is forthcoming soon.
My real concern is we are left with a simmering undercurrent of malcontent, and we end up here again in 18 months. I think BA, including the vast majority of great C Crew deserve better than that.
Written/phone threats to kidnap a pilot VCC's children
Written/txt threats to poison pilots food.
Compiling/ disseminating lists of "Pilot Scabs"
Creating "dodgy" websites and linking to PCCC/BA via google
Refusing to talk to operating Captain, instead turning away and giving him the bird in a briefing.
Should BA overturn these to appease Unite/BASSA???
As to ST, personally, I'm not that fussed. My only concern is that I want to discourage willful striking instead of proper negotiation, so I am leaning towards no ST, maybe the limited return Willie offered last time is a deal is forthcoming soon.
My real concern is we are left with a simmering undercurrent of malcontent, and we end up here again in 18 months. I think BA, including the vast majority of great C Crew deserve better than that.
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Dave3, Quote:
well we will agree to disagree on the numbers that did fly you will have your view and I will have mine....
Dave, if by this you mean the BASSA text stating that just 26 crew turned up for work on the second day of the first strike, when I, on that very day, had been on standby at CRC on an 05.30 standby, then yes we'll have to disagree, my old mate. Now maths may not have been my strong point at school, but I can assure you that the numbers of regular crew (not volunteers) in CRC, just in the 4 1/2 hours I was there, (we were being sent home early due to there being little need for standbys and CRC was getting a bit crowded....) far exceeded 26.
I can also assure you, me old mucker, that the next day when my friend was on standby, that she nearly let out a little bit of wee laughing so much at the text from BASSA claiming that just 5 had turned up.
well we will agree to disagree on the numbers that did fly you will have your view and I will have mine....
Dave, if by this you mean the BASSA text stating that just 26 crew turned up for work on the second day of the first strike, when I, on that very day, had been on standby at CRC on an 05.30 standby, then yes we'll have to disagree, my old mate. Now maths may not have been my strong point at school, but I can assure you that the numbers of regular crew (not volunteers) in CRC, just in the 4 1/2 hours I was there, (we were being sent home early due to there being little need for standbys and CRC was getting a bit crowded....) far exceeded 26.
I can also assure you, me old mucker, that the next day when my friend was on standby, that she nearly let out a little bit of wee laughing so much at the text from BASSA claiming that just 5 had turned up.
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MELC
Pan Am
TWA
JAL
Lehman Brothers
Sorry, but repercussions and industry impact are not longer 'get out of jail free' cards. Even the Roman Empire crumbled eventually
I truly believe that BA will survive - the repercussions worldwide would be huge and is bad for the industry
TWA
JAL
Lehman Brothers
Sorry, but repercussions and industry impact are not longer 'get out of jail free' cards. Even the Roman Empire crumbled eventually
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Root cause of problem
no matter how you answer,
what you said, I believe is the heart of the issue:
it does not matter what other people say, does it? whatever you believe, you will not listen to what others are saying.
I feel like there is no point in arguing, and I guess I now understand how we got to a point where WW could actually say he did not believe his offers were going to be enough.
People with the attitude above do not want to negotiate, they want to win.
That is what the strike is really about: winning against WW and the other wicked WTS managers.
The more I read on this thread the more it seems to me that some CC only focus on looking at other departments: they earn more than we do, the other ones are paid to volunteer, the other ones did not loose staff travel, the other ones did not give anything up etc.
IF you are so keen on comparing than compare it all, not just the bits that suit you
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Good to be back!
An interesting article for you all...especially the last sentence.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/ruth-wishart/industrial-relations-crash-land-in-court-1.1028707
An interesting article for you all...especially the last sentence.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/ruth-wishart/industrial-relations-crash-land-in-court-1.1028707
Controversial, moi?
juan odeboyse
An interesting article. Leaving aside the simple and clear guidance on how to disseminate ballot results being ignored by UNITE being called legal nit picking, the line
strikes a chord.
The question is how is that achieved when one side is refuses to believe the necessity of change and after a mob ruled mass meeting votes for 'no negotiation' on a show of hands?
An interesting article. Leaving aside the simple and clear guidance on how to disseminate ballot results being ignored by UNITE being called legal nit picking, the line
Every piece of worthwhile research suggests that companies whose performance outstrips those of rival concerns on both sides of the Atlantic are those where the management and shop floor share and buy into common goals.
The question is how is that achieved when one side is refuses to believe the necessity of change and after a mob ruled mass meeting votes for 'no negotiation' on a show of hands?
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Juan Odeboyse
Sorry to disagree, but actually for the overwhelming majority of the employees at BA, it's the first sentence that is the most important!
A small minority at BA have sought to bring the company down, over miniscule changes to their working practices.
It's a power struggle, pure and simple. I don't want 1980 union dinosaurs running BA.
They can't even organise a legal strike!
An interesting article for you all...especially the last sentence.
A small minority at BA have sought to bring the company down, over miniscule changes to their working practices.
It's a power struggle, pure and simple. I don't want 1980 union dinosaurs running BA.
They can't even organise a legal strike!
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You are all going to have to stop the 1970's / 80's comments to these CC negotiations.
Remember we were within £10m of what was needed...and that was due to the unknown NF, so I feel UNITE were doing pretty well. Along comes WW with just one agenda - union busting...and here we are all today.
This is NOT the way to manage and run such a large company as BA. UNITE are not without their problems but WW is causing this dispute to drag on.
A simple way out would be to re-instate ST for all and if needbe give those that came to work a free tkt or similar.
Remember we were within £10m of what was needed...and that was due to the unknown NF, so I feel UNITE were doing pretty well. Along comes WW with just one agenda - union busting...and here we are all today.
This is NOT the way to manage and run such a large company as BA. UNITE are not without their problems but WW is causing this dispute to drag on.
A simple way out would be to re-instate ST for all and if needbe give those that came to work a free tkt or similar.
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If the judgement goes against Unite, it has indicated it will hold another ballot of cabin crew in the row over pay, jobs and working conditions.
A betting man may suggest that there won't be another ballot in exchange for BA not pursuing Unite for the earlier strike.
Who knows, although this cycle of ballot-strike-injunction has to be broken at some point.
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Originally Posted by Juan Odeboyse
Remember we were within £10m of what was needed
Bassa's offer also required a full pay back after two years, so please Juan Odeboyse explain where the actual savings for BA are?
for the overwhelming majority of the employees at BA, it's the first sentence that is the most important!
( A bit like asking: "Apart from that Jackie, how was the rest of your day in Dallas...?")
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Court Verdict on Unite appeal - not yet
Guardian onlline:
10.11am:
The verdict was due at 9.30am, there was even talk of it being released at 9am. Not sure why the court is keeping us waiting.
9.35am:
Still waiting for a verdict. At the court Helen Pidd has spotted both of Unite's joint general secretaries, Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson. It's their first appearance at the court, she says. Read into that what you will
The verdict was due at 9.30am, there was even talk of it being released at 9am. Not sure why the court is keeping us waiting.
9.35am:
Still waiting for a verdict. At the court Helen Pidd has spotted both of Unite's joint general secretaries, Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson. It's their first appearance at the court, she says. Read into that what you will
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Juan
You know as well as the rest of us that the so called £10 m gap was smoke and mirrors, The gap was considerably more than that, furthermore BASSA wanted the proposed savings returned after three years.
Sadly, your reps have never negotiated in good faith and have led you and your colleagues down the road to potential large job losses as well as endagering the jobs of thousands of others. They have acted irresponsibly, incompetently and in some cases criminally.
It is difficult to fathom how a clearly intelligent and articulate individual like you can argue in favour of such a bunch of 70's pantomime figures.
You know as well as the rest of us that the so called £10 m gap was smoke and mirrors, The gap was considerably more than that, furthermore BASSA wanted the proposed savings returned after three years.
Sadly, your reps have never negotiated in good faith and have led you and your colleagues down the road to potential large job losses as well as endagering the jobs of thousands of others. They have acted irresponsibly, incompetently and in some cases criminally.
It is difficult to fathom how a clearly intelligent and articulate individual like you can argue in favour of such a bunch of 70's pantomime figures.
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Court verdict on Unite appeal - 1 down, 2 to go
Guardian online:
10.21am:
One of the judges, the Lord Chief justice has allowed the appeal. But we are still waiting the verdict of the other two judges, Helen reports. If one of the agrees the appeal is upheld.
One of the judges, the Lord Chief justice has allowed the appeal. But we are still waiting the verdict of the other two judges, Helen reports. If one of the agrees the appeal is upheld.
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Court verdict on Unite appeal - in the balance
Guardian online:
10.43am:
It's going to extra time. A second judge, Lord Neuberger, the master of the rolls, has dismissed the appeal. So it's now 1-1. The decision rests on the verdict of the third judge Lady Justice Smith
It's going to extra time. A second judge, Lord Neuberger, the master of the rolls, has dismissed the appeal. So it's now 1-1. The decision rests on the verdict of the third judge Lady Justice Smith
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Juan...
I remember nothing of the sort. What I do remember is that BASSA offered pay-cuts that the membership did not want, were not consulted on & certainly didn't vote for.
They also cut-n-pasted a small part of the pilots' sacrifices and jumbled them all together with some other ill-thought out and, of course, undemocratically decided policies. These they presented to British Airways AFTER the deadline that everyone else managed to meet and at which WW said he would have to impose changes (who's dragging this out?).
This package of 'cost-savings', was woefully short of the required amount (as independently audited by PWC) and was TEMPORARY!!! Now, that I do remember! BASSA claiming that BA had made up the recession to beat them down!!Hee hee, shouldn't laugh I suppose!
Either way....savings that need to be repaid in full in two years time are NOT permanent savings nor what was clearly required and what every other department managed to deliver, without the delay-tactics, the tantrums and the foot-stomping.
Not too bad an idea, but what of all the victims of war crimes that BA has holed up in bamboo cages under 2 metres of putrid water? You seem to skip over the fact that BASSA have deliberately demanded something they know Willie cannot give.
....let me guess, Wicked Willie Walsh ticks ALL of the boxes that BASSA demand to be ticked (as Woodley has confirmed), EVEN reinstatement of staff travel, albeit with an earlier get-over-it d.o.j (let's be fair, any staff travel back is a RESULT!).
The only hoop he is UNABLE to jump through for reasons of fairplay, honesty, morality and in fact legality, is giving in to BASSAs OUTRAGEOUS demands that he abuse his position of authority and turn a blind eye to accusations of bullying, harassment, intimidation, poisoning, (which, lets face it, if you get done for poisoning a pilot will be dealt with as terrorism) and even kidnapping!!!
So BASSA make sure that one of their ridiculous demands is not just difficult, as with the staff travel, but physically IMPOSSIBLE, especially due to the fact that the police are involved.........Yes, I see where you're coming from, it's Walsh who is 'causing this dispute to drag on'!
Really? That's really what you think? No faint recollection of a little global financial crisis, aviation hit hardest, BA hit the worst within the aviation sector, losing more money than we ever have before, two years in succession (also a first), all departments given a year to outline cost savings measures OF THEIR OWN CHOOSING? None of this ringing any bells?
All other departments inspecting the company books, taking independent financial advice, canvassing opinion from membership, coming up with proposals, balloting and voting on said proposals, coming to a DEMOCRATIC AND INFORMED decision, agreeing to (yet again) work harder for less money and doing all this WELL WITHIN the year deadline TO KEEP BA FLYING!
All this done in the knowledge that the precious cabin staff would fanny around for months (now years), bluster randomly about human rights, whip normal cc up into a frenzy about nothing and, in the face of no better plan, pull out their tired old trump, a lame and unpopular strike.....(we all said it at the time, it wan't a surprise to us and obviously not to WW!)
Did BASSA do any of the research and negotiation that the other work groups undertook? No, they did none of those things, because they knew they were just going to stick their fingers in their ears, as always, claim victimisation, as always, and take the membership out on an unjustified strike, as always.......you say this was only ever about union busting. I say it was an entirely predictable consequence of poking a relatively gentle and friendly bear with a big pointy stick my friend. Why do BASSA think all the other work groups agreed to the required changes? Because we're not as good as them?
Let's leave the management up to the those paid reassuringly & justifiably large sums for their demonstrable skills at managing, shall we?
....Or do BASSA think they can run the company better?.......You know what, I think actually they probably do think that, and that is the HEART OF THE PROBLEM right there.
Remember we were within £10m of what was needed...and that was due to the unknown NF, so I feel UNITE were doing pretty well.
They also cut-n-pasted a small part of the pilots' sacrifices and jumbled them all together with some other ill-thought out and, of course, undemocratically decided policies. These they presented to British Airways AFTER the deadline that everyone else managed to meet and at which WW said he would have to impose changes (who's dragging this out?).
This package of 'cost-savings', was woefully short of the required amount (as independently audited by PWC) and was TEMPORARY!!! Now, that I do remember! BASSA claiming that BA had made up the recession to beat them down!!Hee hee, shouldn't laugh I suppose!
Either way....savings that need to be repaid in full in two years time are NOT permanent savings nor what was clearly required and what every other department managed to deliver, without the delay-tactics, the tantrums and the foot-stomping.
A simple way out would be to re-instate ST for all and if needbe give those that came to work a free tkt or similar.
UNITE are not without their problems but WW is causing this dispute to drag on.
The only hoop he is UNABLE to jump through for reasons of fairplay, honesty, morality and in fact legality, is giving in to BASSAs OUTRAGEOUS demands that he abuse his position of authority and turn a blind eye to accusations of bullying, harassment, intimidation, poisoning, (which, lets face it, if you get done for poisoning a pilot will be dealt with as terrorism) and even kidnapping!!!
So BASSA make sure that one of their ridiculous demands is not just difficult, as with the staff travel, but physically IMPOSSIBLE, especially due to the fact that the police are involved.........Yes, I see where you're coming from, it's Walsh who is 'causing this dispute to drag on'!
Along comes WW with just one agenda - union busting...and here we are all today.
All other departments inspecting the company books, taking independent financial advice, canvassing opinion from membership, coming up with proposals, balloting and voting on said proposals, coming to a DEMOCRATIC AND INFORMED decision, agreeing to (yet again) work harder for less money and doing all this WELL WITHIN the year deadline TO KEEP BA FLYING!
All this done in the knowledge that the precious cabin staff would fanny around for months (now years), bluster randomly about human rights, whip normal cc up into a frenzy about nothing and, in the face of no better plan, pull out their tired old trump, a lame and unpopular strike.....(we all said it at the time, it wan't a surprise to us and obviously not to WW!)
Did BASSA do any of the research and negotiation that the other work groups undertook? No, they did none of those things, because they knew they were just going to stick their fingers in their ears, as always, claim victimisation, as always, and take the membership out on an unjustified strike, as always.......you say this was only ever about union busting. I say it was an entirely predictable consequence of poking a relatively gentle and friendly bear with a big pointy stick my friend. Why do BASSA think all the other work groups agreed to the required changes? Because we're not as good as them?
This is NOT the way to manage and run such a large company as BA
....Or do BASSA think they can run the company better?.......You know what, I think actually they probably do think that, and that is the HEART OF THE PROBLEM right there.
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From the court listings
THE MASTER OF THE ROLLS’ COURT COURT 71
Before THE LORD CHIEF JUSTICE OF ENGLAND & WALES
THE MASTER OF THE ROLLS and
LADY JUSTICE SMITH
Thursday, 20th May, 2010
At 9:30
FOR JUDGMENT
APPLICATION
C1/2010/1197 British Airways Plc -v- Unite The Union. Application of Defendant for permission to appeal.
Before LORD JUSTICE MOORE-BICK
LORD JUSTICE MOSES and
LORD JUSTICE MUNBY
Not Before 12 o'clock
APPLICATION
A2/2009/2293 Taylor-Forrest -v- Owen & Anr. Application of Defendant for permission to appeal with appeal to follow if granted.
Every news agency is saying that Unite will carry on with strikes on Monday, but surely by looking at the second entry above they just have 'permission to appeal' and not actually won THE appeal??? So they still have to appeal???
Before THE LORD CHIEF JUSTICE OF ENGLAND & WALES
THE MASTER OF THE ROLLS and
LADY JUSTICE SMITH
Thursday, 20th May, 2010
At 9:30
FOR JUDGMENT
APPLICATION
C1/2010/1197 British Airways Plc -v- Unite The Union. Application of Defendant for permission to appeal.
Before LORD JUSTICE MOORE-BICK
LORD JUSTICE MOSES and
LORD JUSTICE MUNBY
Not Before 12 o'clock
APPLICATION
A2/2009/2293 Taylor-Forrest -v- Owen & Anr. Application of Defendant for permission to appeal with appeal to follow if granted.
Every news agency is saying that Unite will carry on with strikes on Monday, but surely by looking at the second entry above they just have 'permission to appeal' and not actually won THE appeal??? So they still have to appeal???