British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
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A different slant from the Press
Mark Steel: BA strike - a complete load of ballots - Mark Steel, Commentators - The Independent
Something a bit different from the Independent today.
melc
Not saying they would win, what is in question is whether, in a fair society, their right to legal redress should be taken away. The legislation states that staff taking part in a legal strike should not be treated unfairly because of exercising that right. The removal of perks could be argued to be unfair treatment but would need testing in a court of law. Clarity for both sides and if BA are confident that they are in the right, then they have nothing to fear. Refusing to allow that right might suggest they are not confident.
Something a bit different from the Independent today.
melc
What you say maybe correct BUT and a BIG BUT staff travel is a PERK and can be withdrawn at any time regardless of any reason - so how that can stand up in a court of law beats me.
Last edited by ottergirl; 19th May 2010 at 11:38.
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Ottergirl
Ottergirl said:
But isn't the current offer from BA as near-as-damnit the same as the final offer before the first strike?
When nobody had as yet lost their staff travel?
The one that Duncan Holley said that he wouldn't even touch, it was so unworthy?
(Or, of course, I might be completely wrong!)
ATB
If staff travel had been fully re-instated this whole affair would, IMHO be over!
When nobody had as yet lost their staff travel?
The one that Duncan Holley said that he wouldn't even touch, it was so unworthy?
(Or, of course, I might be completely wrong!)
ATB
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Ottergirl
do you not think that
is a substantial movement from his original position that was declared before any strike action took place.... the one of ' staff travel will be removed permanently ' ?
And, are you really saying that
This is a strike over removal of a company benefit? One that was advised well in advance of any strike action.
Did the union hold a proper ballot for this? I don't recall any ballot papers being sent out.
Do I hear another court case being prepared?
WW has only offered to re-instate their travel with a joining date of now so any strikers will lose all on-load seniority, accrued free tickets, etc. Additionally, the new offer came with a rider that the strikers would agree not to pursue BA in court for full re-instatement of staff travel
And, are you really saying that
If staff travel had been fully re-instated this whole affair would, IMHO be over!
Did the union hold a proper ballot for this? I don't recall any ballot papers being sent out.
Do I hear another court case being prepared?
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Is it just me?
I am fed up of hearing how people have a fundamental right to strike,blah, blah, blah. Of course they do!
But seem to fail to grasp the fact that in doing so they cost the company millions of pounds and spoil the travel plans of many of our passengers, thereby making some of them refuse to ever fly with us again.
Do you really expect both BA and the rest of it's employees to say "Fair enough, we don't mind. We all turned up to work and you didn't, but please don't worry, no offence taken" .
And we are led to believe that some of the suspensions are for allegedly serious offences. That process should always be outside any settlement.
I am fed up of hearing how people have a fundamental right to strike,blah, blah, blah. Of course they do!
But seem to fail to grasp the fact that in doing so they cost the company millions of pounds and spoil the travel plans of many of our passengers, thereby making some of them refuse to ever fly with us again.
Do you really expect both BA and the rest of it's employees to say "Fair enough, we don't mind. We all turned up to work and you didn't, but please don't worry, no offence taken" .
And we are led to believe that some of the suspensions are for allegedly serious offences. That process should always be outside any settlement.
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I am not saying the strike is over staff travel; we all know it is over imposition.
However, any negotiated 'way forward' document will look to cross t's and dot i's for the avoidance of any confusion later on. Thus the strikers that I have spoken to at work each day have a position (right or wrong) that they should not be penalised for taking part in a lawful dispute and they are seeking to protect that right. Any successful resolution therefore should take that into consideration. Most of them seem to accept that disciplinary cases will run their course and are outside the union's sphere of influence.
So I say again, I believe that, if staff travel was offered to be fully re-instated before the next ballot, this dispute will be dead in the water and a NO vote registered.
However, any negotiated 'way forward' document will look to cross t's and dot i's for the avoidance of any confusion later on. Thus the strikers that I have spoken to at work each day have a position (right or wrong) that they should not be penalised for taking part in a lawful dispute and they are seeking to protect that right. Any successful resolution therefore should take that into consideration. Most of them seem to accept that disciplinary cases will run their course and are outside the union's sphere of influence.So I say again, I believe that, if staff travel was offered to be fully re-instated before the next ballot, this dispute will be dead in the water and a NO vote registered.
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I imagine they will never return to this site, due to the way that they were treated. Maybe not by you or the majority on here, but when they were attacked, not many posters defended them. You do not have to agree with a single word they say, but playing the player happened too much.
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Nevermind
OK, playing devils advocate here. The striking cabin crew do grasp that (and believe me our customers have told us that most vociferously on the aircraft) but there is no way for CC to strike and not have that happen. Can you think of any other way for them to lawfully withhold their labour and not affect our customers? Same for any front-line Customer service staff in BA or outside. The whole point of a strike is that it is a last resort of disgruntled employees and the final tool in their negotiating arsenal.
I am not a Union member and my opinions are my own.
But seem to fail to grasp the fact that in doing so they cost the company millions of pounds and spoil the travel plans of many of our passengers, thereby making some of them refuse to ever fly with us again.
I am not a Union member and my opinions are my own.
Last edited by ottergirl; 19th May 2010 at 11:57.
Junior trash
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Thus the strikers that I have spoken to at work each day have a position (right or wrong) that they should not be penalised for taking part in a lawful dispute and they are seeking to protect that right.
2. Re 'Rights' See the article above in particular this paragraph
Under UK law the starting point is that an employee generally has no rights against an employer who has treated him less well than others because he took part in industrial action.
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I am not saying the strike is over staff travel; we all know it is over imposition.
Try and find 10 crewmembers who can agree over, and clearly discuss, the reasons for the strike.
You should have bitten Willie's hand off over the last offer, which included a very fair deal on staff travel.
What will the next offer look like?
My advice ............... Take it!!
Then find some new reps.
Oh sorry, forgot , you can't because they changed the constitution (on a show of hands I believe) so you can't get rid of them.
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Ottergirl
If you accept that staff should not be penalised for taking part in a lawful dispute, why should the company be financially penalised for being in dispute with BASSA? Why should the passengers be penalised also?
Instead, BASSA has currently led the crew into a potentially job threatening position.
I feel sorry for the crew, I truly do. The loss of staff travel and possible job loss must be very worrying.
However, I feel sure it will not come to that.
Why? Because regardless of the rhetoric from BASSA HQ, BA are not the evil employer being portrayed in these embarrassing comms.
Staff travel will return, even though WW initially said it wouldn't . He HAS compromised.
But seniority will probably not be returned alas.
He owes that to the crew that did turn up, as much as anything else.
If you accept that staff should not be penalised for taking part in a lawful dispute, why should the company be financially penalised for being in dispute with BASSA? Why should the passengers be penalised also?
Instead, BASSA has currently led the crew into a potentially job threatening position.
I feel sorry for the crew, I truly do. The loss of staff travel and possible job loss must be very worrying.
However, I feel sure it will not come to that.
Why? Because regardless of the rhetoric from BASSA HQ, BA are not the evil employer being portrayed in these embarrassing comms.
Staff travel will return, even though WW initially said it wouldn't . He HAS compromised.
But seniority will probably not be returned alas.
He owes that to the crew that did turn up, as much as anything else.
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Speaking personally, as a Crew member who did turn up, I have no problem with Staff Travel being re-instated IN FULL for the Crew members who did take part in legal action. I make this statement because no other group in BA who have taken strike action i.e T1 ground staff, have ever suffered a loss of Staff Travel even when it was an unlawful strike. I see no benefit in denying them other than in spite, as a punishment or a deterrent to other staff groups.
In the interests of the company I work for and the job I love, I would be happy to see common sense prevail.
I am not a Union member and my opinions are my own.
In the interests of the company I work for and the job I love, I would be happy to see common sense prevail.
I am not a Union member and my opinions are my own.
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Ottergirl...
you wrote that...
'Negotiating arsenal'?! Give us a break...you know as well as I do that the union did NOT attempt to negotiate with BA.
I put it to you that striking is the ONLY tool in this lots' 'arsenal' and it has proven to be monumentally ineffective and self-damaging beyond comprehension.
Please don't trot out the usual BASSA crap that they only want Willie to get back around the table...they refused to sit at it for 14 months (and way beyond the deadline) and when they did finally pretend to sit down and 'talk', they chopped the table up into little pieces and burned it along with their self-respect and any hopes that CC might have had that BASSA even wanted a settlement!
The whole point of a strike is that it is a last resort of disgruntled employees and the final tool in their negotiating arsenal.
I put it to you that striking is the ONLY tool in this lots' 'arsenal' and it has proven to be monumentally ineffective and self-damaging beyond comprehension.
Please don't trot out the usual BASSA crap that they only want Willie to get back around the table...they refused to sit at it for 14 months (and way beyond the deadline) and when they did finally pretend to sit down and 'talk', they chopped the table up into little pieces and burned it along with their self-respect and any hopes that CC might have had that BASSA even wanted a settlement!
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It may well be that it is their only tool in your opinion but it is still their right to use it. I don't like the way they do business, I have no desire to be part of them but I still do accept that it is their right to strike. Of course, as Spiderman knew "with great power comes responsibility", and so, the consequences of that action is theirs as well. I never want to see the day when a group of employees with a legitimate grievance would not have a voice.
I don't support BASSA or even Amicus in this but I will defend the right to belong to a Union if you want.
I am not a Union member and my opinions are my own.
I don't support BASSA or even Amicus in this but I will defend the right to belong to a Union if you want.
I am not a Union member and my opinions are my own.
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as a punishment or a deterrent to other staff groups.
The only problem I can see is that BASSA 'promised' cc that they couldn't get sacked (doh) and that Willie couldn't take their staff travel (doh).
If I were cc I'd be taking BASSA to court for all the lies and deliberate misrepresentation, very easily provable to have been in the interests of a few at the top to the detriment of the fee-paying masses at the bottom.
.....and let's face it, BASSA are shockingly good at just ONE thing...losing court cases.
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flybymerchant
So, why do you believe that CC should be singled out to lose their staff travel when no other employee group has been? Shouldn't we then retrospectively remove it from every dept who has ever withheld their labour? Why not extend that to every negotiating group who have ever threatened to strike eh? We could wipe out half our employees staff travel that way and what a happy and fulfilled bunch they will be.
Or could this be the time to move on and get back to our core business of flying folk from a to b? Wouldn't it be better to make headlines for our fantastic product or winning awards for innovation instead of the constant negative?
I am not a Union member and my opinions are my own.
So, why do you believe that CC should be singled out to lose their staff travel when no other employee group has been? Shouldn't we then retrospectively remove it from every dept who has ever withheld their labour? Why not extend that to every negotiating group who have ever threatened to strike eh? We could wipe out half our employees staff travel that way and what a happy and fulfilled bunch they will be.
Or could this be the time to move on and get back to our core business of flying folk from a to b? Wouldn't it be better to make headlines for our fantastic product or winning awards for innovation instead of the constant negative?
I am not a Union member and my opinions are my own.
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I agree that we should all belong to a union and I haven't seen any evidence that BA want it any other way. Fair and sensible union representation has a well-deserved position in the modern world, and has clear benefits for the employee AND the employer. Unfair and idiotic/destructive 'representation' has no place....anywhere.
The onus should be on cabin crew to leave the union and stop paying for this campaign when they realises that they have been lied to and misrepresented but it looks like they fear that there is no alternative at the moment (until PCCC gets recognition?)
As the cc seem unwilling/scared to help themselves, Willie Walsh has a duty of care to his employees to destroy the cult....he may not get the chance unless he hurries up though, as they themselves seem hell-bent on self-destruction, with their silly videos and their pathetic attempts at withdrawing labour that doesn't really get missed and will become less and less damaging as Willie starts external recruitment immediately.....as the strike was unlawful/illegal, there is currently no active dispute at BA, so he's free to recruit straight away as I understand it.
Also Unite appear about ready to turn their backs on BASSA.....again
The onus should be on cabin crew to leave the union and stop paying for this campaign when they realises that they have been lied to and misrepresented but it looks like they fear that there is no alternative at the moment (until PCCC gets recognition?)
As the cc seem unwilling/scared to help themselves, Willie Walsh has a duty of care to his employees to destroy the cult....he may not get the chance unless he hurries up though, as they themselves seem hell-bent on self-destruction, with their silly videos and their pathetic attempts at withdrawing labour that doesn't really get missed and will become less and less damaging as Willie starts external recruitment immediately.....as the strike was unlawful/illegal, there is currently no active dispute at BA, so he's free to recruit straight away as I understand it.
Also Unite appear about ready to turn their backs on BASSA.....again