British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[Bucking Bronco]

Is the issue of support (or rather lack of it) for the CC from the public and other BA employees an issue for the strikers - I doubt it.

The problem here is that we've got two groups who have painted themselves into a corner - the impression I get is that WW has taken a ginger step forward (offering the return of staff travel after 6months) but BASSA haven't reciprocated.

First the strike was about imposition, then new fleet, now ST and disciplinaries - the goal posts keep changing.

What the CC have got to ask themselves is how this is going to end? What do they have to gain/lose and what does WW/BA stand to gain/lose? Looking at this as objectively as I can - if I was CC I'd be absolutely bricking it now.

[License to Fly]

a couple of observations :-

1 WW has said he has been available for talks at all time

We are a massive company making a substantial loss contending with volcanic ash/mexican flu/other airline competition/various BA mergers. Surely WW needs to spend his time running BA and guiding it back to profitability, rather than sorting out a dispute with an arrogant union who have had it too good for too long ? This has been going on for too long and wasted too much time.

2 my crystal ball prediction - BA soon start recruiting at market rate +10%, BA now has the infrastructure to train large numbers of crew. These recruits all go onto new fleet. New Fleet suddenly does ALL the profitable routes and the OSL and NRT will be a thing of the past for everyone not on new fleet (I hope everyone enjoys india and Africa ....)

IMHO, WW will probably not sack CC as it would be bad PR, but he will manage you out of the business by hitting you with lower wages and no perks (ie staff travel free tickets) - performance management will also be a useful tool. I am sure there are many other ways of doing this as well.

Does anyone else have any other ideas on what WW will/could do?

[Ops_Room_Junkie]

tony woodley

TW is quoted on the BBC website as saying the following....

Unite joint general secretary Tony Woodley reiterated that BA needs to talk to the union to settle the dispute.
"The question BA's board should be asking themselves is not how many planes will operate, but what is the cost of this strike to the company?" he added.

surely I am not alone with the 100's of other loyal and level headed BA staff who feel the opposite.
'The question BA's board should be asking themselves is not what is the cost of this strike to the company, but the cost of not sorting out this union, its members and their unrealistic terms and conditions once and for all!'

[flybymerchant]

New Contract for all cabin crew, written on a fresh, blank sheet of recyclable paper:

-market rate for strikers who sign the contract, resignation (with no redundancy pay) for those who don't.

-2 year pay freeze with no incremental pay rises this year for non-strikers.

-new contract (and pay for strikers) to be benchmarked on other carriers.

-new disruption agreement, new redeployment agreement

-all mickey-mouse cc allowances to be added to the 'pot' and distributed equally and fairly, just like the pilots.

-powers to run the company returned to the management

-new recruitment onto New Fleet to begin immediately to allow all part-time requests and swift expansion once BASSA stop crippling the company

-IFCE to draw up a permanent budget to show that the £100m+ target that they are to save is being met by above measures....any excess can be re-inserted into the system each year by increasing the hourly rate....the hourly rate cannot go down, it is guaranteed.

-All strikers lose staff travel permanently.

-Pro-active performance management to be introduced, as in real companies.

-BASSA and Unite officially de-recognised by BA, PCCC offered temporary trial recognition

-Rest of Cabin Crew rewarded/incentivised with share scheme that BASSA 'forgot' to tell cabin crew about........similar to the pilots' one (don't get too excited, it's minimal, but it's something!) Only pays out if BA return to BIG profit.

Free 100% staff travel ticket (taxes paid) for all non-strikers, from all departments as a one-off thankyou from WW.

[Ops_Room_Junkie]

PENSION

Reference the quotes on here about the BASSA rep who was sacked but took his pension before leaving.....does anyone know, if BA go bust as a result of this disgraceful behaviour by a small minority of employees (yes, those of us AGAINST you ((as a whole group, not individuals)) far outnumbered any figures that you may dream up for CC supporting strike action) will his pension still be paid/protected....in fact, as a point of order will any of our pensions by protected after this bunch a bandits raid the company for every last penny it has???

[Doors To Manuel]

3 strikes and you're out!

Rightengine / MiamiMike

Thanks for your pub anecdotes. I too was imbibing last evening, and guess what I can report from the Home Counties heartland? Nothing...nada..zilch! No one is interested anymore. Even my pals did not bother to raise the subject.

In case no one has noticed, Volcanoes have provided far more excitement and column inches, judges have decided that BA senior managers are not such rogues as we thought, and the Dave n' Nick show is giving the country a new spirit of cooperation.

In other words the strikers PR battle is lost. Game over...thank goodness!

[melc]

As far as I am aware if you have left the company and claimed your pension it is secure as if anything happens to BA the government have to guarantee the pension payments.

If you are still an employee of BA and it goes into bankrupcy or banks call in the debt (same thing really) then I do not think staff get their pensions - or maybe some of it but with the current state of the pension deficit I wouldn't hold your breath.

It is in every employee's interest to keep this airline going - what other airline is recruiting at the moment - not many.

As far as re-instating staff travel is concerned I have been reading remarks made by CC in newspapers etc that they don't use it anyway or its not worth the paper its written on - I'm confused - why is this a sticking point for striking then - please someone explain.
Staff travel is a perk not a g-d given right and the company can withdraw it at anytime.

[M.Mouse]

Posted by fume event:

I suppose the Airbus and 747 First Officers are trying on their pinnies again, only that if it wasn't for our Flight Crew colleagues sticking their noses into our business, the dispute would have been over long ago.

I would suggest if FC had not been volunteering for VCC duties it would have made absolutely no difference to the ineffective strikes. Numbers trained against total VCC from across the company = small number, numbers actually used during strikes = extremely small number.

Surely they must realise that the savings required for the war that Willie is waging on the cabin crew, cannot be recouped from them alone. If the cabin crew lose this battle, watch Willie roll over all departments and erase their existing contracts and pension rights. What an own goal!

ALL other departments have met their PERMANENT cost savings asked for by WW. Your line about contracts and pension rights is fantasy.

The departments where the volunteers usually work must be stretched to the limit as their colleagues go off flying. And after 23 days of strike action, will that job still be there?

Is this meant to worry people or is it humour?

Walsh's downfall...

You wish.

[The Blu Riband]

So many cabin crew still don't understand the problem.

BA regard them as dysfunctional, expensive, inflexible, and uncooperative. Because that's exactly what they are! Many are not good at the job, indeed some are dreadful.

If they strike again surely Willie will regard the line in the sand to have been - finally - crossed.

This cannot go on.
Bassa are totally impossible to deal with.
If BA is to survive either a new negotiating collective has to be found or BA must simply start again with a set of new faces.

There are some brilliant crew in BA. But they are frequently unable to show their skills or personality for fear of being too "pro BA".
What will happen to them? I don't know; they must speak up now before the lemmings reach the cliff edge.

The bad eggs will never be able to function normally again. Too much bad feeling, and too many bad attitudes. They should go. Some have already left.

[Human Factor]

Reference the quotes on here about the BASSA rep who was sacked but took his pension before leaving.....does anyone know, if BA go bust as a result of this disgraceful behaviour by a small minority of employees (yes, those of us AGAINST you ((as a whole group, not individuals)) far outnumbered any figures that you may dream up for CC supporting strike action) will his pension still be paid/protected....in fact, as a point of order will any of our pensions by protected after this bunch a bandits raid the company for every last penny it has???

In the UK, if a company goes under, pensions are protected in order of "pensions in payment" followed by future pensions. "Pensions in payment" are protected as much as funds allow (ie. you may not necessarily get what you are expecting) and anything left over goes to those who were still contributing at the time of the failure. In theory, the government's Pension Protection Fund will save you up to a point (max. £25k pension payable), however were BA to fail, it would bankrupt the PPF.

With regard to "losing your pension if you are sacked", it is most certainly possible depending upon a contract to have your pension entitlement removed - although it is an extremely rare sanction and not one that I am aware has been or even can be used by BA. In any case, the individual's contributions must be returned even if the pension is not paid.

[giza]

Pension and other stuff

IF BA was to become insolvent, BA pays into the PPF (Pension protection fund) This will protect current pensioners, other staff have there pensions frozen until they reach NRA, they can then expect a maximum of 90% of thier frozen pension upto a maximum of £29,000, however this is not index linked and will reduce each year in real terms by the amout of inflation. A gloomy prospect, so let not let this company face failure.

That is why today our department has agreed to release another 4 colleagues to cabin crew training, many of us wanted to sign up and in the end we draw straws, however it was a a joint decision as those that remain will have to work a lot longer hours to complete the tasks that are left.

Yes, we are stretched to breaking point, but that is better than letting all the previous sacrifices we have made, unpaid work, unpaid holiday, promotion without pay rise, headcount reduction, part time working, go to waste.

Those of us that are not VCC and are working longer hours are still willing to also come in at the weekend on CSP in the WDC or terminals or crew support, I have already booked two weekend days.

There are many depts that feel this way, and that is what makes BA tick, we will not let a few misguided at best, and downright greedy at worst cc destroy our company, and our livelyhoods

Sorry this is a long post, its a bit of a rant, but GRRRRRRRR, dont you feels the same.

[BentleyH]

Giza, it's good to get a post from someone other than crew, to remind us that everything in BA does not just revolve around crew. There are many people in BA who are having to work extra hard behind the scenes to help the airline keep flying not to mention having to placate quite a few angry people out there who can't understand why they are being inconvenienced. It's not all about me, me, me... sadly that is what it looks like when you look at this dispute from a different perspective.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I suspect that WW has done the numbers and in the light of the current disruption is aiming for the 12 weeks mark then will let the radicals go.

Failing a BASSA turn around there is no other option.

[sidtheesexist]

A few thoughts if I may........

It is just ludicrous, the way in which the BASSA hierachy continue to blame FC in general, for the prolonging of this disgraceful dispute. The number of Volunteer FC used thus far, is, I'm reliably informed, minimal. What is just as bad is the fact that so many apparently intelligent CC swallow the propaganda, hook line and sinker. Why do BASSA seek to create division between FC and CC? Somebody please enlighten me.

FC are not an extension of management - many of us have reservations and a degree of scepticism in dealing with BA mgmt.

In case there are people who fail to realise (accept?), many (if not most)of the volunteer CC are from all the other working groups in the company - many indeed are Unite members themselves!!!! Is the penny actually dropping...........

So, now that BA is attempting to restore some rationality to CC's Ts and Cs there is UNJUSTIFIABLE outrage - the mature and honest approach would be to say, ' yep, we've had it too good for too long, we've been lucky, time to face reality and NEGOTIATE the best possible deal for ALL our membership.'

Instead, the spoilt, indulged child spits the dummy out and throws a tantrum. Simplistic ? Perhaps........... if we took a poll of all BA employees right now, how many would go along with the analogy? I suspect a very high percentage. But then I'm a deluded, biased, CC-Hating pilot...

[stormin norman]

From the BBC today

'Both BA and Unite have called for fresh talks, but as yet none have been arranged'

Time for someone to pick up the phone ?

[MrBernoulli]

Time for someone to pick up the phone ?

No point! Woodley clearly wrote that BA could not be trusted. So how do UNITE and BASSA hope to get past that then? BA hold the vast majority of the cards now, and most employees want BA to play the hand to it's ultimate conclusion, and that means the other players losing all their chips. As it should be.

The majority are fed up with being held hostage by the self-serving, foul-mouthed few. Let's get it over with.

[stormin norman]

'Woodley clearly wrote that BA could not be trusted'

I've been listening to Clegg and Cameron spouting the same thing for weeks and the next thing you see is them both stood outside downing street holding hands.

Its takes big men to compromise-have the men at the top got what it takes or is it more dispatch box shouting as Rome burns ?

[Hand Solo]

So when Walsh compromises how would you suggest he sells it to the people who've lodged complaints about harassment? Perhaps "Sorry folks, I know you've received death threats but for the sake of expediency I'm dropping the charges. Would you mind working with your tormentor next week"? Somehow I don't think so. Walsh doesn't need to compromise, he holds all the cards. There's more in it for him, and BA, to see this through to the destruction of BASSA. The Unite leadership can offer him little bar the cost of the forthcoming strikes, and that has to be offset against the prospect of industrial unrest from the cabin crew every year for the foreseeable future.

[JazzyKex]

Stormin Norman - I think that compromise only occurs when both parties actually need the other.

BA is going on to prove that it is capable of functioning (albeit in a reduced capacity) without the striking crew, and if WW latest statement about investigating getting more external crew employed whether temporarily or permanently it seems the strikers could be bypassed in permanence.

The striking crew seem so far not to have realised that BA does need them. The harder they push against what seems to be the entire company they more they marginalise themselves. Also the nearer they get to WW being able to use the law to legally bypass them (SOSR).

Maybe it could even be deemed that as all the original points of disagreement have been reconciled and the current walkout seems to be about staff travel and disciplinaries the original mandate no longer covers it and the next strike is illegal! In this case can they be sacked? Are they still protected by the 12 weeks?

Overall...and back to the original statement...I can't see why Willie will feel the need to compromise further. The pressure on him is more political as I think most employees/shareholders want to see this next episode end in a final solution. There can be no more chance of the company being held to ransom by a minority of the workforce. The cards are all with Willie at the moment and I hope that those crew who have not taken a militant line are not caught up in what seems to be moving towards a very bloody end game.

[Eddy]

I'm confused......

Mr. Holley says that all that's needed for the current offer to be accepted is the full reinstatement of staff travel for those who took part in the strike.

Yet, during the strike, one of the preferred 'chants' was (to the tune of "you cannae shove yer grannie aff the bus") "you can shove your ID90s up your a*se".

Do strikers want staff travel returned or not?

If they care as little about staff travel as the chants seems to suggest, perhaps someone needs to tell the Bassa leadership that the deal is perfectly acceptable even without the staff travel reinstatement.

I'm more inclined to worry about the (potential) horror that is the new redeployment agreement, though.