British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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@ Middy - that was my reading of the position with the City. Which politician sang "Things can only get better"? A curious irony there, with a Labour Government in conflict with Unite. 
@ fruitbat - my local paper advises that FlyBE are making available extra seats all over the place. But then they would, wouldn't they
@ fruitbat - my local paper advises that FlyBE are making available extra seats all over the place. But then they would, wouldn't they
Last edited by Two-Tone-Blue; 15th Mar 2010 at 16:15. Reason: spelung and four-mats
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Add to that the imminent tie-up with Iberia, and the EU having given the nod for a link up with AA, once this issue has been sorted the future for BA is very bright.
The CC need to understand they have ZERO chance of winning this dispute, the more money they cost BA, the worse their eventual deal will be.
The CC need to understand they have ZERO chance of winning this dispute, the more money they cost BA, the worse their eventual deal will be.
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You're right - 15% it is.
http://www.flybe.com/company_informa...&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://www.flybe.com/company_informa...&ct=clnk&gl=us
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WHAT IF.......................
What if: Unite drops strike dates, asks Willie to put offer back on table, Willie agrees, Unite ballots cabin crew, crew accept offer, everyone happy......................SIMPLES!
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Oldflyboy,
But, as WW has already said, you simply cannot play the game of switching BA on and off. WW offered Unite an offer based upon Unite not calling a strike. Unite called a strike. Despite that, WW repeated his offer and Unite turned him down
WW has now pressed the button to commence strike mitigation procedures, including wet leasing aircraft. The meter is now running on costs incurred by the declaration of strike action, and he has stated very clearly that all these costs will be added to the savings required from IFCE. You cannot stop the ball rolling whilst another ballot takes place, only to start the whole process again if the offer is turned down again.
What if: Unite drops strike dates, asks Willie to put offer back on table, Willie agrees, Unite ballots cabin crew, crew accept offer, everyone happy......................SIMPLES
WW has now pressed the button to commence strike mitigation procedures, including wet leasing aircraft. The meter is now running on costs incurred by the declaration of strike action, and he has stated very clearly that all these costs will be added to the savings required from IFCE. You cannot stop the ball rolling whilst another ballot takes place, only to start the whole process again if the offer is turned down again.
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Oldflyboy
Unlikely that management would do that. I imagine that they think that if the union is going to threaten a strike and thus force the company and its passengers into the trouble and expense of making alternative arrangements, its members should feel some pain too (in the shape of lost earnings whilst striking). The union can't have its cake and eat it.
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Answering the points about what the City believes, Robert Peston has his say:
BBC - Peston's Picks: BA: A strike is the least of its worries
BBC - Peston's Picks: BA: A strike is the least of its worries
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fruitbat,
Many thanks.
That link above (BBC - Peston's Picks: BA: A strike is the least of its worries) is a very good short overview of the wider implications and threats facing everyone at BA.
L Met
Many thanks.
That link above (BBC - Peston's Picks: BA: A strike is the least of its worries) is a very good short overview of the wider implications and threats facing everyone at BA.
L Met
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Woodley has just done an interview with BBC News, demanding that BA put the offer back on the table, but completely refusing to answer the question when he was asked whether the union would recommend it to their members.
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Looks fairly well organised on the BA website, further proof that there is going to be only one victor in this battle.
Right now i feel Willy is gonna make an example out of the poor souls caught out on strike on Day 1.
He has so far been something of a pit-bull restrained on a leash. Come Day 1 that leash is gonna be taken off and some BASSA rabbits will be torn to shreds.
Just hope that these rabbits are the hardcore militants not the poor souls mindlessly following the BASSA propaganda. Which one are you?
Right now i feel Willy is gonna make an example out of the poor souls caught out on strike on Day 1.
He has so far been something of a pit-bull restrained on a leash. Come Day 1 that leash is gonna be taken off and some BASSA rabbits will be torn to shreds.
Just hope that these rabbits are the hardcore militants not the poor souls mindlessly following the BASSA propaganda. Which one are you?
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Just read the speech Willie gave to the company at lunchtime today. Powerful stuff and no way is he backing down. Where were Unite all weekend ? Or do they only work 9-5 Monday to Friday and watch on whilst decent hard working folk get more concerned and worried than ever before.
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I, too, have just witnessed Woodley. His body language was tortuous to watch. he spoke in utter rambling contradictions - and he is purportedly a clever bloke. He dismissed Gordon Brown's comments outright. Treason in my book!! UNITE are severly rattled IMHO. Tne BBC then cut to a lablour mp, part of the UNITE parliamentry committe, and was equally weak - likening Walsh to a football manager who would be sacked for acting the way he is - trulyp playground politics and pathetic. UNITE have lost the plot completely. TCGB, for all his faults, will have been expertly briefed on this issue and he 'aint no berk, he's the PM for goodness sake, and chose his words wisely, ie, 'UNITE, get a grip'.
nurj
nurj
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DP
If it wasn't so serious it would be laughable. How can you demand a specific offer be put on the table, and then refuse to say if you will recommend it?!?!?!!? 
Why on earth would WW put anything on the table without any kind of assurance that it was worthwhile.
Hopefully CC are slowly realising the inept representation they have with their current union.
Why on earth would WW put anything on the table without any kind of assurance that it was worthwhile.
Hopefully CC are slowly realising the inept representation they have with their current union.
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Yup, at least Gordon Brown does. Apparently, next up, HM Queen is due to make a statement this evening, post corgi walk. 'Off with their heads'. Well who did you expect after Gordo? This has gone right to the top.
nurj
Well who did you expect after Gordo? This has gone right to the top.nurj
Last edited by nurjio; 15th Mar 2010 at 17:49. Reason: I'm a Royalist.
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Completely illegible word porridge reformatted by your friendly neighbourhood mod.
Please either do your own reformatting next time or refrain from posting.
flapsforty
Moderator
Some Cultish propoganda for you. courtesy of the wife.
Big boys rules. i guess they didint listen about anonymous forums. i know its a bassa email...ooo sue me dahling
What follows is a synopsis of where all the suspended crew are as we speak. It is a shameful, shocking tale of bullying and harassment that is a disgrace in this supposed country of free speech. BA have become a sinister, vicious, aggressive employer who with the aid of a small bunch of pilots have created a regime of terror akin to a tin pot third world dictatorship. All this is done with the express approval of Willie Walsh and Bill Francis, two men who should be utterly ashamed at their thuggish behaviour.
Real people, excellent crew members who up to now have loved their jobs and the company they worked for are now literally too frightened to leave their home. Quite a few are on anti-depressants and some are just in shock. We have to say were it not for the actions of some flight-deck 99% of the below incidents would not have happened - these men are nothing more than cowardly abetters to a sick and discredited management who think threatening employees is the right way to subdue crew and quell dissent. This is not hyperbole - what follows is an actual list of shame for BA.
Remember these are your colleagues and there by the grace of God go most of us. Currently, fourteen cabin crew are suspended for discussing the existence of a list of pilots training as cabin crew, on two private Facebook walls. At no time do they mention any names.
A motorcycle courier was sent to the home of BASSA's Branch Secretary at nine o'clock one night with a forty five page legal document demanding he provide BA with the names of thirty two crew writing under pseudonyms on the BASSA forum. (He declined and always will).
The Preliminary Investigation Team exist specifically to investigate all charges involving Cabin Crew. There is no equivalent in any other department. They have been involved in every single EG901 Disciplinary case. Until now. Uniquely all these cases are being investigated by a separate group of engineering managers.
These managers have in some, but not all cases, variously suggested that crew are not entitled to representation, have encouraged crew to have their preliminary investigation meetings over the telephone, have encouraged crew to have their managers accompany them to their meeting and have ignored the specific instruction of Doctors. They have contacted the crew they are investigating with a frequency unprecedented despite crew stating that they feel bullied and harassed by the level of contact.
One crew member was contacted thirteen times in one day. Most have had similar levels of contact. The speed with which these managers are acting is similarly unprecedented. Crew are being suspended one day and the managers seeking to conduct the PI the next. PIs are being held over the telephone, in person or if the crew member is sick, in their absence and the company, having in all cases found that there is a case to answer, are seeking to hold the hearing within days.
In every case British Airways Health Services occupational therapists have overridden every GP. Despite crew being highly distressed and in some cases hysterical on the telephone, BAHS has passed every single one fit to attend hearings. In one case the occupational health therapist told a GP that it is as though their patient were a burglar and that as such the Doctor was in no position to attempt to interrupt a legal process. Indeed on occupational therapist has used a private interview with a suspended victim to later give evidence against him in his disciplinary.
BA has a clear policy on Bullying and Harassment, EG102. It states that if you feel bullied and harassed you should attempt to resolve the matter informally through discussing it with the alleged bullier. If you feel unable to do this because of the nature of the bullying, you may ask a third person to intervene. If the matter remains unresolved you should raise a grievance with your manager who should investigate. If the matter still remains unresolved the grievance moves into the formal stage and a second, higher level manager is duty bound to investigate the charge, which would involve interviewing the alleged bullier in a formal meeting. If the bullier is found guilty of the charge, they may then be moved accordingly into the EG901 disciplinary process.
This process has not occurred in any single one of these cases. No crew member has been contacted by any individual, third party or manager informally or formally at any time. The company has dispensed with its own policy in its entirety. When the cases move to the hearing stage, the crew member must be given a copy of the entire file including the details of the accusation and all evidence to enable them to prepare a defence. The files currently in the possession of the crew member at this stage contain no original accusation nor the details of any individual or group of individuals who have alleged bullying and harassment and subsequently made a complaint. It must be inferred that BA is either withholding vital information or that no one has actually made a complaint.
On February 2nd and 3rd, Balpa members and reps discuss on their forum that they are happy with the tips pilots have provided them with thus far. They give details of how to copy a social networking page and suggest that this would be particularly useful. They discuss encouraging individuals to make complaints. They state that they hope crew will be made examples of, expressing their hope that BA bypass internal processes and go for instant dismissal. They suggest that were this the case, more pilots might volunteer. They continually express frustration at the length of the processes and wonder whether policies might be rewritten to address this. A well-known BALPA rep, heavily involved in the recruitment of pilots into cabin crew jobs states that on the 3rd of Feb they met with the Head of Industrial Relations and spoke with Willie Walsh. They note that the company machine is ruthless and that Walsh himself approved 'something' that will assist in expiating these investigations. He assures pilots that they can only be frustrated by the length of the internal process because they are not privy to the information he gleaned from his meeting. They talk of BA being happy to deal with trivial legal cases after the fact. They discuss their desire to tie any of this specifically to BASSA and the gratitude that BA has for them and their volunteers.
These are the suspended parties FACEBOOK
* Crew member 1: His facebook page. Several comments re his desire to name and shame list of scab flight crew though he never actually does.
* Crew member 2: Several comments regarding wanting to know the names and gossip regarding one of the flight crew who is never named but whose identity is confirmed as being "the one they both know"
* Crew member 3: One comment: Send me a private msg. Good to know who not to trust x
* Crew member 4: His facebook page: several comments re the fact that he is in possession of the list of flight crew training as cabin crew, how he is in two minds what to do with it but how he will not post it publicly because he knows one of them personally very well.
As of Sunday 6th March: All of the above are suspended.
TEXT MESSAGES
EMAILS
BASSA FORUM
BA FORUM
PAs
TU REPS ·
reformatted by your friendly neighbourhood mod. Please either do your own reformatting next time or refrain from posting.
flapsforty
Moderator
Some Cultish propoganda for you. courtesy of the wife.
Big boys rules. i guess they didint listen about anonymous forums. i know its a bassa email...ooo sue me dahling
What follows is a synopsis of where all the suspended crew are as we speak. It is a shameful, shocking tale of bullying and harassment that is a disgrace in this supposed country of free speech. BA have become a sinister, vicious, aggressive employer who with the aid of a small bunch of pilots have created a regime of terror akin to a tin pot third world dictatorship. All this is done with the express approval of Willie Walsh and Bill Francis, two men who should be utterly ashamed at their thuggish behaviour.
Real people, excellent crew members who up to now have loved their jobs and the company they worked for are now literally too frightened to leave their home. Quite a few are on anti-depressants and some are just in shock. We have to say were it not for the actions of some flight-deck 99% of the below incidents would not have happened - these men are nothing more than cowardly abetters to a sick and discredited management who think threatening employees is the right way to subdue crew and quell dissent. This is not hyperbole - what follows is an actual list of shame for BA.
Remember these are your colleagues and there by the grace of God go most of us. Currently, fourteen cabin crew are suspended for discussing the existence of a list of pilots training as cabin crew, on two private Facebook walls. At no time do they mention any names.
- Three crew are suspended for receiving and forwarding the list to friends through their own private e mails.
- Two crew are suspended for discussing the existence of the list on BASSA's members only forum.
- One crew member having a private conversation with a friend in the foyer of SEP was accosted by a pilot who assumed she was talking about the list of pilots. She was not. She has been suspended.
- One crew member with a perfectly clean record of thirty four years with the company asked a ground staff woman checking her suitcase in, in a light and jovial manner, if she was thinking of training as cabin crew. She has been suspended.
- One cabin crew member expressing her dismay regarding the existence of the graffiti board at Waterside on which was written "cabin crew scum", to a manager has been placed in the disciplinary process.
A motorcycle courier was sent to the home of BASSA's Branch Secretary at nine o'clock one night with a forty five page legal document demanding he provide BA with the names of thirty two crew writing under pseudonyms on the BASSA forum. (He declined and always will).
- Some of the suspended crew were contacted whilst down route, one of whom was told by a manager by email to not think about it and concentrate on looking after the passengers on the way home. When managers couldn't immediately contact some, emergency contacts were telephoned.
- Some were given UK management days on their rosters to be suspended. Some were met by two managers on landing and accompanied from the aircraft, others were marched out of briefings or met by managers when they swiped in for their trips.
- One crew member, unable to come in because she was caring for a seriously ill child was instructed to bring the child with her.
- One pregnant crew member on bed rest in danger of losing her baby was suspended by letter as was another crew member recovering from surgery.
The Preliminary Investigation Team exist specifically to investigate all charges involving Cabin Crew. There is no equivalent in any other department. They have been involved in every single EG901 Disciplinary case. Until now. Uniquely all these cases are being investigated by a separate group of engineering managers.
These managers have in some, but not all cases, variously suggested that crew are not entitled to representation, have encouraged crew to have their preliminary investigation meetings over the telephone, have encouraged crew to have their managers accompany them to their meeting and have ignored the specific instruction of Doctors. They have contacted the crew they are investigating with a frequency unprecedented despite crew stating that they feel bullied and harassed by the level of contact.
One crew member was contacted thirteen times in one day. Most have had similar levels of contact. The speed with which these managers are acting is similarly unprecedented. Crew are being suspended one day and the managers seeking to conduct the PI the next. PIs are being held over the telephone, in person or if the crew member is sick, in their absence and the company, having in all cases found that there is a case to answer, are seeking to hold the hearing within days.
- Several of these crew members have gone sick with stress and depression.
- One has had the police attend their home such is the level of their distress.
- Another has been admitted to an urgent treatment centre due to their mental health.
- One is under the care of a psychiatrist.
- Several have letters from their GPs clearly stating that they are unable to attend a meeting with the company and in some cases should not be contacted at all.
In every case British Airways Health Services occupational therapists have overridden every GP. Despite crew being highly distressed and in some cases hysterical on the telephone, BAHS has passed every single one fit to attend hearings. In one case the occupational health therapist told a GP that it is as though their patient were a burglar and that as such the Doctor was in no position to attempt to interrupt a legal process. Indeed on occupational therapist has used a private interview with a suspended victim to later give evidence against him in his disciplinary.
BA has a clear policy on Bullying and Harassment, EG102. It states that if you feel bullied and harassed you should attempt to resolve the matter informally through discussing it with the alleged bullier. If you feel unable to do this because of the nature of the bullying, you may ask a third person to intervene. If the matter remains unresolved you should raise a grievance with your manager who should investigate. If the matter still remains unresolved the grievance moves into the formal stage and a second, higher level manager is duty bound to investigate the charge, which would involve interviewing the alleged bullier in a formal meeting. If the bullier is found guilty of the charge, they may then be moved accordingly into the EG901 disciplinary process.
This process has not occurred in any single one of these cases. No crew member has been contacted by any individual, third party or manager informally or formally at any time. The company has dispensed with its own policy in its entirety. When the cases move to the hearing stage, the crew member must be given a copy of the entire file including the details of the accusation and all evidence to enable them to prepare a defence. The files currently in the possession of the crew member at this stage contain no original accusation nor the details of any individual or group of individuals who have alleged bullying and harassment and subsequently made a complaint. It must be inferred that BA is either withholding vital information or that no one has actually made a complaint.
On February 2nd and 3rd, Balpa members and reps discuss on their forum that they are happy with the tips pilots have provided them with thus far. They give details of how to copy a social networking page and suggest that this would be particularly useful. They discuss encouraging individuals to make complaints. They state that they hope crew will be made examples of, expressing their hope that BA bypass internal processes and go for instant dismissal. They suggest that were this the case, more pilots might volunteer. They continually express frustration at the length of the processes and wonder whether policies might be rewritten to address this. A well-known BALPA rep, heavily involved in the recruitment of pilots into cabin crew jobs states that on the 3rd of Feb they met with the Head of Industrial Relations and spoke with Willie Walsh. They note that the company machine is ruthless and that Walsh himself approved 'something' that will assist in expiating these investigations. He assures pilots that they can only be frustrated by the length of the internal process because they are not privy to the information he gleaned from his meeting. They talk of BA being happy to deal with trivial legal cases after the fact. They discuss their desire to tie any of this specifically to BASSA and the gratitude that BA has for them and their volunteers.
These are the suspended parties FACEBOOK
* Crew member 1: His facebook page. Several comments re his desire to name and shame list of scab flight crew though he never actually does.
* Crew member 2: Several comments regarding wanting to know the names and gossip regarding one of the flight crew who is never named but whose identity is confirmed as being "the one they both know"
* Crew member 3: One comment: Send me a private msg. Good to know who not to trust x
* Crew member 4: His facebook page: several comments re the fact that he is in possession of the list of flight crew training as cabin crew, how he is in two minds what to do with it but how he will not post it publicly because he knows one of them personally very well.
- * Crew member 5: Asks for the list and says she will pass it on.
- * Crew member 6: One comment: Name and shame, honey, I say!
- * Crew member 7: One comment: Can you private message me please?
- * Crew member 8: One comment: Please forward the sms to me
- * Crew member 9: One comment agreeing with calls to name and shame and adds that she wants all the necks she can get her hands on.
- * Crew member 10: One comment: Name and shame
- * Crew member 11: One comment: suggesting the name be sent to a third party for that party to name and shame.
- * Crew member 12: One comment: saying he would like to know the names and asking to be texted.
- * Crew member 13: One comment saying do not post the names in any chat rooms or forums and to pass the list to BASSA.
- * Crew member 14: One comment asking for the list in a private message.
As of Sunday 6th March: All of the above are suspended.
- Crew member 1 PI was stopped by the rep because the company had failed to follow procedure. It has gone case to answer.
- Crew member 4 PI was held in his absence since he is off sick and has gone case to answer.
- Crew member 13 had a PI which has gone case to answer.
- Crew member 2 PI was abandoned because she was too stressed to continue.
- Crew member 6 has had a PI and as yet has heard no outcome.
- Crew member 14 had a PI and it has now gone case to answer. She was admitted to an urgent treatment centre yesterday feeling suicidal.
- Crew member 12 PI done in his absence and gone case to answer.
- Crew member 8 is pregnant and in danger of losing her baby. She has gone to Australia and is uncontactable.
- Crew member 9 felt pressurised into having her PI over the phone and this has now gone case to answer.
- Crew member 5 is off sick and has not had a PI.
- Crew member 11 is off sick and has been told that his PI will be held in his absence.
- Crew member's 7,5,3 and 10 are off sick and have not had a PI.
TEXT MESSAGES
- * Crew member 15 texted the list of pilots to a friend. He is off sick. The PI was held in his absence and it has gone case to answer.
- * Crew member 16- Received and shared some information via text.
- * Crew member 17- Received and shared some information via text.
EMAILS
- * Crew member 18 received an email containing the list. She forwarded it in error. PI held in her absence. Gone case to answer.
- * Crew member 19 received the list by email and forwarded it. She is off sick recovering from a major operation. Under pressure from The Company she had a PI over the phone and it has gone case to answer.
- * Crew member 20 received the email and forwarded it. She is off sick. PI held in her absence. Case to answer.
BASSA FORUM
- * Crew member 21: Wrote that he was fed up with all that's going on and when he leaves the company, he will blow a slide. He adds LOL HA HA HA!!! Anti-terrorist laws were invoked and anti terror police were called. There was no charge brought. He remains suspended and hasn't yet had his PI.
- * Crew member 22 wrote that he had the list of suspended pilots. His PI was stopped by the rep because BA had failed to follow procedure. He awaits the outcome.
- * Crew member23: Asked on the forum if a particular FO was on the list of pilots training as cabin crew. Awaiting a PI.
BA FORUM
- * Crew member 24: In discussion with two other crew members regarding the dispute. He writes: If you carry on with that claptrap, I will be happy to issue you a rejoinder and calls the management bullies. He remains suspended and is off sick. SPEAKING
- * Crew member 25: Asked a ground staff woman who was checking her case in, in a light hearted manner, are you going to be training as Cabin Crew? Her PI was stopped by the rep because The Company had failed to follow procedure. She awaits the outcome.
- * Crew member 26: Got into an argument with M P (manager) who called her negative when she suggested that the comments made about cabin crew on the graffiti board in Waterside were undermining. She has been placed in 901 for misconduct.
- * Crew member 27: Was discussing the existence of the list with a friend whilst sitting in the foyer of SEP. She was evidently overheard and later tackled by a Captain who had not heard the conversation himself. They got into a heated exchange. She has been suspended and awaits the PI
- * Crew member 28: Got into a conversation with a passenger who was annoyed that the service was taking so long. Guy asked him to bear with the crew since they were not used to working with one less crew member and everything was taking longer than usual. He awaits the outcome of his PI
- * Crew member 29: Allegedly said in a briefing that anyone training as crew were scabs and in relation to a messed up positioning sector, this is a ******* mess, to a DOM. He awaits his PI.
PAs
- * CSDS who allegedly made some comment re working with one less crew member on the PA:
- * Crew member 30
- * Crew member 31
- * Crew member 32
TU REPS ·
- Crew member 33 suspended PI heard in absence
- Crew member 34 suspended for allegedly talking to media