British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[henkybaby]

And we will find out who they are, if they take out flights. The truth will come out in the end, and their time in BA will be a nightmare.

Wow, that is bad. Typical, but bad.

British Airways grounded! | Editorial | Comment is free | The Guardian

The most positive article I could find about the strike. I agree with it in principle. Workers have a right to strike and so do BA cc. It is how you use (or in this case abuse) this right that determines your character.

[wiggy]

fly12345

BASSA still haven't learnt have they? After what came out in court yesterday you would have thought people would have been very careful about what they post on the BASSA site.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Yes but you know, if there are about 12,000 BA members of BASSA and there was n 80% turn out and 92% of the 80% voted yes then that is 75% of the total membership who voted Yes either actual or by acquisence (?). So that is pretty overwhelming. If the law of unintended consequence kicks in now-it is far too late to regret the action for which one now faces the result.
I think those figures are correct?

[IYCSWICSWICW]

..er, the problem with BA winning the injuction hearing today is that it merely postpones the debacle as the UNITE mob have stated that they will re-ballot (without sending papers to retired folk) - taking possible strike action in to the new year when business traffic begins to build-up - death by a thousand cuts springs to mind. An injuction would also validate the battle within the naive minds of the CC lemmings. IMHO, best the injuction is NOT granted, let the strike run on the 22nd, and we go from there. Where to? I haven't a clue, probably the dole queue in Aug next year as BA goes into administration.

GF

[Human Factor]

What was all that about anyway the BASSA six?

Not sure if the LaLaLady is one of them but several BASSA reps have allegedly been suspended following an alleged incident earlier on in the negotiating process when a CC89 rep was threatened with a panning (allegedly).

Allegedly.

Allegedly I wrote allegedly enough.

[Matt101]

Originally Posted by sharksandwich

When a BA air steward responded anonymously in the comments to , I thought it worth highlighting their defence to get your reactions.

I'll give it a go - this will seem fairly negative from me it's not intended to be but lets highlight a few realities. Cabin Crew, generally at BA, work hard and do an excellent job, they were great to work with, friendly, a good laugh and, mostly, focussed on their job. The post below though gives some arguments hat I heard a few times from people who perhaps no longer really enjoy what they do. I read it and tried not to reply but I really had to highlight some aspects of it.

Free speech? I think not.
I risk losing my job if I am identified.

Clearly stated in contract that public statements should not be made except via the PR office - common place in any business.

It was not that long ago that the crew of the BA038 were being praised as heroes for a successful evacuation and saving lives, as without their skill, professionalism and dedication that could have been a very different outcome.

Agreed they did an absolutely fantastic job along with the Flight Crew, ATC at LHR and the emergency services and others involved on the ground at OCIC and in other departments.

My last P60 reflected more in the region of £29,000 (75% contract), full time Max approx. £35,000 (trip dependent).

Don't want to dwell on pay - you signed your contract and deserve the remuneration that goes with it - however these figures don't include un-taxable allowances (as you got them form your P60).

then I feel no one has the right to question what I earn.

Agreed, as I said, your contract.

I'm "expected" to report for my trips at least 1 hour prior to a flight (for which I get no payment), in order to print out all the required paperwork, liaise with the Executive Club, customer services, etc. etc.
It is the same on my return to base when I have to file all the necessary paperwork ..... I leave the Crew Report Centre at T5 several hours after everyone else on the crew has gone home; again unpaid.

As an SCCM at BA my post flight duties rarely if ever extended to "hours". However (like Airport Standby), you are not being paid allowances, you are however paid a basic wage for 2000 hours a year - which you don't hit with Duty time alone so in essence you are "being paid".

This and nights out of bed, not able to sleep,jetlag & missing loved ones' birthdays, parties and family get-togethers - not much of a social life.

That's aviation - and should be expected I am sorry to say.

You seem to think we have the life of luxury, staying in 5 star hotels, having room parties and an easy life of it. I assure you most of us are too shattered by the time we get there to enjoy anything

.

Well I had a fantastic time on my slip - seeing the world is why I did the job.

Could you do a 6-mile walk around a hill 5000' above sea-level 4 times in 6 days? Because that's what we do.

I hope most healthy people could - My Grandmother walked a 4 mile round trip to feed the ducks EVERY day up until she dropped dead.

For those of you who are happy to wait for your service on board, then fine, but please don't then complain & compare us with the likes of Cathay and Singapore airlines who have 18 crew.

The cost base is far less for their crew though and often their economy passenger numbers are far greater.

Also it is hardly a fair to compare us with airlines like Easyjet/Ryanair who offer a completely different product/fare structure.

They are your main competition on short haul now though. BA is far preferable for me but unfortunately your managers will always be comparing profit margins - kinda what they are paid to do.

Do you think we would do this to you and them, unless we were not desperate to make the company get back to the negotiating table? .....
We are scared, if we accept these impositions I assure you they will be back for more, there is no doubt in my mind.

I honestly really think BA would have happily got around the negotiating table before if BASSA had come to them with a sensible alternative. As for your fear of further imposition - I feel for you there, I really do, but fear of future changes is neither a legal or sensible reason to strike.

I ask you, what CEO of a company, in such dire financial circumstances refuses an offer of 60 million savings??

One who wanted £82 million savings.

If i lose my job with BA tomorrow I will be sad, very sad, but I will not go down without a fight...this situation is wrong,

Yes it is! Surely you should be far more worried about keeping your job at all in this tough economic climate.

Honest to god, I feel terrible for you guys and girls, do I think BA is without blame? - absolutely not! A little tact amongst other things would have helped them, but I cannot reconcile myself with the action you are taking Vs. what you are being asked to do, to help keep the company afloat.

I loved my years at BA - I would hate to see it go.

[ottergirl]

Good post Matt101, balanced and fair.

I'd like to pick up on the part about free speech. It clearly states in our contracts that we are not permitted to speak to the press without permission and that to do so could result in disciplinary action. Given the interest in individuals exhibited by todays papers and the journalists approaching forum users, here is a reminder. For serving BA crew, regardless of where you sit in this dispute, be very careful what you say in the public domain.

[TOM100]

Mat101

Great post.....just to add on the non comparison with other airlines as BA product more complex.

Charter carriers work exceptionally hard on shorthaul. Take a Thomson Airways 767-300 with 328Y seats and 8/9 crew on a LGWPMI. They have to do drinks/meals/sales with 'effective cabin service time' of about 60 mins - that's hard work !

[Matt101]

Thanks ottergirl - honestly despite the vote I feel that most people really don't want a strike - I just suppose it was used as a message to the Managers (who are as much to blame as BASSA). But I fear nobody realised the resolve of Unite (especially with its current internal politics) to see through this fight in a very public, visible and perhaps unwise way.

[TopBunk]

Fincastle

I'd appreciate an LHR TAF when one becomes available for tonight/ Friday am. Please PM it. Thanks

Just for you:
TAF EGLL 170501Z 1706/1812 02008KT 9999 SCT030
BECMG 1711/1714 01017G28KT
TEMPO 1717/1812 2000 SHSN BKN008
PROB30 TEMPO 1718/1806 01025G38KT 1200=

[left_to_first_class]

As someone from the outside looking in (I did work for BA few years ago though), Unite better get their PR socks on and fast. I heard from friends last week that BA was going to brief a newspaper about the salaries and lifestyle of a few of the BASSA negotiatiors so was not surprised to see this in the Mail today.

To get the balance right why not an article on the salaries paid to those at Waterside compared to VS - I bet that would embarrass a few. I know for a fact that BA pays more for the equivalent job at VS... just in the interest of getting the balance right.

If the problem is 'macho management' then why not agree to some of the changes in return for WW and some of his macho cronies resigning without payoff? Win-win as far I can see it - now that would be an interesting negotiation tactic.

PS: I ALWAYS feel safe on a BA aircraft knowing that the crew (both flight and cabin) are trained professionals. Not sure if I can say the same about my current outfit here in the sandpit though.

[Desertia]

PS: I ALWAYS feel safe on a BA aircraft knowing that the crew (both flight and cabin) are trained professionals. Not sure if I can say the same about my current outfit here in the sandpit though.

Why's that then?

I've flown GF, EK, EY ETD and QR, and never felt unsafe on any of them. Are you in Yemen? Or perhaps day tripping to Baghdad?

[Da Dog]

Bullying and Intimidation alive and well.......

This quote just been sent to me by a friend............

However on a more sinister note there are one or two crew members who are working alongside BA in this smear campaign. We know who they are and are watching their actions very closely.

You would think that after yesterday in court reps would watch what they say on forums.

This well illustrates what some poor crew have to put up with, veiled threats if they do not tow the party line, any wonder many of them are about to chuck themselves over the proverbial cliff.

[Nutjob]

Papillon

Those of you who intend to work - may I ask what the view is about how many intend to do the same as you? What your gut feeling is about that? Hard to quantify I know, but I'm just wondering if you're representative of the wider group or not.

From a personal perspective I've seen that:

1. Very few crew at LHR dare admit that they won't strike, though the fear on their faces is obvious

2. Of all my many crew friends, only one has said she'll strike and I believe that the she's just starting to realise what she signed up for. She'll try sickies and everything else she can before she strikes but basically can't even talk about it, the stress is so great.

3. Popped in to LGW the other day and crew were openly signing up to BA's ESS request to work and be flexible and come in on days off. Little support for strike and those that do strike at LGW will be very exposed.


Personally, I believe that if the strikers are sacked, BA will be far better off without them. There ARE some amazing crew and most of these recognise that it's been the wrong fight at the wrong time. The strikers I know epitomise everything that's bad about BA crew. The job centre can't come too fast for them. Stop ruining my airline!

[ottergirl]

Matt101, your instincts are right. On eurofleet there is a genuine sense of bemusement has to how it all got here. Yes there are some who feel strongly but most deliberated for a while before voting. Some went with the majority based on the fact that, if they didn't understand it, and the others obviously did, it was best to stick together. It wasn't an easy subject to discuss because of the extreme views held by some. I don't think that most crew really thought they would be out on strike at all, much less for 12 days at Christmas!

As to how many would actually turn up for work? You know as well as I that a fear factor kicks in about crossing a picket line. BA in the past have made it easy for people to get to work in a strike, blacking out the carpark, etc. It would depend on that I guess. Christmas adds more uncertainty because clearly the trips rostered won't be the ones we'd end up doing. Pray that the Judge has more sense than the BA negotiators and Unite put together...............shouldn't be hard!

[ladyxxxx]

Nutjob: Fantastic I agree with you 100% - my husband (ground crew) and a 40year survivor of BA... just has taken part-time with a 50% cut in salary to help the airline he has worked for since he left school at 16.
His view 'sack the lot of them' - I think thats a bit drastic but from his point of view he is sick to the stomach that so many employees have taken cuts, redundancy, part-time etc etc to the point where T5 will have a 1/3rd less staff - so the remaining staff will have to work harder with no increase. I can't actually remember when he did get a salary increase and then I think it was only 1-2% - so stop whingeing CC and get on with your jobs that is what you are paid for.

[Desertia]

Personally, I believe that if the strikers are sacked, BA will be far better off without them. There ARE some amazing crew and most of these recognise that it's been the wrong fight at the wrong time. The strikers I know epitomise everything that's bad about BA crew. The job centre can't come too fast for them. Stop ruining my airline!

The general public agree with you, Nutjob. I hope this is on the cards as a last resort, and not ruled out entirely. It would be my preferred option. The rest of BA don't deserve to have to work with these calloused and selfish people.

On the threats from the big mouths on CF of what will happen to those sensible and incredibly brave (in my opinion) crew who fly in defiance of BASSA: I wouldn't recommend that they try and wreak revenge later, because unless they've had their heads up their colons for the last two days, they might find that the passengers are against them, the clueless halfwits.

I hope our Telegraph correspondent has made a note of these threats from the union militants for use in one of his articles.

[ottergirl]

Ottergirl,

Re Post 5526

If these assertions were true, it would be best said by a disinterested outsider rather than yourself.

RC

Perhaps so RC but it was I who was asked the question so it was I who had to answer it. I have edited it slightly but I stand by what I said.

[demomonkey]

Ottergirl,

As an FO (sadly long since 22yo), I have flown with many young energetic Pursers who deliver a brilliant customer service (showing above and beyond the call) and also many 'time served' CSDs who I consider would struggle to make cheese toasties for one on the ground never mind deal with a complex airbourne issue.

Therefore, using your argument, does the CSD deserve their pay more than the Purser?

(I have also flown with some amazing CSDs too, my point is that how long you have worn the uniform is not necessarily a good indicator of performance)

[ottergirl]

The only difference between a CSD and a Purser on Eurofleet (for I guess that's what you are talking about) has been the level of accountability and the size of the team we manage. I was a Purser myself for many years so I have the badge! I flew around quite happily as a Purser, no-one bothered me, tried to manage me or even knew who I was. I felt that provided I didn't actually murder any customers that wouldn't change. Life as a CSD is rather different. I have an annual review in which to account for my actions, I have Card services phoning me at home to discuss problems my crew are having with their finances, I have seen the inside of hospitals in both ATH and FCO with sick crew, APG have involved me in one of their investigations and thats just crew related. On a customer level if even a one minute delay is put down to me I have to account for it, any comments on the flight received are passed on to my manager and if theres been a problem on the flight it is the Captain and I that get the phone call from BA. The Pursers don't have a job spec at present which has been their problem thus far. I have mentored new Pursers who are working to the framework so I know what their job spec would look like if BA had their way and its very similar to mine but at present they have no accountability.
Does that go any way to explaining it?
And actually cheese toasties are quite tricky