British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Nutjob wrote- "Even if I agreed with BASSA's stance (I don't) there's no way I'd risk my career over these changes. I believe that (in the unlikely event that BASSA's campaign doesn't die a painful death in court) striking will involve a real and present danger of being sacked. Seriously, do CFC and the like get that? You will likely be sacked. You'll lose everything. Ok, that sacking might be deemed illegal by the courts in a year's time, but the payout you'll get will be sparse and you won't be re-instated"
You won't have a career if you agree to New Fleet ! You'll be losing everything anyway if you agree to New Fleet ! Don't you get that ??
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You won't have a career if you agree to New Fleet ! You'll be losing everything anyway if you agree to New Fleet ! Don't you get that ??
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LGW - what's the difference? You say New Fleet means we won't have a career - maybe, maybe not. BF has offered a monthly payment, which if NEGOTIATED (I know huge word) properly could save us from New Fleet. Don't YOU get that? What's the alternative - oh yes- Go on strike, get sacked, or see the company go under. Not much in the way of career prospects there either are there????
This is a Union in turmoil. Have they negotiated on our behalf? No. Have they managed to deflect New Fleet? No, despite knowing about it for the past 18 months. So now this defunct union is literally leading people to self-destruct.
Today, the best they can come up with is to threaten a strike before Christmas.
Apart from sending our losses plummeting further, the only thing that will achieve is to ensure that we are all now rostered to work over christmas. Bravo Unite!! So while Steve Turner et al are sat at home eating turkey - we'll be at work. Bet they didn't warn about that at today's bravado meeting did they?
My only hope now is that the court case on Thursday will lead Unite to financial ruin. I am paying my fees waiting for a ballot so that I can vote NO. And then I will leave the Union. I urge anyone and everyone with an ounce of understanding of the gravity of this situation, to do the same. Nutjob, Nuigini - see you at CRC over Christmas, after we have crossed the picket line.
This is a Union in turmoil. Have they negotiated on our behalf? No. Have they managed to deflect New Fleet? No, despite knowing about it for the past 18 months. So now this defunct union is literally leading people to self-destruct.
Today, the best they can come up with is to threaten a strike before Christmas.
Apart from sending our losses plummeting further, the only thing that will achieve is to ensure that we are all now rostered to work over christmas. Bravo Unite!! So while Steve Turner et al are sat at home eating turkey - we'll be at work. Bet they didn't warn about that at today's bravado meeting did they?My only hope now is that the court case on Thursday will lead Unite to financial ruin. I am paying my fees waiting for a ballot so that I can vote NO. And then I will leave the Union. I urge anyone and everyone with an ounce of understanding of the gravity of this situation, to do the same. Nutjob, Nuigini - see you at CRC over Christmas, after we have crossed the picket line.
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I am paying my fees waiting for a ballot so that I can vote NO. And then I will leave the Union. I urge anyone and everyone with an ounce of understanding of the gravity of this situation, to do the same.
ditto!!
ditto!!
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Hiflyer14 said- "LGW - what's the difference? You say New Fleet means we won't have a career - maybe, maybe not. BF has offered a monthly payment, which if NEGOTIATED (I know huge word) properly could save us from New Fleet. Don't YOU get that? What's the alternative - oh yes- Go on strike, get sacked, or see the company go under. Not much in the way of career prospects there either are there????
This is a Union in turmoil. Have they negotiated on our behalf? No. Have they managed to deflect New Fleet? No, despite knowing about it for the past 18 months. So now this defunct union is literally leading people to self-destruct. "
First point.The company do not want to NEGOTIATE.the union has tried to negotiate fotr the past 9 months.WW and BF have point blankly refused any sort of compromise.They only want it their way.This is why cabin crew have been forced into taking these drastic measures.
Second point.A Union in turmoil ?? Today was the first time in 20 years that both BASSA and CC89 stood shoulder to shoulder for its membership.Over 3000 membver were present at todays meeting.All were in agreement in were we stand.Hardly a Union in turmoil.More like a Union united.
I would like to know why you think is New Fleet would be a good career move for us ?
This is a Union in turmoil. Have they negotiated on our behalf? No. Have they managed to deflect New Fleet? No, despite knowing about it for the past 18 months. So now this defunct union is literally leading people to self-destruct. "
First point.The company do not want to NEGOTIATE.the union has tried to negotiate fotr the past 9 months.WW and BF have point blankly refused any sort of compromise.They only want it their way.This is why cabin crew have been forced into taking these drastic measures.
Second point.A Union in turmoil ?? Today was the first time in 20 years that both BASSA and CC89 stood shoulder to shoulder for its membership.Over 3000 membver were present at todays meeting.All were in agreement in were we stand.Hardly a Union in turmoil.More like a Union united.
I would like to know why you think is New Fleet would be a good career move for us ?
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Apologies to all for misleading you by saying about 2500 cabin crew were at Sandown Park. In fact the figure was: 3250
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First point.The company do not want to NEGOTIATE.the union has tried to negotiate fotr the past 9 months.
Anyway, the deadline for negotiations was June, BASSA steadfastly refused even to look at the accounts which would have showed BAs dire straits.
How does that fact square with your assertion above?
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LGW - you really are living in BASSA Dreamland. You are just spouting the same propaganda BASSA have been feeding you for months, believing every word.
BASSA do not understand the idea of negotiation. You want to understand negotiation - look at what the pilots did. BA said they HAVE to save £Xm, suggested some ways of doing it, discussed it with BALPA, they looked at some financial FACTS, suggested some measures to the pilots, they voted on what they want, signed on the dotted line, sigh of relief - job done. The company got their savings, the pilots got it on their terms. Did they WANT a pay cut and productivity increase, well, no, no one does. Did they have to do it for the greater good for the finances of the company, yes. That is where they act like adults. You are a bunch of children without a clue of what is going. You, and BASSA, have lost sight of exactly why we are doing this in the first place. You just want what's best for yourselves.
Yes, your union is in turmoil, BASSA have begged CC89 for support for the first time in 20 years because THEY ARE DESPERATE
As for New Fleet. The guys at LGW will jump at the chance to fly on better terms than they have now, worldwide, LHR - they will then be replaced at LGW by new entrants... BA have made it clear you don't HAVE to sign up for New Fleet, so you'll be no worse off, financially anyway, because that's all this is about isn't, your own money. You don't realise your crewing levels are going down to those at LGW, they are offer a great service so there's no reason why you can't at LHR - unless you want to be outdone by the minnows at Gatwick..... And as for the CSD actually having to work for their money - don't get me started.... it's the ones with the biggest mouths shouting about it are the laziest, just you remember that...
So what is everyone whinging for? You don't know, BASSA don't know. You cannot come on here and spout your usual BASSA Forum garbage, without substantiating fact or any knowledge of what is actually going on....
grow up and listen to the likes of HiFlyer14 & Fly12345 - they should be your reps Then you wouldn't be in this mess and would have compromised through negotiation months ago....
BASSA do not understand the idea of negotiation. You want to understand negotiation - look at what the pilots did. BA said they HAVE to save £Xm, suggested some ways of doing it, discussed it with BALPA, they looked at some financial FACTS, suggested some measures to the pilots, they voted on what they want, signed on the dotted line, sigh of relief - job done. The company got their savings, the pilots got it on their terms. Did they WANT a pay cut and productivity increase, well, no, no one does. Did they have to do it for the greater good for the finances of the company, yes. That is where they act like adults. You are a bunch of children without a clue of what is going. You, and BASSA, have lost sight of exactly why we are doing this in the first place. You just want what's best for yourselves.
Yes, your union is in turmoil, BASSA have begged CC89 for support for the first time in 20 years because THEY ARE DESPERATE
As for New Fleet. The guys at LGW will jump at the chance to fly on better terms than they have now, worldwide, LHR - they will then be replaced at LGW by new entrants... BA have made it clear you don't HAVE to sign up for New Fleet, so you'll be no worse off, financially anyway, because that's all this is about isn't, your own money. You don't realise your crewing levels are going down to those at LGW, they are offer a great service so there's no reason why you can't at LHR - unless you want to be outdone by the minnows at Gatwick..... And as for the CSD actually having to work for their money - don't get me started.... it's the ones with the biggest mouths shouting about it are the laziest, just you remember that...
So what is everyone whinging for? You don't know, BASSA don't know. You cannot come on here and spout your usual BASSA Forum garbage, without substantiating fact or any knowledge of what is actually going on....
grow up and listen to the likes of HiFlyer14 & Fly12345 - they should be your reps
Then you wouldn't be in this mess and would have compromised through negotiation months ago....
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What I find the saddest is that BASSA and the minions are portraying being force to strike action as a victory against BA?
Surely, as in war, Conflict is the ultimate proof that meaningful diplomacy has failed.
BASSA may crow and clap and cheer as much as they want I, personally, think they are in for a shock as I and many others are prepared to cover other tasks to keep the airline and all those sensible cabin crew flying.
BASSA have FAILED their membership by leading them into the position that BA want them. Where BA can sue the union and destroy it for good.
Seeing those things coming and avoiding them whilst protecting the membership is what a Union should be. A 'No' ranting strike touting propaganda machine is what BASSA have.
And no, the travelling public don't like you. ABBA is now in effect due to the intransigence of a Union that failed to negotiate.
Anywhere But BA.
Surely, as in war, Conflict is the ultimate proof that meaningful diplomacy has failed.
BASSA may crow and clap and cheer as much as they want I, personally, think they are in for a shock as I and many others are prepared to cover other tasks to keep the airline and all those sensible cabin crew flying.
BASSA have FAILED their membership by leading them into the position that BA want them. Where BA can sue the union and destroy it for good.
Seeing those things coming and avoiding them whilst protecting the membership is what a Union should be. A 'No' ranting strike touting propaganda machine is what BASSA have.
And no, the travelling public don't like you. ABBA is now in effect due to the intransigence of a Union that failed to negotiate.
Anywhere But BA.
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Public relations
Without a doubt there were two massive own goals scored by this latest Sandown tub thump (arguably three if you looked at some of the attendees!), as Sky News, and Jeff Randall in particular, essentially backed BA's claims that the imposition is the only option.
Firstly, an ex-BA exec who is now described as an "Aviation Industry Expert" spoke to Jeff Randall at length saying how BA could not compete and they simply had to force these changes through in order to try; how cabin crew were no different from the other sections of the business who had been forced to make sacrifices, and therefore were not immune to cuts; and how BA COULD be allowed to go out of business because of the number of competitors that could replace them with a cost effective business model.
Then the absolute icing on the cake, that must have had our BASSA hierarchy (or is it oligarchy?) and tub thumpers quaking with rage - Mr. Ryan himself saying that BA cabin crew were far too expensive and if they kept on their suicidal path and f**ked up the BA holiday season, he'd be ecstatic, because he'd be able to snap up all of their customers.
The only way BA cabin crew can dig themselves out of the hole BASSA has dug for them is to vote a resounding NO to any IA, and if they can do it even earlier, kick out the dinosaurs that have led them up the garden path, and elect some sensible, educated people to work with BA to get the airline out of the mire it's in. And perhaps even work towards a future that engages all employees of the airline, including such things as share options and profit sharing schemes, as opposed to continuing to hold up the filthy lucre-laden trough so that the BASSA nobs can keep slurping at their expense.
However, the damage is probably already done. Joe Public now knows there might be a strike announced on December 14th, so Branson, Ryan, Singapore Airlines, Qantas, American, United, etc., are probably right now employing extra reservation staff to cope with the surge in business. Who knows, maybe they'll need some of the fired strikers to work for a pittance. Now that *would* be ironic.
I'm sorry, BASSA members, but many of you are merely fools. How could you let yourself be sucked into this mess by such a bunch of chumps? In one day, they've singularly managed to portray you as a bunch of self-serving ingrates. It really is time you formed a sensible employees union and got away from the Sparts and the fossils.
Firstly, an ex-BA exec who is now described as an "Aviation Industry Expert" spoke to Jeff Randall at length saying how BA could not compete and they simply had to force these changes through in order to try; how cabin crew were no different from the other sections of the business who had been forced to make sacrifices, and therefore were not immune to cuts; and how BA COULD be allowed to go out of business because of the number of competitors that could replace them with a cost effective business model.
Then the absolute icing on the cake, that must have had our BASSA hierarchy (or is it oligarchy?) and tub thumpers quaking with rage - Mr. Ryan himself saying that BA cabin crew were far too expensive and if they kept on their suicidal path and f**ked up the BA holiday season, he'd be ecstatic, because he'd be able to snap up all of their customers.
The only way BA cabin crew can dig themselves out of the hole BASSA has dug for them is to vote a resounding NO to any IA, and if they can do it even earlier, kick out the dinosaurs that have led them up the garden path, and elect some sensible, educated people to work with BA to get the airline out of the mire it's in. And perhaps even work towards a future that engages all employees of the airline, including such things as share options and profit sharing schemes, as opposed to continuing to hold up the filthy lucre-laden trough so that the BASSA nobs can keep slurping at their expense.
However, the damage is probably already done. Joe Public now knows there might be a strike announced on December 14th, so Branson, Ryan, Singapore Airlines, Qantas, American, United, etc., are probably right now employing extra reservation staff to cope with the surge in business. Who knows, maybe they'll need some of the fired strikers to work for a pittance. Now that *would* be ironic.
I'm sorry, BASSA members, but many of you are merely fools. How could you let yourself be sucked into this mess by such a bunch of chumps? In one day, they've singularly managed to portray you as a bunch of self-serving ingrates. It really is time you formed a sensible employees union and got away from the Sparts and the fossils.
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Big Brutha,
Whilst I feel that many on here agree with your sentiments the damage has already been done.
The time frame leading up to this ridiculous decision will come out. Don't forget that BALPA were forced to produce ALL e-mail transmissions and in many cases the transcripts of Forum messages as well.
I would love to be a fly on the wall when the BASSA forum or the Crew Forum messages get read out in court!
BA will now, I assume, go for damage limitation by seeking an injunction against any strike action that might be planned. If they succeed in such an action then the way is open to attacking Unite as an organisation by suing for loss of potential earnings.
If Unite don't have a watertight case for calling the strike, based upon hard facts not future conjecture, then they are lining themselves up for a huge bill at the end of the court action. This has already been proven in the High Court!
Whilst strike action by Unions to protect the interests of their membership is fundamental to the workings of such a large organisation those Unions MUST be aware that sensible negotiations also play their part. Judging by the communications over the past 10 months, the ability of almost every other Union to reach agreement and the inability of BASSA to even turn up I think I know which side I would bet on! Before calling 'Strike' the Union must ensure that ALL avenues have been explored and all meaningful dialogue exhausted. This does not mean storm out of meetings when the company want to start discussing a different topic first!
BASSA MUST be doing something wrong if they are the only ones left standing at the end of a massive campaign by ALL staff to rationalise working agreements to keep the company alive into the future. Instead they see it as weakness of other groups to accept change is necessary, something they themselves have failed to grasp since their inception as a group. Hence the disproportionate drop they are getting now.
Wake up BASSA, you have pulled the trigger in the Russian Roulette game too many times.
Whilst I feel that many on here agree with your sentiments the damage has already been done.
The time frame leading up to this ridiculous decision will come out. Don't forget that BALPA were forced to produce ALL e-mail transmissions and in many cases the transcripts of Forum messages as well.
I would love to be a fly on the wall when the BASSA forum or the Crew Forum messages get read out in court!
BA will now, I assume, go for damage limitation by seeking an injunction against any strike action that might be planned. If they succeed in such an action then the way is open to attacking Unite as an organisation by suing for loss of potential earnings.
If Unite don't have a watertight case for calling the strike, based upon hard facts not future conjecture, then they are lining themselves up for a huge bill at the end of the court action. This has already been proven in the High Court!
Whilst strike action by Unions to protect the interests of their membership is fundamental to the workings of such a large organisation those Unions MUST be aware that sensible negotiations also play their part. Judging by the communications over the past 10 months, the ability of almost every other Union to reach agreement and the inability of BASSA to even turn up I think I know which side I would bet on! Before calling 'Strike' the Union must ensure that ALL avenues have been explored and all meaningful dialogue exhausted. This does not mean storm out of meetings when the company want to start discussing a different topic first!
BASSA MUST be doing something wrong if they are the only ones left standing at the end of a massive campaign by ALL staff to rationalise working agreements to keep the company alive into the future. Instead they see it as weakness of other groups to accept change is necessary, something they themselves have failed to grasp since their inception as a group. Hence the disproportionate drop they are getting now.
Wake up BASSA, you have pulled the trigger in the Russian Roulette game too many times.
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I would like to know why you think is New Fleet would be a good career move for us ?
1.NEGOTIATE NEGOTIATE NEGOTIATE hard on the monthly payment and give current crew some security so that routes won't be wittled away from us.
or (the UNITE option)
2. Dig your heels in, say no and strike. If you think that WW won't sack people who strike, or that this company is immune to bankruptcy then you are gravely mistaken. Pan Am, Woolworths, Lehman Bros, Northern Rock, to name but a few.
Either option is not great. But no.1 gives a fighting chance to hang on to our jobs, and the lifestyle that it affords us (time off, above average salary, cheap holidays, etc.) No.2 will send us to the dole queue, do not think it won't.
Now I'd like to ask you why you think striking would be a good career move for us and exactly what you hope to achieve?
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I see that all crew are advised to "work normally" and not kick up a fuss on and after Nov 16th (the day the new crew complements come into play).
If crew work for long enough under the new arrangements they will be deemed to have accepted them. (or does the calling of a strike ballot invalidate that argument, counting as a protest against the new terms?)
If crew work for long enough under the new arrangements they will be deemed to have accepted them. (or does the calling of a strike ballot invalidate that argument, counting as a protest against the new terms?)
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conspiracy theory anyone?
The inability of the union to do a deal with BA (real reason,fear of looking weak and ineffective to members?) in such economically troubled times,and then to call a strike at such an emotive time (curiously i'm not sure that it is a particularly high yeild time,just busy) ,it does make you wonder if the reps who are leading their members to the edge have taken leave of their senses .
What do we need to see in the media to make folk understand that our economy is in deep doo doo? Anyone noticed the GBP weakness,and all the printing going on?(sorry,i meant quantitive easing) ,or are the allowances just feeling really great at the moment?
We have a government on it's last legs ,shooting up the economy with more and more economic adrenaline shots(which future generations will pay dearly for) to try to keep things looking normal until May elections 2010 .Virgin are letting nearly 25% (stand to be corrected) of their pilots go ....25%!!!! And all BA want is 1 less crewmember on the flights................what the.......?
Collectively ,stop reading hello and read about the economy(gross generalisation,those that take an interest in the economy,please don't take offense!) ,we are in a bad way and we will need to adjust .Willy probably is a hard nosed guy,he needs to be ,just like an army general will need to be .If it was not him doing this ,it would be someone else ,so don't personalise all this ,it's not important who the CEO is,the position we are now in is real.
In a way ,a really tough decision now is to either vote sensibly ,or contact the unoin to express your views .We need a very good union to deal with BA......
The inability of the union to do a deal with BA (real reason,fear of looking weak and ineffective to members?) in such economically troubled times,and then to call a strike at such an emotive time (curiously i'm not sure that it is a particularly high yeild time,just busy) ,it does make you wonder if the reps who are leading their members to the edge have taken leave of their senses .
What do we need to see in the media to make folk understand that our economy is in deep doo doo? Anyone noticed the GBP weakness,and all the printing going on?(sorry,i meant quantitive easing) ,or are the allowances just feeling really great at the moment?
We have a government on it's last legs ,shooting up the economy with more and more economic adrenaline shots(which future generations will pay dearly for) to try to keep things looking normal until May elections 2010 .Virgin are letting nearly 25% (stand to be corrected) of their pilots go ....25%!!!! And all BA want is 1 less crewmember on the flights................what the.......?
Collectively ,stop reading hello and read about the economy(gross generalisation,those that take an interest in the economy,please don't take offense!) ,we are in a bad way and we will need to adjust .Willy probably is a hard nosed guy,he needs to be ,just like an army general will need to be .If it was not him doing this ,it would be someone else ,so don't personalise all this ,it's not important who the CEO is,the position we are now in is real.
In a way ,a really tough decision now is to either vote sensibly ,or contact the unoin to express your views .We need a very good union to deal with BA......
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Presumably with 2000 redundancies required due to the grounding of 15 aircraft and the fact that VR for the 1000 and part time for the 3000+ would no longer be available ,then if a strike ballot is succesful I wouldn`t like to be in the first 2000 who are supposed to go to work and go on strike.And phoning in sick I don`t think would work.They are ready for that one.This is all becoming very high risk when the chance of being sacked is 15% and could rise if more planes are grounded and routes cancelled due to the strike.
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If crew work for long enough under the new arrangements they will be deemed to have accepted them. (or does the calling of a strike ballot invalidate that argument, counting as a protest against the new terms?)
Having recently left BA myself on VR, I am an example of a "well-qualified" person, who was fortunate to find work immediately BUT I regret it every day. I earn considerably less than my BA salary (which wasn't huge in the first place!), am micro-managed throughout my working week, have little or no opportunities for promotion or even variety of tasks, and have no opportunities for overtime payments, no fringe benefits, and work more hours a week. The "real world" is not a pleasant place to be in. I would urge those who feel that there should be no changes to take a look outside. You won't like what you see, you certainly wouldn't like what you'd earn and as for terms and conditions, forget it, even with a significant reduction in your salary/terms and conditions, BA will still be a better place to work than most.
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Bassa are leaving Willie no choice.
He will have to impose new conditions.
Then , in the event of a strike, he will be obliged to sack all strikers.
He may not even have to pay out under SOSR - but even if he does have to compensate for unfair dismissal it will be small change compared to the only 2 other alternatives.
1. BA goes bust very quickly
2. BA goes bust in a few years due to still being uncompeteive due high crew costs.
He will have to impose new conditions.
Then , in the event of a strike, he will be obliged to sack all strikers.
He may not even have to pay out under SOSR - but even if he does have to compensate for unfair dismissal it will be small change compared to the only 2 other alternatives.
1. BA goes bust very quickly
2. BA goes bust in a few years due to still being uncompeteive due high crew costs.
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For the sake of the cabin crew, let's hope Unite know what they're doing as they've just bet their union on a favourable outcome. Unite are not in a good financial position which means this is essentially a do or die action. If they lose in court on Thursday, they will be paying BA's legal expenses and will open themselves up to counter claims from BA for any losses incurred.
As a note of correction to BASSA's solicitor, you most definitely can be sacked for taking part in a legal strike. It is correct to say that any dismissal would be illegal but there is no right to reinstatement and the level of compensation is limited.
Ask yourselves two questions and think carefully about the answers.
If BASSA's solicitors know that you can be sacked, why are they not telling you of this risk?
If BASSA's solicitors do not know that you can be sacked, how can you rely that any other legal advice they may give is accurate?
As a note of correction to BASSA's solicitor, you most definitely can be sacked for taking part in a legal strike. It is correct to say that any dismissal would be illegal but there is no right to reinstatement and the level of compensation is limited.
Ask yourselves two questions and think carefully about the answers.
If BASSA's solicitors know that you can be sacked, why are they not telling you of this risk?
If BASSA's solicitors do not know that you can be sacked, how can you rely that any other legal advice they may give is accurate?
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For the sake of clarity could someone detail EXACTLY what the new deal is for:
a) Existing staff. (Old Fleet)
and:
b) New Fleet.
so that everyone can see what the fuss is all about once the rhetoric is removed.
Also useful would be whether a new disruption agreement/arrangement is wrapped into either of the above.Ditto the process for agreeing product changes -eg serving hot towels in Traveller Plus.
And finally a full list of all allowances (early checkin, overtime, unpopular destination/trips/block payments/meals taken on aircraft or ground and paid for as well/ LHR turnarounds/light switches broken in rest areas etc) so that this debate is well informed and based on the realities?
a) Existing staff. (Old Fleet)
and:
b) New Fleet.
so that everyone can see what the fuss is all about once the rhetoric is removed.
Also useful would be whether a new disruption agreement/arrangement is wrapped into either of the above.Ditto the process for agreeing product changes -eg serving hot towels in Traveller Plus.
And finally a full list of all allowances (early checkin, overtime, unpopular destination/trips/block payments/meals taken on aircraft or ground and paid for as well/ LHR turnarounds/light switches broken in rest areas etc) so that this debate is well informed and based on the realities?