BA and Project Columbus III
Stallpusher, your postings are verging on schizophrenic. One moment you state:
and then 12 minutes later:
Make up your mind! The use of the phrase 'no doubt' is an admission that this was (is) common practise. 
Not that long, surely? It was only a few months ago that I saw a CSD ripping up completed GPMs, before they had the facility to seal them! And a completed GPM, from a passenger who a CSD or crewmember has had 'issues' with, can still easily find its way into a bin or shredder, sealed or not!
Why do people here pontificate about things they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about?
On the inside of the four page A4 GPM forms, there is a tear off sticky strip so that it can be closed and the comments enclosed remain private. Virtually all GPMs handed back are stuck together.
On the inside of the four page A4 GPM forms, there is a tear off sticky strip so that it can be closed and the comments enclosed remain private. Virtually all GPMs handed back are stuck together.
There is no doubt that some twit a**e licking CSD's did chuck out bad GPM forms in the past
For a long time now the forms can be sealed by the passenger.
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And I'm sorry, but I can't let
go unchallenged.
It is precisely because so many of us DO know what we are talking about that we are happy to challenge the assertions of BASSA. Many of us have worked for other airlines, both in the uk and abroad, in both charter, scheduled and freight. We KNOW how cushy life is for cc in BA and we KNOW that service standards are just as high with other operators.
Any cc in BA who have worked for other airlines will confirm this. A recent quote, here on Pprune, was that working full time in BA was akin to "semi-retirement" compared to it's competitors. Far too many cc in BA do not have this comparison to make, and so have been brought up on an unremitting diet of "you are the best, your service is indispensable", a message repeated ad nauseam by both management and union.
Now it is true that, in a service industry, a well motivated customer contact workforce is a big asset. But such considerations have to be tempered by a morsel of economic awareness, and this is where BASSA have let their members down most of all. By refusing to negotiate changes in the past to reflect the changing fortunes of the industry, they have caused a massive disparity to build up over their members pay and conditions relative to others in the same industry, and within the company. As such a massive correction is not only inevitable, but well overdue. The time has now come for that correction.
Why do people here pontificate about things they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about?
It is precisely because so many of us DO know what we are talking about that we are happy to challenge the assertions of BASSA. Many of us have worked for other airlines, both in the uk and abroad, in both charter, scheduled and freight. We KNOW how cushy life is for cc in BA and we KNOW that service standards are just as high with other operators.
Any cc in BA who have worked for other airlines will confirm this. A recent quote, here on Pprune, was that working full time in BA was akin to "semi-retirement" compared to it's competitors. Far too many cc in BA do not have this comparison to make, and so have been brought up on an unremitting diet of "you are the best, your service is indispensable", a message repeated ad nauseam by both management and union.
Now it is true that, in a service industry, a well motivated customer contact workforce is a big asset. But such considerations have to be tempered by a morsel of economic awareness, and this is where BASSA have let their members down most of all. By refusing to negotiate changes in the past to reflect the changing fortunes of the industry, they have caused a massive disparity to build up over their members pay and conditions relative to others in the same industry, and within the company. As such a massive correction is not only inevitable, but well overdue. The time has now come for that correction.
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Having read many posts I have read with intrigue as to what is happening - i was once BA crew at the "Golden Runway" that is LHR. I used to be amazed at how much i would earn for what i thought was very little work...i loved the job but i saw things were changing and decided to jump before it got too bad. I used to commute fro a few months from Auckland and the service with BA was sometimes disgusting - very short, rude crew who would rush just to get to the bunks. It was sometimes an embarrassment - people have a choice and i for one have found crews better with other airlines who o seem to care. Now there are great crew with BA who are up there with other airlines. However, any business has to compete and at the moment they are suffering and saying that you would rather see the company go bust than change terms and conditions is just ridiculous. Now i know that some of the statements from Mr Walsh may be over exaggerated but with PWC looking at the accounts for the pilots and leading to the pilots making a deal would suggest that the company does need to change. I have read that there is some "clever accounting" being done to reflect a huge loss - rubbish. All accounts are audited and an auditor has to review the accounts and agree that thery are a true reflection of the position of the company. BA is answerable to it's shareholders and will back the board to make changes - that is a fact.
As for BASSA - i left bassa following the last 96.1% strike threat...what was achieved? nothing - they blinked and backed down - why not negotiate before it is too late. I have many good friends that have a lot to lose and would hate to see them suffer - i really would but the stance and the propoganda that BASSA produce does not give people the chance to make an informed decision...unions have their place but BASSA has been weekened and i am afraid are in for a shock. At the moment BA could afford to have a strike - people have mortgages, credit card and bills to pay - how long will they be on the picket line? maybe a mass bout of sickness or swine flu with a few days at home!! I would support the union whole heartedly if it was a legitimate fight but what will the argument be - we will see. Good luck to all of those out there that may suffer - i hope the unions back down and if not other airlines will be rubbing their hands to pick up the pieces.
As for GPM's i remember many a CSD and Purser on short haul cherry picking the good ones and binning the others.
I will leave my long post but i will await for some to pick it to pieces and wait for the "you don't know what you're talking about" routine.
As for BASSA - i left bassa following the last 96.1% strike threat...what was achieved? nothing - they blinked and backed down - why not negotiate before it is too late. I have many good friends that have a lot to lose and would hate to see them suffer - i really would but the stance and the propoganda that BASSA produce does not give people the chance to make an informed decision...unions have their place but BASSA has been weekened and i am afraid are in for a shock. At the moment BA could afford to have a strike - people have mortgages, credit card and bills to pay - how long will they be on the picket line? maybe a mass bout of sickness or swine flu with a few days at home!! I would support the union whole heartedly if it was a legitimate fight but what will the argument be - we will see. Good luck to all of those out there that may suffer - i hope the unions back down and if not other airlines will be rubbing their hands to pick up the pieces.
As for GPM's i remember many a CSD and Purser on short haul cherry picking the good ones and binning the others.
I will leave my long post but i will await for some to pick it to pieces and wait for the "you don't know what you're talking about" routine.
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A brainwave.....
In fact it has just occurred to me! As BASSA are so impressed with BALPAs negotiating skills, why don't BALPA open a Cabin Crew sub-branch, and let them be represented directly? I suspect they would get rather better value for money!
BALPA brokered the pensions deal on behalf of pilots and CC and now it looks like BASSA have just used BALPA's negotiations again so perhaps BALPA is already, indirectly, representing the CC!
I would add that LGW crew are an absolute pleasure to work with. Professional, friendly and good fun too without any bitterness or malice.
I would add that LGW crew are an absolute pleasure to work with. Professional, friendly and good fun too without any bitterness or malice.
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Interesting to see that a forum member has raised the question about the "Fixed Monthly Duty Payment" and how much it would be but is being completely ignored by the Chairman of BASSA. Very professional!
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The "fixed monthly duty payment" if negotiated well 
could be to our benefit. We are always complaining about "losing money when we take leave, go sick etc" and this would compensate for that. Would also help with pension etc.
BASSA have simply put forward their own (Senior Stewards) agenda, with little regard for anyone else. There is a lot that could be done with the BA proposal - but it would take intelligence, level-headedness and negotiating skills which appear in short supply at the minute.
So yes, perhaps we should procure the services of BALPA. Best idea so far and we would have absolutely nothing to lose.
Any BALPA reps interested? I would happily and am sure there's a few others on here that could be the CC reps under your umbrella.
could be to our benefit. We are always complaining about "losing money when we take leave, go sick etc" and this would compensate for that. Would also help with pension etc.BASSA have simply put forward their own (Senior Stewards) agenda, with little regard for anyone else. There is a lot that could be done with the BA proposal - but it would take intelligence, level-headedness and negotiating skills which appear in short supply at the minute.
So yes, perhaps we should procure the services of BALPA. Best idea so far and we would have absolutely nothing to lose.
Any BALPA reps interested? I would happily and am sure there's a few others on here that could be the CC reps under your umbrella.
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Originally Posted by Stall Pusher
Why do people here pontificate about things they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about?
On the inside of the four page A4 GPM forms, there is a tear off sticky strip so that it can be closed and the comments enclosed remain private. Virtually all GPMs handed back are stuck together.
Why do people here pontificate about things they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about?
On the inside of the four page A4 GPM forms, there is a tear off sticky strip so that it can be closed and the comments enclosed remain private. Virtually all GPMs handed back are stuck together.
Originally Posted by Stall Pusher
The reason why Heathrow based crews score higher is because there is not the turnover of staff as there is at LGW. Crews are more experienced and professional. Reducing crew compliments will prove the point that the service onboard will be dumbed down to Gatwick satisfaction levels.
The reason why Heathrow based crews score higher is because there is not the turnover of staff as there is at LGW. Crews are more experienced and professional. Reducing crew compliments will prove the point that the service onboard will be dumbed down to Gatwick satisfaction levels.
From the BASSA proposal
On the 777 3 class aircraft at LGW swap a purser for a main crew member, subject to training and flying experience. (last night this said in line with LHR but I am glad they have edited this to reflect that being untrue)
On the 777 3 class aircraft at LGW swap a purser for a main crew member, subject to training and flying experience. (last night this said in line with LHR but I am glad they have edited this to reflect that being untrue)
The more I read the more I am stunned by BASSA's stance. The trouble is the only victims will be the staff many of whom are good friends and I really worry about in these hard times.
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Totally agree with high flyer that a simple fixed payment could be beneficial for crew. It would stop the feast/ famine with salary and crew would get paid similar each month.
If i was bassa I'd be strongly negotiating for bidding on ww - the reason BA`never vagreed to it in the past was cos the allowance structure would lead to everyone bidding for the same work. If BA is going down the simple payment route, BASSA can now make a strong argument for work/ life balance and choice for crew.
or have BASSA left it too late to negotiate as time is running out?
Also i have to say that all my recent flight from gatwick have been great, i love the enthusiasm and attitude of the crews there.
If i was bassa I'd be strongly negotiating for bidding on ww - the reason BA`never vagreed to it in the past was cos the allowance structure would lead to everyone bidding for the same work. If BA is going down the simple payment route, BASSA can now make a strong argument for work/ life balance and choice for crew.
or have BASSA left it too late to negotiate as time is running out?
Also i have to say that all my recent flight from gatwick have been great, i love the enthusiasm and attitude of the crews there.
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It could be beneficial and would also stop crew not showing up for certain flights because they are "charity trips" and not worth coming in to work for. Crew "not doing Indians" because they're not worth anything or the LAD (5 no show's on my last trip there a couple of weeks ago - coincidence?). BA will never agree to bidding system under excisting terms and conditions.
VS does it and also allows crew to swap trips online as long as they are keeping an eye on their 900 hours. If they are out of hours after six months for swapping to far too many longer trips it's their own fault. LH also does it but they are also on different terms and conditions.
VS does it and also allows crew to swap trips online as long as they are keeping an eye on their 900 hours. If they are out of hours after six months for swapping to far too many longer trips it's their own fault. LH also does it but they are also on different terms and conditions.
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Having looked superficially at the BA proposal, I feel that there is quite a lot in there that could be worked to our advantage.
Reduction in Crew Complements.
Can't really complain. Yes we will work harder, but under today's climate that is the least we can expect. By agreeing to reduce crew, we give BA a large part of what they want, and in return it gives us some negotiating power (ie. Fixed monthly duty payment).
Increase in ground based productivity at base and downroute.
Contrary to popular opinion on other forums, I don't think this means working on checkin.
The proposals could be tweaked so that we work longer days, in exchange for keeping days off (aka the Pilots!)
Disruption Agreement
No real hardship there so should be agreed.
A separate mixed fleet heathrow
The sticking point. However I have strong suspicions that this could be a bluff by the company. Give them the other stuff, they may forego New Fleet - it's already dwindled to only 500 starters.
UNITE Proposal
We will have to concede the payfreeze (as we offered it up!) and it will have to be permanent. Loans just aren't on the agenda.
Fixed Monthly Duty Payment
This has been written in the Package side of the deal, so the company have to offer it as a benefit. Huge negotiating tool - give them the crew complement and wack this up as high as possible.
All in all, I think there could be a win-win deal in there. The BASSA counter-proposal that simply introduces MORE factors into the equation is ridiculous.
Discuss....
Reduction in Crew Complements.
Can't really complain. Yes we will work harder, but under today's climate that is the least we can expect. By agreeing to reduce crew, we give BA a large part of what they want, and in return it gives us some negotiating power (ie. Fixed monthly duty payment).
Increase in ground based productivity at base and downroute.
Contrary to popular opinion on other forums, I don't think this means working on checkin.
The proposals could be tweaked so that we work longer days, in exchange for keeping days off (aka the Pilots!)
Disruption Agreement
No real hardship there so should be agreed.
A separate mixed fleet heathrow
The sticking point. However I have strong suspicions that this could be a bluff by the company. Give them the other stuff, they may forego New Fleet - it's already dwindled to only 500 starters.
UNITE Proposal
We will have to concede the payfreeze (as we offered it up!) and it will have to be permanent. Loans just aren't on the agenda.
Fixed Monthly Duty Payment
This has been written in the Package side of the deal, so the company have to offer it as a benefit. Huge negotiating tool - give them the crew complement and wack this up as high as possible.
All in all, I think there could be a win-win deal in there. The BASSA counter-proposal that simply introduces MORE factors into the equation is ridiculous.
Discuss....
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I suspect they'd have been better off going through the BA proposal and saying what they dont like and why they dont like it. BA could then chuck some sweeteners in and start sensible negotiations re the new payment, which as you say needn't be a disaster. After all, with flexibility in MBTs and no premium trips BASSA could easily then say, well how about you give us a bidding system and then we'll think about it. Of course the new payment also means new fleet is not nearly such a threat with no premium trips to pinch.
Just coming out with uncosted polar opposites is never going to work. Whatever the final solution I suspect it will be an amended BA proposal rather than an amended BASSA one. Accept that and get negotiating!
Just coming out with uncosted polar opposites is never going to work. Whatever the final solution I suspect it will be an amended BA proposal rather than an amended BASSA one. Accept that and get negotiating!
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Zebedee - BASSA have given no statistical evidence of anything. Wouldn't that require a GCSE in maths?
So, let's take a look at their Senior Stewards (CSD) Protection Scheme - oops sorry BASSA Proposals.
Pay
Offered 2.61% pay cut (where have we heard that before?)
CSDs/Seniors can live with that so it's ok. Stuff the rest of us.
Productivity WW
Disruption Agreement - held autonomy on that, so no change there.
Back to Back - throw this one in because it will generate MORE allowances
Supervisory Reduction - Premium cabin purser introduced - presumably at a cost?
(Omitted CSDs actually working - phew got out of that then!)
Productivity SFG
Let them take the hit at LGW by losing a purser
Productivity EF
Send 767 to EF (WW hate it anyway and it'll be gone soon)
Single supervisor - doesn't benefit Pursers, but helps out poor CSDs who are struggling for work.
Productivity Cross Fleet
VR in seniority order - to help yes you guessed it
VR Max of 75 weeks - to benefit who? Oh yes Seniors
LTIP
Well we have no idea about how a share incentive scheme would work, but we'll throw this vague sentence in in the hope that we get a deal that will benefit...yes those seniors again.
There is no financial breakdown, and if we build in cost for B2B and Premium Pursers, I fail to see how it can get anywhere near the required amount.
However the one thing that BASSA can do is wind up the members - they have raised the call to arms on other forums and now they are flocking in their droves to post on ESS what a great proposal it is. Can they read? Do they not speak English? Can they not see the writing on the wall? What they should be asking is what's in it for Joe Main Crew member - answer zilch.
It is like something out of a movie about 3rd world dictators - except this is our living nightmare and our livelihoods depend on it.
Oh, and one finally point. Whatever happened to "Temporary solutions for Temporary Problems". What a waste of
stickers.
So, let's take a look at their Senior Stewards (CSD) Protection Scheme - oops sorry BASSA Proposals.
Pay
Offered 2.61% pay cut (where have we heard that before?)
CSDs/Seniors can live with that so it's ok. Stuff the rest of us.
Productivity WW
Disruption Agreement - held autonomy on that, so no change there.
Back to Back - throw this one in because it will generate MORE allowances
Supervisory Reduction - Premium cabin purser introduced - presumably at a cost?
(Omitted CSDs actually working - phew got out of that then!)
Productivity SFG
Let them take the hit at LGW by losing a purser
Productivity EF
Send 767 to EF (WW hate it anyway and it'll be gone soon)
Single supervisor - doesn't benefit Pursers, but helps out poor CSDs who are struggling for work.
Productivity Cross Fleet
VR in seniority order - to help yes you guessed it
VR Max of 75 weeks - to benefit who? Oh yes Seniors
LTIP
Well we have no idea about how a share incentive scheme would work, but we'll throw this vague sentence in in the hope that we get a deal that will benefit...yes those seniors again.
There is no financial breakdown, and if we build in cost for B2B and Premium Pursers, I fail to see how it can get anywhere near the required amount.
However the one thing that BASSA can do is wind up the members - they have raised the call to arms on other forums and now they are flocking in their droves to post on ESS what a great proposal it is. Can they read? Do they not speak English? Can they not see the writing on the wall? What they should be asking is what's in it for Joe Main Crew member - answer zilch.
It is like something out of a movie about 3rd world dictators - except this is our living nightmare and our livelihoods depend on it.
Oh, and one finally point. Whatever happened to "Temporary solutions for Temporary Problems". What a waste of
stickers.
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of course the new payment also means new fleet is not nearly such a threat with no premium trips to pinch.
Last edited by Matt101; 27th Jun 2009 at 18:30. Reason: the o
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Middle Eastern B2B's must be one of the laughable suggestions ever. How are they supposed to save money by introducing additional ones when they are actually rostering fewer of B2B'S because they are expensive and not as effective as they once were?
B2B's to the Middle East would be with current B2B payment in addition to DOA, UK allowances, LHR accommodation and 4 MBTR. How much would it save the company as opposed to roster them two separate trips to the Middle East?
A 6 day B2B with 4 MBTR is 9 days in total. Some B2B's would probably be 7 days as some trips to JED and RUH are 4 days.
Two separate 3 day trips with 3 MBTR is 10 days in total.
With two separate trips they wouldn't have to pay B2B payment, allowances for UK (or DOA) or provide accommodation in LHR.
What am I missing?
B2B's to the Middle East would be with current B2B payment in addition to DOA, UK allowances, LHR accommodation and 4 MBTR. How much would it save the company as opposed to roster them two separate trips to the Middle East?
A 6 day B2B with 4 MBTR is 9 days in total. Some B2B's would probably be 7 days as some trips to JED and RUH are 4 days.
Two separate 3 day trips with 3 MBTR is 10 days in total.
With two separate trips they wouldn't have to pay B2B payment, allowances for UK (or DOA) or provide accommodation in LHR.
What am I missing?
Last edited by nuigini; 27th Jun 2009 at 19:14.
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What am I missing?
They even added this nonsense paragraph to waste even more space.
Any new destination within the global linear marks, known as longitude and latitude within the marks known as 40 degrees East - 20 degrees North, shall be subject to negotiation and agreement, before being included as an allowable back to back destination.
Its just laughable.
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But not as bad as
The Branch chairman ensuring customer focus.... I had to check my diary to see it wasnt April 1st. Note to BASSA leadership, you dont run the airline. Willy does.
And whats the Director of Customer?
This document was put together in the pub on thursday night during the quiz wasnt it? Its the only way it makes sense.
- To ensure a continual customer focus the Director of Customer should liase with the Branch Chairman or convener of the relevant union branch in order to discuss the nature, extent, and time scales of the disruption.
Note to BASSA leadership, you dont run the airline. Willy does. And whats the Director of Customer?
This document was put together in the pub on thursday night during the quiz wasnt it? Its the only way it makes sense.
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Any new destination within the global linear marks, known as longitude and latitude within the marks known as 40 degrees East - 20 degrees North, shall be subject to negotiation and agreement, before being included as an allowable back to back destination.
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To ensure a continual customer focus the Director of Customer should liase with the Branch Chairman or convener of the relevant union branch in order to discuss the nature, extent, and time scales of the disruption.
Any element expressly contained within the disruption agreement may be used, but will be confirmed in writing to each union within 3 hours of its initiation.
Any element expressly contained within the disruption agreement may be used, but will be confirmed in writing to each union within 3 hours of its initiation.