BA and Project Columbus III

[Glamgirl]

I'm still speechless over SP's comments regarding LGW crew. These comments are incredibly rude and I would like an apology. (Not that I'm holding my breath...)

The Bassa proposal is awful. End of story. It's to protect the minority of very senior crew and it should now be blindingly obvious to everyone else.

Sorry to sound annoyed, but seriously, this is bad news

Gg

[TorC]

Classic

There is an all-time classic over on ess:

"Well done to bassa. I don't agree with many of their proposals but i support my union. Roll on the 6th of July, i think it will be an interesting day..."

What?!!!!!!!!

[nuigini]

747-436,

This is nothing new.

Everything has to go through BASSA.

Leaving LHR with one crew down has to be approved. They don't always give its permission. Remember the snow storm earlier this year with all those delays and cancellations. BASSA let some five flights leave LHR with one crew down but kept a DFW bound flight (I think it was DFW) on the ground for hours because they thought enough flights had gone with one crew down.

If WW crew are to operate a EF service they need approval. Vice versa too.

TorC,

Do you think that's shocking? If you have access to CF you should sit down and read the comments made by most members.

[TorC]

nuigini

Do you think that's shocking? If you have access to CF you should sit down and read the comments made by most members.

I gave up on CF a while ago, it depressed me.

But at least I had a good laugh reading the bassa proposal

[Jean-Lill]

SP

How can you really claim the c/c rostering system is efficient with so many 24 hour availabilty days rostered immediately after MBT's with the following trip non-flexible which means the crew cannot be used on these availability days?

I realise a bidding system would be far more complex for the c/c because unlike the pilots the c/c fly on more than one aircraft type.

However other airlines manage to operate a c/c bidding system with multi aircraft types very effeciently, ask some of them and you will probably find the crew would not want to go back to the old fashioned rostered system you currently have.

[Stall Pusher]

The reason Jean there has been so much 24hr av, is because BA have run with a lot of surplus crew for self-serving political reasons to do with their aspirations to start a new fleet at LHR.

BA wold never agre to a bidding system for cabin crew because the Pilots Bidline is so costly and inefficient.

[HiFlyer14]

Hi SP

On the 23 June you wrote:

Savings from cabin crew contracts will make no difference to whether BA survives or not. Why should employees accept permanent changes to their pay if management don't do the same?

Why then have BASSA offered permanent changes to BA now, without prior consultation of the membership? Do you still support BASSA, after this blatant misrepresentation of their members?

[overstress]

Also, SP, if BA's cabin crew are fed up with us, they can choose to not join or read this thread, or they can come here themselves and tell us they're fed up. They don't need you to do it for them.

You perhaps are a BASSA rep, but you weren't elected to attempt to censor PPRune.

You will see nothing but honesty from pilots and most crew here, SP, you will find no bullying either.

Can you say the same about yourself? Please stick to the issues of this thread and if you want to criticise bidline, why not visit the terms and endearment forum where you will be greeted with great curiosity!

[Andyismyname]

SP, a number of interesting things have appeared on this thread over the last few months, not withstanding the CAA figures which showed that on average we cost our employer, on average, around £14000 per head than our competitor Virgin.

These independent figures prove that certain members of our community receive a very large remuneration package when compared to other members of our community.

As you will be aware, I have been unimpressed by the actions of BASSA, and particularly Lizanne Malone, who I feel is with-holding facts from her members.

Could I ask you what figure, in pounds, that BA could save by removing 'Bidline' from our colleagues in the Flight Deck?

[HiFlyer14]

I like the idea of us all claiming back our subscriptions from BASSA - I wonder if there is any real mileage in that?

BASSA have, contrary to the confidentiality agreement of both sides, published both proposals just to leave them hanging in the air. The speculation, and misinterpretation of the facts on other forums is quite scary. They are asking what ground duties we will have to perform. They have no understanding of the Fixed Monthly Duty Payment and the fact that it could be a benefit, particularly as pointed out earlier in relation to New Fleet. They have not read deep enough to realise it does not include meal allowances, but rather only the variable pay. They are muddling facts from both proposals, and they are calling for strike. BASSA, with only two days to go and having created this mayhem, is simply sitting back allowing the confusion and anxiety to perpetuate.

I have known for years that BASSA were incompetent. The extent of their incompetence has left even me flabergasted.

I sincerely hope that the majority of my colleagues take the time to read and digest both documents very carefully and understand what the real implications are if we do not agree something soon.

[MrBunker]

PC767,

Steady on - it's not a hatred of BASSA and crew. I don't hate crew in any sense, I'm wed to one and I genuinely enjoy the company of those I work with. However, I'm disappointed in BASSA and the selective use of information that they operate with. Our reps handed your chairperson the putative pilot agreement in its' entirety in order to maintain clarity and so that no ambiguity might be brought to bear in inter-union dealings. That she then chose to not disseminate it to you in toto suggests to me that there is more at play than meets the eye.

As for the cheeseboard, it's a real shame that you raise that as I feel it reduces your hitherto reasoned arguments on here to the slightly histrionic level of SP. At the risk of rehashing some very old facts, we gave away the cheeseboard in order to assist in funding the retirement package of the remaining Flight Engineers in the airline after the 747 Classic aircraft were grounded post 9/11. You might, if so minded, draw a contra-analogy with the manner in which BASSA appears (I say appears, as I'm aware that behind the scenes negotiations continue apace - or at least I fervently hope they do) to be willing to cut LGW adrift. SP's comments regarding the relative professionalism of LHR and LGW crews were some of the most petulant and professionally disloyal words I've ever seen written.

As an aside, my CSD wife who's sitting next to me has just informed me that LGW only lag a couple of percentage points behind LHR on the GPM scores. Not bad at all for a crew working to leaner numbers with less current experience. I rather think that speaks volumes. You, no doubt, will choose to disagree, presumably with vague rabble-rousing soundbites.

[Hotel Mode]

based on nothing but rumour.

I dont really see what the rumour about BASSAs proposal is. Its barely literate, uncosted, and clearly put together in a hurry. Much like many of the posters here it chooses to completely ignore the position of others (in this case BA) and rather than discussing them, changes the subject completely and goes off in a different direction.

Nearly 50% of it is spent discussing MId east B2Bs that present no saving, or crewing changes on an aircraft shortly to leave the fleet. The rest is a cobbling together of other unions/groups work with no clue how that work came to be concluded. Plus a lot of protection clauses for the senior crew as ever.

[Runway vacated]

PC 767

see nothing more than a hatred for Bassa and crew who agree with them for no other reason that it is the thing to do.

It has nothing to do with personal animosity, nor indeed "hatred". It is a quite reasonable unwillingness to stand idly by and watch a few selfish, deluded or ill informed individuals do their best to destroy the employer that feeds, clothes and houses me and my family.

If you believe, as I do, that there are those within BASSA who have an unrealistic view of both the company's, and their own, commercial strength, then I have a duty to try and correct that view by reasoned debate. Emotions simply do not come into it.

The attacks on Pilot agreements have been wholly instigated by both BASSA and their members as a crowd pleaser to make their own feeble efforts look marginally less incompetent. I think that trick has now had its day.

[PC767]

Mr Bunker. The issue of the cheese board was merely an example of how rumour becomes unsustained fact. I have no interest in your cheese board, nor for that matter with any of your T&Cs. I haven't worked to achieve them, I do not benefit from them, nor can I alter them. I believe SP has mistakenly tried to move the discussion away from the suggested content. BA and Project Columbus III.

The point is everybody seems to say that Bassa do not negotiate beyond 'no' and that the pilots were disgruntled at the loss of a cheese board. Neither is true. I cannot accept the argument that Bassa do not negotiate. Even the head of IfCE acknowledges that they do. I cannot state with any truth that Bassa sit in those negotiations simply saying 'no'. And neither can anyone else. What has happened in this debate is that it has been reduced to such heresay. Bassa say 'no', Bassa lie, the chairperson of Bassa lies. I don't agree with SP's stance but I can see how his back was raised. His retailiation has only caused the anti Bassa community to dig in even further. I count 4 or 5 protaganists from both sides on this site. Fortunately they do not represent the views of 3500 pilots, or 14000 cabin crew.

[Carnage Matey!]

It would be a lot better if we didn't repeatedly catch the BASSA leadership peddling lies and half truths to their members about pilots. Why do they do that?

[Runway vacated]

I agree that there is a lot of spin and hype over these talks, but your contention that

I cannot accept the argument that Bassa do not negotiate.

Does not really square with the rambling, barely literate document that is the fruits of their labours. If that is the result of many hours of ceaseless toil by a team of professional negotiators then BASSA have a big problem.

Also

I count 4 or 5 protaganists from both sides on this site. Fortunately they do not represent the views of 3500 pilots, or 14000 cabin crew.

whilst undoubtedly true is surely not an argument against debate by those who DO feel strongly enough to post? If followed to its logical conclusion then there is no point in ever contributing to an anonymous forum as there is no guarantee that your views are supported by anyone else?

[MrBunker]

PC767,

Firstly my apologies for mis-interpreting the thrust of your analogy. However, I've not said that BASSA don't negotiate either. I have however said that their direction concerns me. Whether or not those concerns prove to be valid remains to be seen. I am certainly concerned at the perceived unwillingness to disseminate all information handed to them in person by our reps and to selectively use it to paint our agreement in a different light to that which it actually is.

Such, it appears, is life.

[PC767]

RV.

The reason I believe it is fortunate that the protaganists are in a minority is that if the polorised views were representative then we would have no hope, Revolution would be on the cards.

I still have hope. I believe that in the first instance the cut of date for negotiations will be altered. I find it odd that both sides table written proposals then take the weekend off, leaving only one day to negotiate. Of course this is based on the lack of actual indepth information about the course of the proposals.

I cannot rid myself of the small concern that Walsh doesn't want talks to succeed. He seems to be doing his best to talk the business down in the press, under the guise of being a realist. I would imagine a realist would under stand the need for caution and confidence where future custom is concerned.

[TightSlot]

We're beginning to get bored with this - a constant reporting of each others posts, bickering and off-topic thread hijacking - You really can do better, and you know it.

Points to remember:

• You cannot assume that a person with a different point of view is a manager
• You cannot assume that a person with a different point of view is a union rep
• Try not to rise to the bait - just step away from the keyboard when you feel your blood pressure rising - time for a coffee
• Calling another person an idiot does not advance your case one bit, in fact, the reverse - play the ball, not the player

[wiggy]

Nope, nope, not here .......................

I've looked through a lot of bid-packs/ rosters and I can't find SP's 1 trip a month senior pilot ...... I've found trainers doing a recency trip during a "sim" month, and I've found the odd long haul part-timer who does one trip a month during their Part Time Month, I've found the odd manager doing a recency trip, but I can't, anywhere, find a full time non-management, non-trainer pilot consistently doing one trip a month every month...........in fact I'd suggest that given Bid Line Rules it's down right impossible and that SP misunderstood what he heard.

But hey ho, never let facts get in the way of a good soundbite