BA and Project Columbus III
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HF, the biggest problem is the intransigence of those in BASSA who believe that everyone else in the company needs to change except them.
The time has come for BASSA to accept that change has to come and the protected empires of the senior LH CC is about to crumble, possibly for the good of the more junior members. Instead of blaming each and every other department for taking the time and effort to negotiate a change they should concentrate on negotiating an acceptable position for their members.
The time has come for BASSA to accept that change has to come and the protected empires of the senior LH CC is about to crumble, possibly for the good of the more junior members. Instead of blaming each and every other department for taking the time and effort to negotiate a change they should concentrate on negotiating an acceptable position for their members.
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Plodding along and nuigini, thanks for the numbers.
Below is the picture I see.
15/20k Allowances per year,too hi, little tax paid on this, no effect on pensions.
11/18k Basic for newbees, too low, normal tax applied, decides pension pay.
29k Basic for many old timers, too hi (market rate) ditto ditto.
35k Basic for old time pursers, too hi (market rate) ditto ditto.
45k Basic for old time CSDs, too hi (market rate) ditto ditto.
Lowest paid in BARP, others in APS/NAPS.
Only option to keep the above happy is no change I think, but in these times, that option will not be avail, reminds me of an old MOL saying "perfect strorm" and just like we can't control the weather, this will not be controlled by all the horses pulling in different directions, the next few months will not be nice.
Below is the picture I see.
15/20k Allowances per year,too hi, little tax paid on this, no effect on pensions.
11/18k Basic for newbees, too low, normal tax applied, decides pension pay.
29k Basic for many old timers, too hi (market rate) ditto ditto.
35k Basic for old time pursers, too hi (market rate) ditto ditto.
45k Basic for old time CSDs, too hi (market rate) ditto ditto.
Lowest paid in BARP, others in APS/NAPS.
Only option to keep the above happy is no change I think, but in these times, that option will not be avail, reminds me of an old MOL saying "perfect strorm" and just like we can't control the weather, this will not be controlled by all the horses pulling in different directions, the next few months will not be nice.
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Basic salary these days first years is somewhere around £10.800.
Those who joined in 1997 on the new contract started at some £8000 and would these days be around £19.000 (full-time).
Those who joined in 1997 on the new contract started at some £8000 and would these days be around £19.000 (full-time).
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Could British Airways really go bust or not? - Times Online
If you bother to read the whole article it makes very sobering reading
If you bother to read the whole article it makes very sobering reading
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So is it really all over for BA? Is the world’s (former) favourite airline, Britain’s (former) national flag carrier and the (former) operator of Concorde really heading for the scrap-heap?
Seasoned airline watchers say not, accusing Walsh of having an ulterior motive. His apocalyptic missives, they say, are designed to soften up BA’s unions during crucial talks about cost-cutting.
Walsh wants big concessions – and an air of crisis will help. This month has brought voluntary pay cuts from pilots and engineers (pilots still have to vote on the plan), but the battle continues with ground staff and cabin crew. Walsh wants it sorted out by June 30. Industrial action this summer cannot be ruled out.
Walsh has another audience in mind, too, governments and regulators on both sides of the Atlantic. BA is trying to stitch together a merger with Iberia, the Spanish airline, and a strategic alliance with American Airlines. The latter, a deal that would leave BA and American free to collude on price and scheduling on Atlantic routes, faces a rough ride from competition watchdogs. Its fate is in the balance, with a decision expected in a few months.
BA’s management would also like some breathing space from the British government on a swingeing rise in air passenger duty, which the airline claims leaves it at a competitive disadvantage to its rivals.
“In my view, he is attempting to manage the expectations of staff. His view is that there is a serious structural shift here, not just a cyclical blip,” said Douglas McNeil, transport analyst at Astaire Securities, the investment bank.
Seasoned airline watchers say not, accusing Walsh of having an ulterior motive. His apocalyptic missives, they say, are designed to soften up BA’s unions during crucial talks about cost-cutting.
Walsh wants big concessions – and an air of crisis will help. This month has brought voluntary pay cuts from pilots and engineers (pilots still have to vote on the plan), but the battle continues with ground staff and cabin crew. Walsh wants it sorted out by June 30. Industrial action this summer cannot be ruled out.
Walsh has another audience in mind, too, governments and regulators on both sides of the Atlantic. BA is trying to stitch together a merger with Iberia, the Spanish airline, and a strategic alliance with American Airlines. The latter, a deal that would leave BA and American free to collude on price and scheduling on Atlantic routes, faces a rough ride from competition watchdogs. Its fate is in the balance, with a decision expected in a few months.
BA’s management would also like some breathing space from the British government on a swingeing rise in air passenger duty, which the airline claims leaves it at a competitive disadvantage to its rivals.
“In my view, he is attempting to manage the expectations of staff. His view is that there is a serious structural shift here, not just a cyclical blip,” said Douglas McNeil, transport analyst at Astaire Securities, the investment bank.
WW is playing a dangerous game , unfortunately if it does all go to the wall he won't be the one that has to pick up the pieces.
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and this one may please Stall Pusher and PiB
BA may ditch OpenSkies as transatlantic flights dive | Business | The Observer
BA may ditch OpenSkies as transatlantic flights dive | Business | The Observer
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I have been following this thread with interest and in my opinion as an outsider, I think that this union BASSA seem to have a lot to answer for. In this day companies need to change and adapt to the market and sometimes that means that jobs need to change, people need to do things different and sometimes people are made redundant.
I understand that Richard Branson can react quickly as he does not have the interference that BA has, in my opinion, from an outsider I would blame the unions equally - you cannot refuse everything the company asks, the hot towel debate sums this up for me. That argument was just insane, sorry but that is how I view it.
I hope you survive and regardless of what you think, you do seem to have a stong leader, popular no - but someone who is prepared to stand up and fight. Maybe in 5 years if you get through this then you will think differently.
I understand that Richard Branson can react quickly as he does not have the interference that BA has, in my opinion, from an outsider I would blame the unions equally - you cannot refuse everything the company asks, the hot towel debate sums this up for me. That argument was just insane, sorry but that is how I view it.
I hope you survive and regardless of what you think, you do seem to have a stong leader, popular no - but someone who is prepared to stand up and fight. Maybe in 5 years if you get through this then you will think differently.
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So....
Going back to my question on post 912....
The question was....
Who will ask Liz Malone, (the BASSA chairman) why she deliberately permitted BASSA to post information that was both incomplete and incorrect ?
It has been confirmed by BALPA that Liz had received the complete, accurate BALPA document 72hrs beforehand ?
I have now had the following cryptic private message from Stall Pusher:
Balpa document
I have the the answer, but I have been gagged until the 25th by the moderator Flaps 40
SP
Is any other BASSA member actually prepared to ask the Chair of BASSA why she has permitted BASSA to lie ?
Anyone ... ?
Or are you all forgetting who a union is meant to represent ?
Going back to my question on post 912....
The question was....
Who will ask Liz Malone, (the BASSA chairman) why she deliberately permitted BASSA to post information that was both incomplete and incorrect ?
It has been confirmed by BALPA that Liz had received the complete, accurate BALPA document 72hrs beforehand ?
I have now had the following cryptic private message from Stall Pusher:
Balpa document
I have the the answer, but I have been gagged until the 25th by the moderator Flaps 40
SP
Is any other BASSA member actually prepared to ask the Chair of BASSA why she has permitted BASSA to lie ?
Anyone ... ?
Or are you all forgetting who a union is meant to represent ?
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Thanks Da Dog/ Fargoo, nice to have some support here.
When Walsh predicted last year that 30 airlines would go bust in the recession, we never thought he would start one of them!!!
Nearly £100m has been wasted on OpenSkies/L'Avion
Walsh should now resign. He has no credibility whatsoever.
There is no way the unions should give up anything in light of this.
When Walsh predicted last year that 30 airlines would go bust in the recession, we never thought he would start one of them!!!
Nearly £100m has been wasted on OpenSkies/L'Avion
Walsh should now resign. He has no credibility whatsoever.
There is no way the unions should give up anything in light of this.
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Walsh should now resign. He has no credibility whatsoever
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Similarly....
The shareholders will be thrilled when he imposes terms on all groups on 1st July (including pilots) as no agreements were met with all NSP groups.
No deal with Crew/ Groundstaff, deal with pilots is off too is this not the case?
I'm not gloating BTW, just pointing out facts that could hit home to us all in just over one week.
Everyone is willing SP to urge BASSA to negotiate (believe me I'm their least biggest fan!). I ask is anyone emailing or calling BA to negotiate too? You may find this course just a worthwhile, as you all seem to think that the lack of progression stems from one camp.
WLITS
The shareholders will be thrilled when he imposes terms on all groups on 1st July (including pilots) as no agreements were met with all NSP groups.
No deal with Crew/ Groundstaff, deal with pilots is off too is this not the case?
I'm not gloating BTW, just pointing out facts that could hit home to us all in just over one week.
Everyone is willing SP to urge BASSA to negotiate (believe me I'm their least biggest fan!). I ask is anyone emailing or calling BA to negotiate too? You may find this course just a worthwhile, as you all seem to think that the lack of progression stems from one camp.
WLITS
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I've read and watched this thread with growing alarm, stunned at the ignorance and arrogance displayed by Stall Pusher.
Let's see, where to start? Well your latest displays a fairly profound lack of knowledge about the OS deals; whilst we may not agree with them, they were given £30 million as a start-up cost, and the acquisition of L'Avion brought with it a cash balance equivalent to the purchase price. So nowhere near £100 million. On top of that, they are not getting the other 757's from the fleet, so are running with two from BA and two legacy from the purchase.
All in all a Pyrrhic victory for Walsh; BA pilots would happily have accomodated that deal given the chance, but were forced into a corner by a very savvy legal department, one that Stall Pusher may well find slapping him in the face very soon.
The personal cost to Cabin Crew will be quite dreadful, but the fault for that should land at one door and one door alone; BASSA. For years they have fought to preserve the earnings of an elite few at the cost of other bases and new joiners. For years they have found themselves in the ego-enhancing position of being first point of contact in any disruption, and found that they were listened to when in reality they had no right to that level of importance of influence in airline operations. For years they have ignored the fact that we are no longer in the 70's and a nationalised industry, but have continued to behave as if we are, and chose not to integrate the remnants of that age (look at the wish-list on page one of this thread to refresh memories) into basic pay. Indeed the vociferousness of opposition to the "hourly rate" was quite something, and carried through the community without most of the cabin crew really realising how it would benefit them longer-term, how it could affect pensionable pay, and indeed, how it would apply in the event of compulsory redundancy.
The thing is, I could go on. And on and on. Why should I as a Captain have to defer to a Union for the application of discretion? Please explain that one, with reference to the Air Navigation Order and the particular paragraphs that state that this is all ok but BASSA come first.
I hate to say it, but there is a wake-up call coming, and it will hurt most those who are not BASSA officials, or the highest way-over market-rate paid crew, but the ones who can take the hit the least, the vast majority. And the reason for that will be that for years they have been "served" by a union not fit for purpose, a collection of individuals little more than a clique who will do anything to keep their own particular status quo at the expense of every other part of their organisation being on different terms. And now it has come home to bite, and bite it will, and it will hurt.
The sooner BA cabin-crew realise how their union has sold them down the river the better. The sooner they realise that the intelligence-insulting tabloid "Newsflashes" they send out are littered with innacuracies and untruths the better.
SO why is it not mentioned anywhere that BASSA had the BALPA negotiated deal in hand as of the 15th? Why did they choose the tone they chose for the newsletter? And why did they not publish it in full, rather cherry-pick and spin to suit their own agenda? Why did they not poll their members for how they would wish them to deal with the company's proposal? Why did they not forensically examine the company's accounts to see if they were telling the truth?
Oh sorry; "BA are profitable." So it's all ok then. Stall Pusher said so a few posts ago, so it must be true, and this will all go away.
Unfortunately, Mr SP, you are doing such a disservice to your fellow crew that you are culpable. I only hope the majority can see through you.
I hate to say this, but I will do anything to keep my company afloat, and if that involves crossing your picket lines and working in the cabin, then so be it. I have asked my colleagues the same on the last few flights and there is in my little unscientific poll 100% agreement on that course of action. Sorry, but if you call a strike I will do my best to break it. If you called a JUSTIFIED strike I would support you 100%, but the difference is in the detail, you have no justification.
You have 9-days to negotiate an agreement. Do it. You have neither credibiity nor accuracy in your arguments, your agreements cannot hold water and you will either move with the times, take the financial hit, or be signing-on.
Let's see, where to start? Well your latest displays a fairly profound lack of knowledge about the OS deals; whilst we may not agree with them, they were given £30 million as a start-up cost, and the acquisition of L'Avion brought with it a cash balance equivalent to the purchase price. So nowhere near £100 million. On top of that, they are not getting the other 757's from the fleet, so are running with two from BA and two legacy from the purchase.
All in all a Pyrrhic victory for Walsh; BA pilots would happily have accomodated that deal given the chance, but were forced into a corner by a very savvy legal department, one that Stall Pusher may well find slapping him in the face very soon.
The personal cost to Cabin Crew will be quite dreadful, but the fault for that should land at one door and one door alone; BASSA. For years they have fought to preserve the earnings of an elite few at the cost of other bases and new joiners. For years they have found themselves in the ego-enhancing position of being first point of contact in any disruption, and found that they were listened to when in reality they had no right to that level of importance of influence in airline operations. For years they have ignored the fact that we are no longer in the 70's and a nationalised industry, but have continued to behave as if we are, and chose not to integrate the remnants of that age (look at the wish-list on page one of this thread to refresh memories) into basic pay. Indeed the vociferousness of opposition to the "hourly rate" was quite something, and carried through the community without most of the cabin crew really realising how it would benefit them longer-term, how it could affect pensionable pay, and indeed, how it would apply in the event of compulsory redundancy.
The thing is, I could go on. And on and on. Why should I as a Captain have to defer to a Union for the application of discretion? Please explain that one, with reference to the Air Navigation Order and the particular paragraphs that state that this is all ok but BASSA come first.
I hate to say it, but there is a wake-up call coming, and it will hurt most those who are not BASSA officials, or the highest way-over market-rate paid crew, but the ones who can take the hit the least, the vast majority. And the reason for that will be that for years they have been "served" by a union not fit for purpose, a collection of individuals little more than a clique who will do anything to keep their own particular status quo at the expense of every other part of their organisation being on different terms. And now it has come home to bite, and bite it will, and it will hurt.
The sooner BA cabin-crew realise how their union has sold them down the river the better. The sooner they realise that the intelligence-insulting tabloid "Newsflashes" they send out are littered with innacuracies and untruths the better.
SO why is it not mentioned anywhere that BASSA had the BALPA negotiated deal in hand as of the 15th? Why did they choose the tone they chose for the newsletter? And why did they not publish it in full, rather cherry-pick and spin to suit their own agenda? Why did they not poll their members for how they would wish them to deal with the company's proposal? Why did they not forensically examine the company's accounts to see if they were telling the truth?
Oh sorry; "BA are profitable." So it's all ok then. Stall Pusher said so a few posts ago, so it must be true, and this will all go away.
Unfortunately, Mr SP, you are doing such a disservice to your fellow crew that you are culpable. I only hope the majority can see through you.
I hate to say this, but I will do anything to keep my company afloat, and if that involves crossing your picket lines and working in the cabin, then so be it. I have asked my colleagues the same on the last few flights and there is in my little unscientific poll 100% agreement on that course of action. Sorry, but if you call a strike I will do my best to break it. If you called a JUSTIFIED strike I would support you 100%, but the difference is in the detail, you have no justification.
You have 9-days to negotiate an agreement. Do it. You have neither credibiity nor accuracy in your arguments, your agreements cannot hold water and you will either move with the times, take the financial hit, or be signing-on.
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Plan10,
Excellent post! I completely understand where you're coming from. I hadn't heard the flight crew willing to work in the cabin if it comes to strike, but fair play to you. I'll be there with you, as I have no intention of striking - and I will be voting NO strike if it comes to it.
I still can't find any legal reason to strike, and the sooner the militants and Bassa realise this, the better.
Gg
Excellent post! I completely understand where you're coming from. I hadn't heard the flight crew willing to work in the cabin if it comes to strike, but fair play to you. I'll be there with you, as I have no intention of striking - and I will be voting NO strike if it comes to it.
I still can't find any legal reason to strike, and the sooner the militants and Bassa realise this, the better.
Gg
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Glamgirl, you have no idea how much it pains me to write what I did, but I WILL cross any BASSA picket line related to this dispute and work in the cabin if it will keep my family fed. Had the union a justifiable dispute then I would NEVER coutenance that action, but unfortunately BASSA have already set their stall out by choosing not to preserve a single-list for crew but allow different bases, rates, seniority lists and agreements over the year as long as their core, and the agreements regarding that core were preserved.
Others-be-damned, as long as the elite in BASSA could maintain their position it was ok. Well, it wasn't. By ignoring the issues that were raised by seperate base agreements at Gatwick, the Regions, the integrations of CFE crew etc. they merely solidified their own position. Fortress Heathrow is too simplistic a term, but that is simply what it was, and is. Now, the CSD's on Shorhaul aircraft, the over-crewing over and above levels minimum for either legal requirements or service are being directly challenged and BASSA is squealing for your indignation and support. They are mis-representing facts to try to achieve that goal. They are trying to paint other workers as the demons, even management as being unrealsitic when in reality their position is untenable and indefensible.
This was a long time coming. Had your union been worth the dues you pay they would have seen it, and spent the last few years mitigating it and finding ways to bring their position into line with the market, perhaps with a premiuim element had they the nous to negotiate that.
That they did not speaks volumes about their motivation and their ability. That they may drag the company down is sufficient for me to forsake my politicla sensibilities and consider breaking a strike, and from someone with my history (dating back to the picket-lines on the miners strike and the poll-tax marches) that is not something I would do lightly. But I will in this case if BASSA call a strike, and I will call on ALL my colleagues who care for the company to do the same, as BASSA are unrepresentative, selfish, ignorant of the greater business world we inhabit now and culpable in what is to come.
Thank you for what you write Glamgirl; I know most crew are like you, and you I want to see suffer the least. We all will take a hit in the next few weeks, it is shameful that a selfish agenda masks BASSA's motivations.
Others-be-damned, as long as the elite in BASSA could maintain their position it was ok. Well, it wasn't. By ignoring the issues that were raised by seperate base agreements at Gatwick, the Regions, the integrations of CFE crew etc. they merely solidified their own position. Fortress Heathrow is too simplistic a term, but that is simply what it was, and is. Now, the CSD's on Shorhaul aircraft, the over-crewing over and above levels minimum for either legal requirements or service are being directly challenged and BASSA is squealing for your indignation and support. They are mis-representing facts to try to achieve that goal. They are trying to paint other workers as the demons, even management as being unrealsitic when in reality their position is untenable and indefensible.
This was a long time coming. Had your union been worth the dues you pay they would have seen it, and spent the last few years mitigating it and finding ways to bring their position into line with the market, perhaps with a premiuim element had they the nous to negotiate that.
That they did not speaks volumes about their motivation and their ability. That they may drag the company down is sufficient for me to forsake my politicla sensibilities and consider breaking a strike, and from someone with my history (dating back to the picket-lines on the miners strike and the poll-tax marches) that is not something I would do lightly. But I will in this case if BASSA call a strike, and I will call on ALL my colleagues who care for the company to do the same, as BASSA are unrepresentative, selfish, ignorant of the greater business world we inhabit now and culpable in what is to come.
Thank you for what you write Glamgirl; I know most crew are like you, and you I want to see suffer the least. We all will take a hit in the next few weeks, it is shameful that a selfish agenda masks BASSA's motivations.
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Plan10 is spot-on by my understanding of the facts.
I can work a bev-maker and would do my bit. I would say that most pilots would work as described.
BASSA are playing with fire now as their communications to their members will be examined in court should it come to it.
FWIW it took BALPA some time to convince its members that the figures in the books were as bad as they are. The result is the deal they have struck... after long and hard negotiation.
BASSA didn't even see the need to see the books and do not understand how to negotiate....
WeLieintheShadows: All deals will not be off, assuming failure to agree, BA will impose the savings anyway, depts who have agreed will then go ahead with the agreed changes. I'm sure that fact will shortly be seized on and twisted for propaganda reasons....
I can work a bev-maker and would do my bit. I would say that most pilots would work as described.
BASSA are playing with fire now as their communications to their members will be examined in court should it come to it.
FWIW it took BALPA some time to convince its members that the figures in the books were as bad as they are. The result is the deal they have struck... after long and hard negotiation.
BASSA didn't even see the need to see the books and do not understand how to negotiate....
WeLieintheShadows: All deals will not be off, assuming failure to agree, BA will impose the savings anyway, depts who have agreed will then go ahead with the agreed changes. I'm sure that fact will shortly be seized on and twisted for propaganda reasons....
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Shadows - BALPA have come up with an elegant solution to the scenario you describe. Our cost saving measures commence on October 1st, 92 days after the day on which WW will issue 90 days notice on the contracts of those groups who don't think they should contribute. By that stage we'll have a clear picture of how the savings are to be wrung from those groups.
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An interesting fact is that UNITE (formally the T and G) has its biggest block membership
in the UK at Heathrow and specifically within BA with BASSA and the ground unions.
Whatever happens they stand to be the biggest losers with a reduction in membership and thereby funds.
Has anybody seen Tony Woodley ?
in the UK at Heathrow and specifically within BA with BASSA and the ground unions.
Whatever happens they stand to be the biggest losers with a reduction in membership and thereby funds.
Has anybody seen Tony Woodley ?
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NO Carnage you are re-writing history to suit your biased, warped and anti cabin crew agenda. Your post about the so called "victories" of Walsh were in fact defeats. Even BALPA said that the 10% Operating Turnover Margin goal was taking precedent over the prudent running of the airline. That is how we have gone from a huge profit, to a record breaking loss.
Of the £54m paid for L'Avion there was supposed to be £24m in cash....but no one said what debts the airline had. BA has cash in the bank, but it has debts. As we come up to the first anniversary of OS commencing operations, there is no doubt it has been a huge and naive blunder. Just as the oil price peaked at U$147 and with the wreckage of other failed business only model airlines laying around, Walsh starts up one of the same...and the outcome has been the same.
Of course Walsh gave BALPA a bloody nose over OS, so it is strange that Carnage and his other OTP friends seem to be disappointed that it may not survive.
As I have said before so many times, BA is profitable. It would be profitable now if it was paying the market rate for fuel.
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but most cabin crew avoid PPRUNE and threads such as this like the plague, because it is a pro Flight Deck and anti cabin crew community. Pilots get very upset when cabin crew post comments on their threads, but it is OK for them to display their natural arrogance and talk about "intelligent negotiating", "elegant solution" which sounds pompous in the extreme. The truth is most pilots just moan about BALPA being 'impotent' and 'expensive'. Some have left in protest over the legal humiliation in the OS showdown with Walsh, perferring to use private solicitors who specialise in employment law, as they secretely know (as Walsh does) that BALPA are a busted flush.
So write all you like about BASSA, all will be revealed in the next week or so.
Of the £54m paid for L'Avion there was supposed to be £24m in cash....but no one said what debts the airline had. BA has cash in the bank, but it has debts. As we come up to the first anniversary of OS commencing operations, there is no doubt it has been a huge and naive blunder. Just as the oil price peaked at U$147 and with the wreckage of other failed business only model airlines laying around, Walsh starts up one of the same...and the outcome has been the same.
Of course Walsh gave BALPA a bloody nose over OS, so it is strange that Carnage and his other OTP friends seem to be disappointed that it may not survive.
As I have said before so many times, BA is profitable. It would be profitable now if it was paying the market rate for fuel.
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but most cabin crew avoid PPRUNE and threads such as this like the plague, because it is a pro Flight Deck and anti cabin crew community. Pilots get very upset when cabin crew post comments on their threads, but it is OK for them to display their natural arrogance and talk about "intelligent negotiating", "elegant solution" which sounds pompous in the extreme. The truth is most pilots just moan about BALPA being 'impotent' and 'expensive'. Some have left in protest over the legal humiliation in the OS showdown with Walsh, perferring to use private solicitors who specialise in employment law, as they secretely know (as Walsh does) that BALPA are a busted flush.
So write all you like about BASSA, all will be revealed in the next week or so.
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SP
Perhaps they avoid it because it does not conform to their blinkered view of the world presented to them by BASSA, such as.........
That is like me saying that most Cabin Crew I speak to don't want to go on strike and don't trust BASSA. Its a true statement but 20 or so cabin crew is hardly a good sample.
0 to be accurate
Yep its gonna be interesting, would you like to start a sweep stake?
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but most cabin crew avoid PPRuNe and threads such as this like the plague, because it is a pro Flight Deck and anti cabin crew community.
It would be profitable now if it was paying the market rate for fuel.
The truth is most pilots just moan about BALPA being 'impotent' and 'expensive'.
Some have left in protest over the legal humiliation in the OS showdown with Walsh
all will be revealed in the next week or so.