BA and Project Columbus II
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EYXW/Tiger.
I certainly do not want to start a new argument or go off thread. What ever our perspectives were of the SFG vote, the main point is that the t&cs at SFG are not because there was a sell out by either BASSA or crew at LHR. BASSA said don't accept, LHR didn't have a vote.
Now SFG is within the NSP and now that word is out that LGW is still too expensive can I suggest that columbus/FOC will have an effect upon us all. Unions and management are now in discussions so they us hope for a positive outcome and a decent set of compromises.
I certainly do not want to start a new argument or go off thread. What ever our perspectives were of the SFG vote, the main point is that the t&cs at SFG are not because there was a sell out by either BASSA or crew at LHR. BASSA said don't accept, LHR didn't have a vote.
Now SFG is within the NSP and now that word is out that LGW is still too expensive can I suggest that columbus/FOC will have an effect upon us all. Unions and management are now in discussions so they us hope for a positive outcome and a decent set of compromises.
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Originally Posted by PC767
A stupid trollish post carnage. You clearly don't like cabin crew do you? Well sorry but the CAA states that we are a necessary evil. If only to bring you guys an edition of every newspaper onboard into the flight deck, only to clear them out again once you've finished the crosswords.
here in Ops we just colour in the pictures.
As far as mixing LH and SH duties goes, it's perfectly possible, but as was said earlier there do need to be bigger gaps between duties due to being unacclimatised and needing your 3 local nights, etc. so it's not as simple as rostering a bunch of TFS's or similar and leaving it at that.
Just for those that don't know and don't like to ask, CAP371 (The avoidance of fatigue in aircrews) is the CAA publication that lays down the minimum legal framework that all flight deck and cabin crews MUST comply with in order to operate a commercial airline. Its terms are final and non-negotiable.
Union agreements, scheduling agreements, etc. are basically refinements and niceties over-and-above the bare legal rules of CAP371 and are agreed on a case-by-case basis between an airline and its crews/union. There is always the option to drop any or all of these agreements providing both parties agree to do so (During times of disruption, emergency, etc.) There are no legality issues with this and no-one from the CAA will take action against you. BASSA can ask you not to, but they can't stop you.
I would imagine that if they censured you for 'breaking the agreements' and suspended or even barred you as has been alleged on here, then you would have a very good case for some sort of legal action against them.
This is why so many pilots and other department guys get so narked when Cabin Crews start saying it's "Illegal" to go against the Union agreements. It isn't.
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MBTR? Max Bit Transfer Rate? sorry, it's a bit early in the morning - I'm not sure what you mean. 
In general though, cabin crews will always have more hours than pilots. If your CC are the most limiting factor then you've done your sums wrong.
Cabin Crew also get 1 hour less rest than pilots. That's 11 hours as Minimum or as long as the preceding duty less 1 hour. Whichever is the greater. In practice when downroute on long hauls though they'll get same rest as the pilots because the whole crew transfers, HOTACs and reports together.
Hope this helps. If it's not what you were after then I'll edit any further info into this post to avoid clogging the thread up with off-topic.
Exactly right. Direction of flight doesn't matter. All it specifies in the big book of rules is whether you're Acclimatised or Unacclimatised.
Once you've had your 3 local nights on the ground in a single time zone then the counter has been 'reset' and you're good to go again.
In general though, cabin crews will always have more hours than pilots. If your CC are the most limiting factor then you've done your sums wrong.
Cabin Crew also get 1 hour less rest than pilots. That's 11 hours as Minimum or as long as the preceding duty less 1 hour. Whichever is the greater. In practice when downroute on long hauls though they'll get same rest as the pilots because the whole crew transfers, HOTACs and reports together.
Hope this helps. If it's not what you were after then I'll edit any further info into this post to avoid clogging the thread up with off-topic.
Originally Posted by CarnageMatey
I'm fairly sure CAP371 has no directions regarding direction of flight. I could legally fly a mixture of easterly long haul, westerly long haul and short haul if BA so wished without problems.
Once you've had your 3 local nights on the ground in a single time zone then the counter has been 'reset' and you're good to go again.
Last edited by Ten West; 14th Feb 2009 at 10:46.
As long as you remember MBTR is an Industrial Issue. AFAIK there is nothing in CAP 371, there is nothing in the BA scheme, or Joint procedures manual, a.k.a. the "blue book" to prevent a BA Crew member from turning round at base after one night, provided CAP 371 limits are observed.
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MBTR is an 'advisory' table printed within CAP371. Hence any less than that could be seen as fatigue inducing. The pilots side of the table does in fact give an extra day to that of the cabin crew and there also needs to be less work/time zones crossed, down route time etc...... before the need for days off applies.
So if you work to CAP371 and adopt its advisory table for cabin crew, God help you!
You can find it on the CAA website under publications.
6
So if you work to CAP371 and adopt its advisory table for cabin crew, God help you!
You can find it on the CAA website under publications.
6
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Sorry to be picky. CAP371 and "BA Scheme" are not quite the same. Although the BA Scheme is used instead of CAP371, it is based upon it except there are some minor differences. For example, in the case of the pilots, we can work more earlies than CAP371 normally permits.
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As far as I'm aware, each airline formulates its own operating manual based on CAP 371 then gets it approved by the CAA. Our own "General Basic" for example has a few differences, but we operate to "Good Rostering Practice" (Legal, with niceties agreed by BALPA, BASSA, etc.) when forward planning the deployment of crews.
"Legal" or what we call "Gen. Basic" is a fall-back position used mainly in extremis, usually on the day, to resolve an unforeseen problem (Weather, tech. delays, etc) and overrides the usual rules where it can legally do so.
"Legal" or what we call "Gen. Basic" is a fall-back position used mainly in extremis, usually on the day, to resolve an unforeseen problem (Weather, tech. delays, etc) and overrides the usual rules where it can legally do so.
Join Date: Nov 2005
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B.A. Cabin Crew Lay-Offs...
Probably not the right thread, but just heard of two people and numerous other cabin crew that have been finished-up at B.A. Worldwide LHR...? I assume they were on a temporary contract.. ? I beleive they are now just waiting for a phonecall telling them if they'll be needed in the future... not a good time to be out of work, unless they're on a 'retainer' pending future expansion... I sincerely hope these guys get jobs... 
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The first temps on LHR WW were laid off in October last year. They were given the opportunity of a new temp contract and starting date last week, only for the opportunity to be revoked two days later.
At the same time BA has new temp courses coming online and more new courses planned for March and April. One source suggests eight new courses in total.
Left hand meet right hand!
At the same time BA has new temp courses coming online and more new courses planned for March and April. One source suggests eight new courses in total.
Left hand meet right hand!
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That really seems very odd to me... is it cheaper to have never-ending temps on the payroll or something, it sounds like they're all at it now, even our lot have got a load of temps (sorry, fixed term contractors!!!) starting next month at nearly all our bases... doesn't seem right somehow... 
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I am 33% (6 weeks off, 3 weeks on) and my salary really flutuates. I take home anything between £1100 and £2000 per month.
On you go Willie, with our blessing.
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Flytoserve,
If you advocate that people who got nothing intelligent to say better keep quiet, you might want to take your own advice. Stating that your job is harder than most is a bit of an unintelligent comment!!
Earning £1100 - £2000 at month for only three weeks out of every nine weeks. And then complaining that you don't earn enough. Again, ask the people in other jobs who work 50 - 60 hours a week for minimum wage.
Think that you need a reality check.
CEJM.
If you advocate that people who got nothing intelligent to say better keep quiet, you might want to take your own advice. Stating that your job is harder than most is a bit of an unintelligent comment!!
Earning £1100 - £2000 at month for only three weeks out of every nine weeks. And then complaining that you don't earn enough. Again, ask the people in other jobs who work 50 - 60 hours a week for minimum wage.
Think that you need a reality check.
CEJM.
Last edited by CEJM; 23rd Feb 2009 at 10:31. Reason: spelling
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And we wonder why British Airways is in the sorry state it's in!!!! Nothing personal but 'flytoserve' sounds like a right idiot-is this the standard of employees in B.A. these days..? What ever happened to hard-work..? I do 6 on 3 off, that's days not 6 weeks off 3 weeks on, how ridiculous, how does B.A. expect to get any decent productivity from alledged 'employees' when they're on 6 weeks off, 3 weeks on..? What sort of crazy system is that..? B.A. is losing £1 million a day according to various sources. B.A. need to get rid of ALL the 'hangers-on' and start fresh with crew who may well be earning less, but who are perhaps more keen and motivated to make B.A. a company to once again be proud of..