BA and Project Columbus II

[Ten West]

Originally Posted by PC767

Out argued. Not in the slightest, because thus far this hasn't been an argument.

True. Difficult to argue with the facts as stated and referenced.

It has decended into a group rant. And if I'm flinging toys out of my pram, suddenly I see why the little boys are ranting - because it seems that my toys are hitting them as they crawl around the floor.

Whisky Tango Foxtrot??

The lastest high brow remark from the 'intelligencia' - cabin crew are tw*ts. Oh, I know you didn't actually say that, but the inference was clear.

You may say that Sir, I could not possibly comment.

My remark was an expression of dismay that you still haven't yet rumbled as to why many people in the industry regard Cabin Crew as... well, let's just say they sometimes don't hold them in very high regard.

It's a shame that there are tantrums being thrown now as there is some very useful information and clarification to be gained from this thread. Hopefully some "Non-combatants" from the cabin crew community may glean something useful from it - if they can be bothered to wade through all the mud-slinging!

[Classic]

Agreements have been made by all parties and cannot simply ignored at will. The problem is one party will see precedents being set and believe that agreements can just be scrapped as pleased. And in a company as large as BA agreements are akin to laws to protect the opertion, company and individual.

This is the nub of the problem. Bassa insist that any variation of the agreement, even when passengers are sleeping on terminal floors, will be a precedent. Absolute rubbish.

Has anyone asked Bassa to provide a single example where a steward/ess going beyond their agreement to deal with significant disruption has been used as a precedent to cause a reduction in Bassa's Ts and Cs???

Of course not, they're scared to death on the crew forums of defying the Bassa line, of questioning the wonderful, amazing reps and their saviour, their omniscient leader.

They're living in Lala(lady)land.

[Human Factor]

For my flight deck colleagues I'll mention, only once, OpenSkies.

For my money, WW was testing BALPA to see how far they were prepared to go. Although the outcome wasn't in the pilots' favour, I think enough was done for him to be very careful which fight he picks with the pilots next time.

Equally, he also tested the water with BASSA fairly early in his reign, probably also to gauge the response. The question BASSA needs to be asking itself is if they call for support from their membership, will they get enough? I would suggest they're more likely to get that support by reasoned argument than empty threats and rabble rousing.

[Ten West]

Having seen the reception given to my "reasoned arguments" and to those of others I wouldn't be too sure of that one HF!

[TopBunk]

BASSA are demonstrating all the symptoms of being headless chickens without a well thought out strategy to counter Columbus.

I personally think that they will be mortally wounded in the upcoming battle, and that with the economy the way it is and the way the forward projections for the airline business are looking, that they will find it difficult to get a strike vote through ('cos I'm 99% sure that that is what it will come to).

That doesn't mean to say that they won't try and the ramifications could be serious for BA going forward.

One more point. It has been mentioned before and asked of cabin crew whose name is on their paycheck, BA or BASSA. Well, as I understand it, BASSA reps are part paid for by Unite and partly by BA. I am not sure that it helps when your reps are not truly representative and may have different motives. Just a thought ......

[am i bothered]

I think that out of pure jelousy and desperation people are choosing to be critical of BASSA. The union has agreements which are desgined to prevent exploitation and to ensure that the crew are provided with ample rest and are treated properly whilst on duty.

Maybe Bassa would be more flexible if there was trust when they give an inch the otherside take a mile.

It seems to me that many pilots are taking their frustration out on crew because they can not stand the fact that they are not the only well paid group of people on the aircraft. Also I think the fact that they pay £40 a month or so only to be led up the garden path is also a contributing factor.

Mind you the anti crew sentiment on this forum has been on going long before the open skies farce.

Most of us do an excellent job and the customers keep comming back because of the professionalism of the crew.

Its about time the pilots and indeed other airline crews butted out of the crews agreements and concentrated on their issues.

[Da Dog]

am i bothered...........err yes clearly you are, since you took time out to register and then have an incoherent rant.

Makes me think someone at BASSA must have told you to do so.

[am i bothered]

What do you mean? I have been registered for a while now and seeing the posts that served no purpose other than to criticise people for standing up for their rights motivated me to post.

[OzzieO]

Da Dog - incoherent rant? Looks like a very well thought out posting to me.

Think am I bothered has touched a raw nerve.

[am i bothered]

Thank you Ozzieo.

What baffles me is people think they have the right to discuss peoples contracts and terms and conditions of employment. They have no business doing so. Most wouldnt dream of talking to a pilot about their terms and conditions.

[am i bothered]

Da dog it maybe a large work company and people may just be a number. However there are also have elected representatives who fight on their employees behalf to maintain working conditions and pay thats is acceptable for their members.

So if you think people are going to roll over simply becuase its "the norm" then you are mistaken.

This is the problem. People do not seem to like the fact that there is a strong voice.

[Carnage Matey!]

No, it was a rant. "jelousy [sic] and desperation"? Frustration that pilots are not the only well paid people on the aircraft? Do me a favour! Apart from the fact that it would be somewhat vulgar to discuss the pay disparity, it's notable that the non-BASSA posters largely stick to the facts relating to that unions inexcusable intransigence in the recent past whilst the BASSA members constantly try to deflect the argument by launching into personal attacks on peoples character. Sadly (and predictably) that mirrors the general tone and content of BASSAs normal output.

[am i bothered]

What business does one group of staff have talking to another about something that is of no concern to them whatsoever??

At the end of the day the crew pay their subs, they vote for their representatives and they make decisions at union meetings. So attacking Bassa is attacking the 11500 or so who make up the union. The union is not one person or a comittee its the whole membership.

So I think its about time people concentrated on the issues that affect them and minded their own business.

I just cant believe people have the gaul to question union agreements. A union whom they do not even belong to. Politics they dont understand and use this tool merely as a place to sound off without any knowledge or facts.

[Ten West]

Originally Posted by amibothered

What business does one group of staff have talking to another about something that is of no concern to them whatsoever??

It becomes my concern when BASSA (and by extension the actions of those who unquestioningly follow its every dictate) stand a very real chance of bringing down, or at least causing serious damage to, an airline. This problem goes wider than BA, but BA is where the real action currently is.
We quite like our jobs, thank you very much. What right have you to destroy our employers?

At the end of the day the crew pay their subs, they vote for their representatives and they make decisions at union meetings. So attacking Bassa is attacking the 11500 or so who make up the union. The union is not one person or a comittee its the whole membership.

So why then do BASSA members not stand up as individuals and say 'Enough now. Do what you're paid to do, and look after our interests on our behalf. Stop playing Little Dictators because with the way things are now you stand a very real chance of putting us on the dole'.

Withold hot towels for pax (allegedly) as a protest? Do me a favour.

So I think its about time people concentrated on the issues that affect them and minded their own business.

See above. It's all of our business.

I just cant believe people have the gaul to question union agreements.

Spoken like a true lemming. I would hope some of you would have the gall (Gaul was an ancient kingdom where France now sits, but semantics aside for a moment) You should be questioning them. They work for YOU.

A union whom they do not even belong to.

Wrong again. Many people on here do belong to the union. They just have their own minds and can see where blind allegiance to a misguided leadership will ultimately get them in the middle of an economic downturn, that's all.

Politics they dont understand and use this tool merely as a place to sound off without any knowledge or facts.

Maybe this will help:

Internet forum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Princeton University defines a "Forum" as:

"a public meeting or assembly for open discussion"

You want to preach to the converted and have no outside contributions or challenges? Move it to a "B A Only" section.

Unions should not be about politics. When the Tolpuddle Martyrs founded the first proper union it was with the admirable intention to work with employers to secure better conditions for their members. Politics shouldn't enter into it.

Are you telling me that you understand the 'Politics' of having operating practices so restrictive that you punish the passengers who have chosen to fly with you, and consequently pay your wages, and that you're happy to see your employer put at a substantial commercial disadvantage in the midst of very tough times?

You must be more misguided than even I imagined.

[bermudatriangle]

Tough times ahead for BA and all of its workforces.In times like these a strong union such as BASSA is invaluable.Be under no illusions,without strong representation the company would decimate the pay and conditions of it's employees,citing the current trading and economic conditions as the justification.When the marketplace improves,as it eventually will,conditions and pay will not increase accordingly.Lots of emotive points in each camp,pro and anti union.As an independent i strongly suggest that all BA cabin crew support each other and their union representatives and present a united and powerfull front against a management,hell bent on cutting their standard of living.Strength in numbers has never been more important,forget the in-fighting and show unity,it is the only way to protect yourselves.

[Da Dog]

For all those cabin crew on here who think they are sacrosanct, please answer the honest and genuine questions I have asked sometimes more than once, instead of just launching into rants

You know who you are Ozzie,pc767, and now am i bothered

1. BASSA can offer alleviation, its been demonstrated, why did they not do so during the recent disruption?

2. How can BA negotiate with BASSA when they immediately call for strike action? This is akin to negotiating with a gun at your head.

3. Do you really believe that BASSA can "fine" you?

Most of us do an excellent job and the customers keep comming back because of the professionalism of the crew.

Except perhaps the 3000+ passengers inconvenienced last week by the 2 night rule. Who is professional now?

I just cant believe people have the gaul to question union agreements

I think everyone has the right to ask questions during times of disruption and even more so when the company is burning £2.5 million in cash, BASSA and its dogma have cost the company a fortune in the last 7 days, I am sorry you can't see that.

Lastly its a public forum so in general we can discuss, within reason what we want. I have said it before, if you don't want to partake in a sensible debate, if you want some mutual backslapping, then stick to the BASSA forum

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by am i bothered

At the end of the day the crew pay their subs, they vote for their representatives and they make decisions at union meetings. So attacking Bassa is attacking the 11500 or so who make up the union. The union is not one person or a comittee its the whole membership.

So how do we square that statement with the last strike ballot? I'm sure you recall how the BASSA reps pushed for a strike ballot, it was passed on a show of hands of around 200 hardliners at a union meeting and the remaining 11300 members were given a three-line whip to support the ballot or else you'd all be eating cold baked beans out of the can in a damp B & B next time you go to work (or so you would be according to that infantile 'Diary of a crew member' document). Hardly democratic, was it?

By the way, can you tell us all why four of the esteemed BASSA reps have been suspended and why, if the union are so keen on naming and shaming, have the union refused to identify them?

[PC767]

My answers to Da Dog.

1) You have previously part answered this question. The company have let it be known that there is a fight on the horizon. There is distrust and a lack of confidence in a layer of fly by night management and their promises. Maybe the new ICE leader can restore trust and confidence. But in the meantime BASSA is holding its cards close to its chest. The last major allieviation to cabin crew t&cs was in 2001 when a crew member was temporarily removed from the aircraft. That allegedly temporary measure has not yet been recinded. The entire senior management team has altered since then and were not aware that a temporary measure was still in place. I don't agree with the way the great hot towel debacle has been handled but I can see BASSA's point. It isn't about hot towels - it is about increasing cabin service whilst the temporary allieviation remains unresolved.

Allieviations are also about give and take. You are correct to say that BASSA has given other allieviations, which have been taken for granted. It seems BASSA have been repaid with a lack of consultation or even information on other matters and reps being taken into the harassment and bullying process by managers. The entire climate stinks and somebody will have to make the first move to bring cordiality back. I'm sorry it wasn't BASSA this time but I'm not a rep and I don't have the full facts.

2) The chairperson at BASSA has been replaced since the last strike action. I don't believe such a threat exists. I believe that BASSA want to be involved in finding a solution. The rubbish which was printed in the press when columbus was uncovered came from UNITE HQ, not BASSA. UNITE has recently made grumbles over salary increases, or the lack of, on behalf of all unions affiliated to UNITE. Indeed the NSP demanding a payrise is a general one involving the heads of all unions at BA, so presumably this includes BALPA. There is undoubtable a small core of cabin crew who shout strike at the drop of a hat, but in my opinion they need a proverbal slap. BASSA has not endorsed the cores opinion and is willing to talk if the company is. The company declined to acknowledge that columbus even existed at the NSP after the 'leak.'

3) No.

[TightSlot]

Sorry to intrude

Just a quick reminder to ask you all to continue keeping this thread on the rails. When posting, please remember to be courteous and respectful of others opinions, as well as ensuring that your posts are 'on-topic'. For example, a flame-war between Flight Crew and Cabin Crew is unlikely to benefit anybody and is by definition, un-winnable by either party.

Mods haven't yet intruded on this thread, and we'd love to keep it that way.

[EYXW]

am I bother wrote:

At the end of the day the crew pay their subs, they vote for their representatives and they make decisions at union meetings. So attacking Bassa is attacking the 11500 or so who make up the union. The union is not one person or a comittee its the whole membership.

So I think its about time people concentrated on the issues that affect them and minded their own business.

I just cant believe people have the gaul to question union agreements. A union whom they do not even belong to.

I would humbly like to point out that the company destructive nature that one of our Unions has decided to follow of late has something to do with every one of us. So I am more than happy to see representatives of every role adding the 2 pennies to this forum.

Also, I assume you know how Unionism works - in terms of rep elections I mean - I used to work for one and I can assure you that the result of elections is hardly ever representative of the majority rather a result of heavy whipping from the controlling factions.

As for questioning Union agreements - are you serious that is the right of every member!

That aside - I agree people shouldn't shout for glee at others misfortune - however the WW & EF agreements are out of date and make worse the situation, financially, BA currently finds itself in.

I'm sorry but we are all going to have to work harder for the foreseeable future if our employer is to survive, BASSA however continues to stick its fingers in its ears and pretend nothing is happening (globally). That is what really gets some peoples goat, not some misconception that people are jealous of your pay -quite right you should keep it, but give a little to - it's not the glory days anymore.

I myself am a grounded Dolly and as much as I enjoyed some of our terms - often I found them to be far too restrictive - benefiting us to the detriment of the customer.