BA and Project Columbus II
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've done a few of those positioning sectors, jolly pleasant they are too. Sadly they only occur when service switches from 3 to 4 days or vice versa at the transition between the summer and winter schedules, hence the arrangement does not last 'quite a while'.
There seems to be a lot of hysteria about people taking a pay cut but as far as I'm aware nobodys been asked to take a pay cut. A significant chunk of those savings oulf be achieved by desisting from screwing the company.
There seems to be a lot of hysteria about people taking a pay cut but as far as I'm aware nobodys been asked to take a pay cut. A significant chunk of those savings oulf be achieved by desisting from screwing the company.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: uk
Age: 55
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no official announcement regarding cabin crew pay cuts at BA but from the proposed changes tabled by BA to the unions (and I've seen the list) it equates to a pay cut of about 30%
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder what would happen if BA suggested a 30% pay cut for crew on the old contract and a 30% pay increase for crew on the new contract?
40K for a CSD would still be good money - and main crew on 14K would be happy with another 4K!!!!
40K for a CSD would still be good money - and main crew on 14K would be happy with another 4K!!!!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not at all supportive of a salary that is only average. I'd like to see a premium salary paid to our crew. We are a premium airline delivering a premium product. No problem.
To me the restrictive working practices are just absolutely bonkers and have not gone with the times.
It frustrates the hell out of me ''on the day'', phoning the unions/managers etc.
BASSA refusing flights to depart because of having to work ''two down'' and insisting on zone closures therefore downgrading fare paying customers.
That when the real culprit is snow! Not the company.
(one crew member admitted that 2 of her friends used the snow as an excuse not to come to work, they were more than capable to report since she did out of the same area.)
If you can justify it then fair enough but to me it doesn't make sense. You are the masters of where cost savings are going to come from. I'd suggest looking at working practices and getting a proper system in place that is transparent.
I think a load of crew will be yearning to be masters of their own destiny/life in BA.
To me the restrictive working practices are just absolutely bonkers and have not gone with the times.
It frustrates the hell out of me ''on the day'', phoning the unions/managers etc.
BASSA refusing flights to depart because of having to work ''two down'' and insisting on zone closures therefore downgrading fare paying customers.
That when the real culprit is snow! Not the company.
(one crew member admitted that 2 of her friends used the snow as an excuse not to come to work, they were more than capable to report since she did out of the same area.)
If you can justify it then fair enough but to me it doesn't make sense. You are the masters of where cost savings are going to come from. I'd suggest looking at working practices and getting a proper system in place that is transparent.
I think a load of crew will be yearning to be masters of their own destiny/life in BA.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 553
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PC767
IfCE is not only still recruiting new cabin crew but also starting 5 new entrant courses in April. At the same time established crew are sat at home on full pay, below 900hrs, on weeks of 24hr availability. Unused. Our department costs are too high and we need savings. What savings are achieved by paying established crew to stay at home? And to continue bringing new crew online?
Originally Posted by FlyerUK
It's time to start supporting each other and stop bashing the perceived terms and conditions because the cabin crew will fight this and will fight to the bitter end.
I've heard many times from our cabin crew they would rather the company go to the wall than take the 30% pay cut BA want.
I've heard many times from our cabin crew they would rather the company go to the wall than take the 30% pay cut BA want.
Do you see any correlation between the events described in the above quotes?
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: uk
Age: 55
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I certainly can see a correlation between the to quotes however one is coal and one crew, you can't run an operation as large as BA's on 5 new entrant courses, BA are predicted to be short of crew during the summer so the new entrant courses are probably to cover the short fall.
I'm not saying a strike is a fore gone conclusion by any stretch of the imagination.
Productivity is one way to go when saving money at BA, athough long haul cabin crew who are full time are pretty much up to their 900 hours as it is !!
As for leaving base with less crew than we should have, it's part of our agreement and I would ask, would the pilots go one down on a HKG where there are four flight crew ? according to scheme you could but it's part of your ageements too !
I'm not saying a strike is a fore gone conclusion by any stretch of the imagination.
Productivity is one way to go when saving money at BA, athough long haul cabin crew who are full time are pretty much up to their 900 hours as it is !!
As for leaving base with less crew than we should have, it's part of our agreement and I would ask, would the pilots go one down on a HKG where there are four flight crew ? according to scheme you could but it's part of your ageements too !
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: uk
Age: 55
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hot wings
Not sure where you get your figures from but for a CSD they are way off the mark taking 30% from the average CSD salary would leave them far below the £40K you quote.
Don't listen to galley FM when it comes to how much CSD's are paid.
Not sure where you get your figures from but for a CSD they are way off the mark taking 30% from the average CSD salary would leave them far below the £40K you quote.
Don't listen to galley FM when it comes to how much CSD's are paid.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would a flight crew go one down to HKG? Yes, and they have done too. They've also turned round and come back 24 hours later when it's been needed. Compare that with closing cabins and forcing aircraft to fly home empty and you'll see why some parts of your agreements are in managements firing line.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: uk
Age: 55
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think when it comes to flying aircraft home empty I assume you are referring to the required two local nights when diverted on long range, I think this agreement should be looked at and it will be because cabin crew just want to get home too !!
Our problem with working one / two down from base is, if we agreed to do this it would happen all the time as for some reason BA never manage to get cabin crew crewing levels right and end up being short of crew !!
As for working crew down from overseas we've always been able to do this and down to minimum crew IE. 12 on the 747 and 10 on the 777 and 6 on the 767. so unless there is an issue with getting two local nights we do not have flights operating with zones closed or empty back to base. I and many of my fellow cabin crew do this on a fairly regular basis due to sickness etc, I'm in HKG and will be working one down back to LHR, in Jan I operated SIN-SYD-SIN one down due to a shortage of locally based crew in SIN.
We did go through a period of "ferry" flights to destinations with pilots only but that was nothing to do with the cabin crew agreements it was because BA manpower got it wrong with the number of cabin crew they needed on worldwide, thankfully they have it right at the moment but are predicted to be short again in the summer !!
Quite often BA elects to "ferry" without seeing if the cabin crew can have an alleviation to work one down from the unions
Sadly there have in the past been cases where the cabin crew have been flexible and been given alleviation to work outside agreements with the promise of some sort of payment only to find our management have done a u turn and decided not to pay, it is any wonder cabin crew are very reluctant to be flexible with this type of history from our managers ?
As for flight crew leaving one down I must admit I've never seen this, although you do have a forced draft system which I guess helps, and I'm pretty sure your management don't do a u turn when it comes to the compensation for working one down or forced draft ?
The reason we have such ridged agreements and they are collective so the BA has agreed to them as well,this is because we have a max of 16 individuals have personalities from being analytical to the hysterical and it would be impossible to get everyone singing from the same song sheet without the agreements in place.
When it comes to the flight crew there's only 2,3 or 4 who generally are fairly analytical and singing from the same song sheet !!
One of the things BA want is to flex not only our trips but our days off too and unlike forced draft there will be no compensation for having to work on a planned day off !!
This means if you check in for a HKG and they are short on the BOM they move you onto the BOM to prevent a stand by delaying the BOM. This will not only flex the trip but the days off as well and subsequent trips will be flexed indefinitely so you can never plan days in the UK !!
Our problem with working one / two down from base is, if we agreed to do this it would happen all the time as for some reason BA never manage to get cabin crew crewing levels right and end up being short of crew !!
As for working crew down from overseas we've always been able to do this and down to minimum crew IE. 12 on the 747 and 10 on the 777 and 6 on the 767. so unless there is an issue with getting two local nights we do not have flights operating with zones closed or empty back to base. I and many of my fellow cabin crew do this on a fairly regular basis due to sickness etc, I'm in HKG and will be working one down back to LHR, in Jan I operated SIN-SYD-SIN one down due to a shortage of locally based crew in SIN.
We did go through a period of "ferry" flights to destinations with pilots only but that was nothing to do with the cabin crew agreements it was because BA manpower got it wrong with the number of cabin crew they needed on worldwide, thankfully they have it right at the moment but are predicted to be short again in the summer !!
Quite often BA elects to "ferry" without seeing if the cabin crew can have an alleviation to work one down from the unions
Sadly there have in the past been cases where the cabin crew have been flexible and been given alleviation to work outside agreements with the promise of some sort of payment only to find our management have done a u turn and decided not to pay, it is any wonder cabin crew are very reluctant to be flexible with this type of history from our managers ?
As for flight crew leaving one down I must admit I've never seen this, although you do have a forced draft system which I guess helps, and I'm pretty sure your management don't do a u turn when it comes to the compensation for working one down or forced draft ?
The reason we have such ridged agreements and they are collective so the BA has agreed to them as well,this is because we have a max of 16 individuals have personalities from being analytical to the hysterical and it would be impossible to get everyone singing from the same song sheet without the agreements in place.
When it comes to the flight crew there's only 2,3 or 4 who generally are fairly analytical and singing from the same song sheet !!
One of the things BA want is to flex not only our trips but our days off too and unlike forced draft there will be no compensation for having to work on a planned day off !!
This means if you check in for a HKG and they are short on the BOM they move you onto the BOM to prevent a stand by delaying the BOM. This will not only flex the trip but the days off as well and subsequent trips will be flexed indefinitely so you can never plan days in the UK !!
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well we're starting to see the light in terms of some of the inflexibilities but why must cabin crew expect a payment for every eventuality? Why can they not issue their own alleviations when it is apparent the problems are beyond BA's control? There was really no justification for spending two local nights in Prestwick after the snow diversions, so why not just come home without an expectation of cash? Do you recall the SARS crisis in Asia? BA were desperate to keep the HKG flights operating, so much so that they chartered an A330 from Cathay to fly the crew directly from the inbound aircraft to Macau so they could slip there. The journey to Macau was actually shorter than the journey to the crew hotel in Hong Kong! BALPA agreed that the pilots would operate the new agreement, BASSA demanded £1000 per crew member. Some might call that holding a gun to the companys head.
I've seen it plenty of times. HKGs leaving LHR 3 man because the 4th has got stuck in traffic, and quite commonly flights returning home from the far east with either 3 man crews because of sickness/compassionate reasons or the 4th man robbed from the next days flight to cover the shortfall. 2 crew Miamis are regularly delayed beyond the time a 3rd pilot should be called out, but they almost always go 2 man. It's not great but we get on with it because it's not usually the companys fault, nor do we get any sort of payment for it. I'm not sure why forced draft has crept into your points or how it relates in any way to the discussion except to say that most pilots would rather the company did not have the ability to do it and it isn't just some sort of ex gratia payment the company hand out. As for management, I wouldn't trust ours any more than you trust yours, which is why we don't enter the murky world of "I'll do this if you pay me that".
As for flight crew leaving one down I must admit I've never seen this, although you do have a forced draft system which I guess helps, and I'm pretty sure your management don't do a u turn when it comes to the compensation for working one down or forced draft ?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can I get clarification on something please?
If you (on WW) work a crew member down, you get a payment, right? (and a pretty healthy payment at that, I believe)
My question then is: why would you still insist in closing a zone/cabin? Surely the extra payment should make up for the lack of the crew member?
Also, the minimum minimum crew level on the B777 is 7. Only in extreme circumstances, and never from base. From base, minimum is 8 on a 4-class and 9 on a 3-class. Just thought I'd clarify that.
Gg
If you (on WW) work a crew member down, you get a payment, right? (and a pretty healthy payment at that, I believe)
My question then is: why would you still insist in closing a zone/cabin? Surely the extra payment should make up for the lack of the crew member?
Also, the minimum minimum crew level on the B777 is 7. Only in extreme circumstances, and never from base. From base, minimum is 8 on a 4-class and 9 on a 3-class. Just thought I'd clarify that.
Gg
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: uk
Age: 55
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gg
the payment for working crew down is only paid when the zone is not closed
if the zone is closed we don't get any payment.
Cabin crew ever leave base with 8/7 on the 777
I don't remember the £1000 payment for poscab from HKG to Macau but then again maybe I just missed that !!
The biggest obstacle cabin crew have is our management's ability to take take take, the only way they seam to listen to the cabin crew community is when it involves money !! If there as a mutual trust things would be for better.
I do beg to differ with forced draft as this is, while not always convenient it does pay well and is part of the pilot agreements.
The reason I brought it up, to say we all have agreements that generate extra payments to keep the company flying.
the payment for working crew down is only paid when the zone is not closed
if the zone is closed we don't get any payment.
Cabin crew ever leave base with 8/7 on the 777
I don't remember the £1000 payment for poscab from HKG to Macau but then again maybe I just missed that !!
The biggest obstacle cabin crew have is our management's ability to take take take, the only way they seam to listen to the cabin crew community is when it involves money !! If there as a mutual trust things would be for better.
I do beg to differ with forced draft as this is, while not always convenient it does pay well and is part of the pilot agreements.
The reason I brought it up, to say we all have agreements that generate extra payments to keep the company flying.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I still don't see the relevance of forced draft to your argument. Notwitshtanding that it is rarely convenient to be called on a day off and told you must come into work at a certain time, draft is simply a fancy name for overtime. If the company want people to work on their days off they have to pay them, simple as that. Even cabin crew get that. If people are kept away from home for extra days because of disruption then they get paid overtime for the extra time they are away. There's nothing nefarious about it and similar arrangement exist in most other airlines. What doesn't exist in other airlines is cabin crew demanding two local nights after a diversion for no other reason than they can. I suppose pilots in BA could demand two local nights as per their agreement in order to pocket an extra days overtime, but they don't. They'd rather get the operation back up and running then get home. This aim doesn't seem to extend to cabin crew.
PS The flight crew overtime rate is time and a quarter. Whats the cabin crew rate?
PS The flight crew overtime rate is time and a quarter. Whats the cabin crew rate?
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 553
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by FlyerUK69
Quite often BA elects to "ferry" without seeing if the cabin crew can have an alleviation to work one down from the unions
It - Is - Not - Up - To - The - Union!
If it's legal, you can do it. Operational stuff takes priority.
This is why BA will have such a big, big problem. When the prevailing mindset is that the airline is run for the benefit of the union.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This means if you check in for a HKG and they are short on the BOM they move you onto the BOM to prevent a stand by delaying the BOM. This will not only flex the trip but the days off as well and subsequent trips will be flexed indefinitely so you can never plan days in the UK !!
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The extra payment for cabin crew working down is not per day but per sector. So if working one down, having received the payment on a LHR-BAH the cabin crew then receive a second extra payment on the BAH-DOH which is a 30 minute flight time and the seat belts are on for 25 minutes of it. I believe the extra sector payment for the "extra work" on this one short sector alone costs BA in excess of £3,000. I do not know if the cabin crew get two more extra payments on the return sectors the next day.
On the other side of the coin I believe it is necessary to belong to a Union. I have little trust for management and I think very highly of many of the BA cabin crew I fly with. I just think that some of them need to realise how militant BASSA are and how certain agreements need to change. The cabin crew also seem to have a perception of not being appreciated. If they really were not appreciated the job would not attract all the professionals like ex teachers, nurses, qualified aircraft ground engineers, and even an ex London underground tube train driver I came across a while ago who gave up his £36k per annum plus bonuses job to become a BA steward. The cabin crew all seem terrified of being fined by the union if some pilot gets stuck in a hold or does not get a stand on arrival and exceeds their maximum hours. Do people ever get fined or is this a myth?
On the other side of the coin I believe it is necessary to belong to a Union. I have little trust for management and I think very highly of many of the BA cabin crew I fly with. I just think that some of them need to realise how militant BASSA are and how certain agreements need to change. The cabin crew also seem to have a perception of not being appreciated. If they really were not appreciated the job would not attract all the professionals like ex teachers, nurses, qualified aircraft ground engineers, and even an ex London underground tube train driver I came across a while ago who gave up his £36k per annum plus bonuses job to become a BA steward. The cabin crew all seem terrified of being fined by the union if some pilot gets stuck in a hold or does not get a stand on arrival and exceeds their maximum hours. Do people ever get fined or is this a myth?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
there is much speak on here about box payments/cat turnarounds and all the other payments we claw off the company. may I just say here that those of us on the new contract are not paid above market rate. when you average out over a year we earn £1500 - £1600 a month! and that includes longhaul. I really don't think that is above market rate for a full service airline
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
we earn £1500 - £1600 a month! and that includes longhaul. I really don't think that is above market rate for a full service airline
What does a Virgin/ BMI steward(ess) take home?
Half the problem with BA is the fact that on a jumbo there are 4 other steward(esses) earning at least double that.
The way out of this without losing money is to propose working efficiencies to the company - so you get to choose where productivity changes are made.
You just have to get past the Bassa brick wall!