BA and Project Columbus II
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Intransigence is not the same as strength. If BASSA were strong you wouldn't have the new contract, Single Fleet at LGW, or hundreds of 11 month temps (recruited directly to long haul) just waiting for the call to replace you.
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Yes, but the airline might have a fighting chance of lasting longer than 2 years further.
It is hard when the market says you are worth less than you think you are, but the market can't be beaten in the long-run. The price signal is there, and the costs are greater than the competition.
And yes, it does equally apply to the legions of managers whose presence is somewhat questionable as well.
It is hard when the market says you are worth less than you think you are, but the market can't be beaten in the long-run. The price signal is there, and the costs are greater than the competition.
And yes, it does equally apply to the legions of managers whose presence is somewhat questionable as well.
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And if it wasn't for BASSA I would have the same crappy working conditions like BMI and Virgin crew have.
The problem BASSA has now is that the peripheral operations have either been axed or transformed and they have no more sacrificial lambs. The IFS department has been transformed into IFCE, with a new head who knows that costs savings, not empire building, is what will keep her in a job. So where does BASSA go from here? They could try to call a strike, but then last time they called a strike BA was making pots of cash and even with a 96% vote for a strike they still had to capitulate. Would they get the same support now if people thought their jobs were in jeopardy? They could try a work to rule, but there's an ever growing army of temps who could come back to fill the shortages left by that. Where do BASSA go from here?
CM,
But would anyone spot the difference?
They could try a work to rule
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Re Heat. Your comments re-enforce the middle management view at BA, provided during in-touch days, that BA cabin crew will be responsible for bankrupting the company within the next 18-24 months. Scare mongering nonsense.
Post 1997 rates of pay for BA Cabin Crew are at current market rates. Pre 1997 cabin crew are moving, if not alreadythere, into the majority. As a post 1997 Purser I earn less that the pre 1997 main crew I work with. I am market rate. Columbus was around when record profits were being made and is a paln which will see full benefits by 2011. Is this addressing todays crisis?
The YYZ event may well have occurred, I've no reason to doubt this, but it has not yet been confirmed that BASSA are responsible. I cannot see why BASSA should be responsible. The crew member was willing to help the company, not the union so why would she need to speak to the union?
Post 1997 rates of pay for BA Cabin Crew are at current market rates. Pre 1997 cabin crew are moving, if not alreadythere, into the majority. As a post 1997 Purser I earn less that the pre 1997 main crew I work with. I am market rate. Columbus was around when record profits were being made and is a paln which will see full benefits by 2011. Is this addressing todays crisis?
The YYZ event may well have occurred, I've no reason to doubt this, but it has not yet been confirmed that BASSA are responsible. I cannot see why BASSA should be responsible. The crew member was willing to help the company, not the union so why would she need to speak to the union?
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BA cabin crew have industry leading T&Cs.
If I remeber correctly part of the pilots pay deal was a benchmarking exercise, resulting in the exventual deal ensuring the BA pilots package overall was "industry leading" (all be it just).
I also remember some contributors on here saying if BA pilots loose, the whole industry looses.
Whilst I understand that the majority of contributors here have a vested interest in keeping BA flying, and so keeping their mortgages paid (at the end of the day when you come down to it you've got to look after number 1), you can't knock BA cabin crew at LHR for keeping their T&C's industry leading too.
Some of the agreements could be changed/modified to make LHR more profitable without taking money out of the crews pockets, and still save money for the airline.
I think we all know that BA wants more than that. And why wouldn't they? They're in business to make as much money as possible.
Driving down the bar and saving on employment costs in any industry is the job of those in charge. It's the job of the unions to ensure T&C's improve or at least stay the same.
That's why I suggest most BA pilots are members of BALPA.
I hope BASSA has the good sense to "negotiate" with BA and do the best deal for everyone possible.
If the new fleet ends up on LGW T&Cs, BA crew will no longer be the benchmark, and no-one I'm sure wants that to happen.
Top T&Cs attract top people.
If I remeber correctly part of the pilots pay deal was a benchmarking exercise, resulting in the exventual deal ensuring the BA pilots package overall was "industry leading" (all be it just).
I also remember some contributors on here saying if BA pilots loose, the whole industry looses.
Whilst I understand that the majority of contributors here have a vested interest in keeping BA flying, and so keeping their mortgages paid (at the end of the day when you come down to it you've got to look after number 1), you can't knock BA cabin crew at LHR for keeping their T&C's industry leading too.
Some of the agreements could be changed/modified to make LHR more profitable without taking money out of the crews pockets, and still save money for the airline.
I think we all know that BA wants more than that. And why wouldn't they? They're in business to make as much money as possible.
Driving down the bar and saving on employment costs in any industry is the job of those in charge. It's the job of the unions to ensure T&C's improve or at least stay the same.
That's why I suggest most BA pilots are members of BALPA.
I hope BASSA has the good sense to "negotiate" with BA and do the best deal for everyone possible.
If the new fleet ends up on LGW T&Cs, BA crew will no longer be the benchmark, and no-one I'm sure wants that to happen.
Top T&Cs attract top people.
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Post 1997 rates of pay for BA Cabin Crew are at current market rates.
The main problems come in with the rest of the agreements (ie the variable pay) and the scheduling restrictions in both EF and WW.
The variable pay (WW=box payments, overtime and allowances; EF=overtime, allowances and STR payments) easily double the basic pay.
The Scheduling restrictions in WW result in cancelled flights and flights operating empty while pax are accommodated or re-booked on other airlines because of 'needing' 2 local nights 'rest'.
The Scheduling restrictions in EF result in needing numerous extra crews sitting around in case a flight arrives 2 minutes late at which point the company has to hose the crew down with cash to reduce the turnaround to under 2 hours or has recrew the cabin as the reduction would be too great (even though the flight crew can stay on board).
According to the CAA, BA cabin crew costs are DOUBLE those of the next highest paid UK cabin crew (Virgin).
Edited to add:
I know that the lack of choice of work has a lot to do with it as well, but the variablility of pay as a function of destination greatly contributes to the 20 sick days per year per cabin crew member (vs 7 for flight crew).
Last trip I flew with a purser who said she would NOT be working this Xmas. When asked if she had leave, she just looked at me and smiled.
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Originally Posted by PC767
The crew member was willing to help the company, not the union so why would she need to speak to the union?
Originally Posted by WLITS
Top T&Cs attract top people.
Ozzie O - Call me a stickler but you to have to make a case before you can rest it. You appear to be taking the traditional route of insulting anybody who dares to criticise and hoping that will silence them rather than answering the criticism.
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Post 1997 rates of pay for BA Cabin Crew are at current market rates. Pre 1997 cabin crew are moving, if not alreadythere, into the majority. As a post 1997 Purser I earn less that the pre 1997 main crew I work with. I am market rate.
Total package most definitely is not.
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Basic new starter pay at LHR is c£11400.
Basic new starter pay at LGW is c£10500.
Increments are over 8 years.
Both subject to the same rules for taxation as any other ground based pay. These figures compare and in some cases are less than other carriers. Easyjet cabin crew, for instance, earn a higher basic than BA cabin crew but recieve less variable pay. At the end of the month the two paypackets are comparable. A comparison with Emirates was made by our management. Their cabin crew earn a lower wage than BA cabin crew. The comparison was quietly dropped when it was pointed out, by ex Emirates crew, that their pay had been tax free, their accomodation had been provided and that they were chauffered to work and back. Add these benefits and then compare wages.
Box payments and overtime on long haul are only available on a minority of flights. Payments on short haul I cannot comment upon. If every trip I flew recieved a box payment and overtime then I would be rich and the company would have a point. But I don't.
The point is there are a small minority of high wages within the cabin crew community here at BA. They have been here 30 plus years, remained loyal and earned their pay. Let the company make them an offer worth considering, as happened with 400 plus managers recently, and in a one off payment BA could lower long term costs. Of course BA won't do this so the crew will dig in. I would too, why should they suffer after so many years loyalty to the company.
Agreements are another matter. I will not argue that there should be some changes. I will maintain that changes cannot be adhoc, they should be properly negotiated and until such time the old agreements should remain in place. I am happy that BASSA and BA are now in negotiations.
Basic new starter pay at LGW is c£10500.
Increments are over 8 years.
Both subject to the same rules for taxation as any other ground based pay. These figures compare and in some cases are less than other carriers. Easyjet cabin crew, for instance, earn a higher basic than BA cabin crew but recieve less variable pay. At the end of the month the two paypackets are comparable. A comparison with Emirates was made by our management. Their cabin crew earn a lower wage than BA cabin crew. The comparison was quietly dropped when it was pointed out, by ex Emirates crew, that their pay had been tax free, their accomodation had been provided and that they were chauffered to work and back. Add these benefits and then compare wages.
Box payments and overtime on long haul are only available on a minority of flights. Payments on short haul I cannot comment upon. If every trip I flew recieved a box payment and overtime then I would be rich and the company would have a point. But I don't.
The point is there are a small minority of high wages within the cabin crew community here at BA. They have been here 30 plus years, remained loyal and earned their pay. Let the company make them an offer worth considering, as happened with 400 plus managers recently, and in a one off payment BA could lower long term costs. Of course BA won't do this so the crew will dig in. I would too, why should they suffer after so many years loyalty to the company.
Agreements are another matter. I will not argue that there should be some changes. I will maintain that changes cannot be adhoc, they should be properly negotiated and until such time the old agreements should remain in place. I am happy that BASSA and BA are now in negotiations.
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HM - Sorry which posting I deleted? Please expand I haven't deleted anything.
CM - Sorry if I have insulted anyone not my intention at all. Maybe those that feel insulted can stick up for themselves I don't see them complaining? Unless of course I have missed something and you have been elected a spokesperson?
CM - Sorry if I have insulted anyone not my intention at all. Maybe those that feel insulted can stick up for themselves I don't see them complaining? Unless of course I have missed something and you have been elected a spokesperson?
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If the new fleet ends up on LGW T&Cs, BA crew will no longer be the benchmark, and no-one I'm sure wants that to happen.
Top T&Cs attract top people.
Top T&Cs attract top people.
.
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"Basic new starter pay at LHR is c£11400.
Basic new starter pay at LGW is c£10500."
So, what are your contracted hours per week?
If I assume (waiting to be corrected) 37.5 hours per week, then on the minimum, this wage equates to £11203.58 (if over the age of 22).
18 - 21 @ £9209.23.
National Minimum Wage - BERR
If the company are offering a staring pay of £10500 at LGW and you are over 22, then the company is breaking the law!
Basic new starter pay at LGW is c£10500."
So, what are your contracted hours per week?
If I assume (waiting to be corrected) 37.5 hours per week, then on the minimum, this wage equates to £11203.58 (if over the age of 22).
18 - 21 @ £9209.23.
National Minimum Wage - BERR
If the company are offering a staring pay of £10500 at LGW and you are over 22, then the company is breaking the law!
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On a good month LGW crew may take home a salary in line with LHR , but
+70% of LGW crew have their names on the transfer list for LHR.
This pretty much says it all.
+70% of LGW crew have their names on the transfer list for LHR.
This pretty much says it all.
Last edited by simon773; 3rd Mar 2009 at 23:05.
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Keel beam. The figures are the advertised starter rates. They do not include variable pay.
It was pointed out that variables double pay. Well that isn't the case but they go some way towards making wages livable (and legal).
Some airlines have higher basic pay but lower variables. Swings and roundabouts. My wage remains market rate when the P60 arrives.
It was pointed out that variables double pay. Well that isn't the case but they go some way towards making wages livable (and legal).
Some airlines have higher basic pay but lower variables. Swings and roundabouts. My wage remains market rate when the P60 arrives.