BA and Project Columbus II
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I don't think bad of pilots at all. I wouldn't mind being one but I neither have enough money nor youth on my side.
I don't particularily like people reporting one another willy-nilly either but as a community if we are going to stick to agreements and rules we must know what they are, why they exist (if possible), and adhere to them. A crew member who doesn't know the rules, causes problems to ensure what isn't required should be had and disadvantages passengers into the bargin, makes the rest of the community's job even harder when trying to convince those of you who believe we are unreasonable or away with fairies that we are not.
I don't particularily like people reporting one another willy-nilly either but as a community if we are going to stick to agreements and rules we must know what they are, why they exist (if possible), and adhere to them. A crew member who doesn't know the rules, causes problems to ensure what isn't required should be had and disadvantages passengers into the bargin, makes the rest of the community's job even harder when trying to convince those of you who believe we are unreasonable or away with fairies that we are not.
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Sorry DaDog, but I think you may be mistaken.
As I'm sure you know, extension of Flying Duty Period by in-flight rest is a legal method to allow crews to carry out a long duty.
The reason for "Horizontal rest" rather than just sitting in a seat is because if rest is taken in a bunk then FDP can be extended by 50% of the rest taken. If it's taken in a seat then it's only (I think) 30% of rest period can be used as an extension. I'd have to get the books out to get the actual figures, but that sounds about right.
You say you had to have 3hrs rest in a bunk? Someone needed to extend their last landings by 90 minutes. I thought it had to be planned in advance though, like a Level 2.
It's a CAP371 (ie: Legal) thing by the sounds of it, but without all the details I'm not going to elaborate. I can however pretty well guarantee it had nothing to do with BASSA. They may be experts in duty avoidance, but not in FTL schemes.
Also strikes me as more than a little odd that your cabin crew seem to be responsible for their own Flight Time Limitation figures?
That's why I think something doesn't quite stack up...
As I'm sure you know, extension of Flying Duty Period by in-flight rest is a legal method to allow crews to carry out a long duty.
The reason for "Horizontal rest" rather than just sitting in a seat is because if rest is taken in a bunk then FDP can be extended by 50% of the rest taken. If it's taken in a seat then it's only (I think) 30% of rest period can be used as an extension. I'd have to get the books out to get the actual figures, but that sounds about right.
You say you had to have 3hrs rest in a bunk? Someone needed to extend their last landings by 90 minutes. I thought it had to be planned in advance though, like a Level 2.
It's a CAP371 (ie: Legal) thing by the sounds of it, but without all the details I'm not going to elaborate. I can however pretty well guarantee it had nothing to do with BASSA. They may be experts in duty avoidance, but not in FTL schemes.
Also strikes me as more than a little odd that your cabin crew seem to be responsible for their own Flight Time Limitation figures?
That's why I think something doesn't quite stack up...
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I can however pretty well guarantee it had nothing to do with BASSA. They may be experts in duty avoidance, but not in FTL schemes.
Most CSDs use their Bassa produced guides to work out their industrial and scheme hours. The Bassa guides just tell them what the sheme and industrial limit is for every flight number - they seem to have little idea how to use JPMs to work out actual limits on the day, which are based on actual flight times.
I've recently had 2 trips where the CSD refused point blank to accept my calculation of the duty day, (one was where the CSD was insistent that bunk rest could extend industrial timings beyond scheme, and that industrial limits always override scheme!!!!)
One was corrected only when he called Bassa downroute who explained the correct use of the hours, and the other only accepted my instruction when I took her into the CRC at the end of the flight and had it confirmed by the DOMs.
The lack of knowledge of JPMs was astonishing (never mind the fact the Captain's input carried so little weight).
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Classic:
If that is genuinely the case, then that's scary!
It's alarming that the word of the Captain carries so little weight. That would be a disciplinary matter in other airlines. BA must be s**t scared of BASSA if they allow that sort of thing to go on. You have my sympathy Sir!
If that is genuinely the case, then that's scary!
It's alarming that the word of the Captain carries so little weight. That would be a disciplinary matter in other airlines. BA must be s**t scared of BASSA if they allow that sort of thing to go on. You have my sympathy Sir!
Join Date: Jan 2008
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On the return flight, ex Toronto, First Class was fully booked with full fare passengers, as was Club. But there was a problem with how to operate the service with the shortage of cabin crew. Then a passenger who was a BA cabin crew member offered to operate. This opportunity was jumped at by the YYZ ground staff as a way to operate with a First Class section. Phone calls were made but BASSA was adamant that because the flight had operated ex LHR with a closed First Class section it would have to operate back to LHR with a closed First Class section regardless of how many cabin crew were on board.
Consequently all First Class Passengers were put in Club, some Club passengers were downgraded. The loss of revenue to BA was estimated at £40-60,000. On top of this there would have been considerable admin involved in refunds and letters at a time when there was already major disruption.
To any fair minded person this utter inflexibility of BASSA is akin to industrial sabotage. BASSA deprived BA of significant premium revenue and alienated passengers. There was no gain to anybody. This is not what people join a union for. In times of extremes, whether it be disruption, 911, or weather, companies need some flexibility. Yet BA have their hands tied by BASSA making it very difficult to compete profitably with other airlines. It is time BASSA changed.
Consequently all First Class Passengers were put in Club, some Club passengers were downgraded. The loss of revenue to BA was estimated at £40-60,000. On top of this there would have been considerable admin involved in refunds and letters at a time when there was already major disruption.
To any fair minded person this utter inflexibility of BASSA is akin to industrial sabotage. BASSA deprived BA of significant premium revenue and alienated passengers. There was no gain to anybody. This is not what people join a union for. In times of extremes, whether it be disruption, 911, or weather, companies need some flexibility. Yet BA have their hands tied by BASSA making it very difficult to compete profitably with other airlines. It is time BASSA changed.
I have a lot of respect for BA cabin crew, but BASSA need a rocket shoved up their backsides.
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Ozzie
It looks like the flight left YYZ on 3rd Feb 2009. I suspect it was the BA 092.The details related were taken from a pilot website. These include the the name of the passengering cabin crew member who offered to operate. She is the wife of the pilot who wrote the post. His post also supplied the name of the BA ops manager in YYZ.
It looks like the flight left YYZ on 3rd Feb 2009. I suspect it was the BA 092.The details related were taken from a pilot website. These include the the name of the passengering cabin crew member who offered to operate. She is the wife of the pilot who wrote the post. His post also supplied the name of the BA ops manager in YYZ.
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That seems like a bit too much identifiable data. Are you sure the people involved want the details publicised here? If Ozzie wants to know if it's true he can read his Worldwide agreement. There's nothing revelatory about the closed cabin situation.
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I believe it is confirmation that the event happened as suggested. In particular that it was BASSA who said no and not another department or organisation.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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CM I am more than aware of my agreements thank you.
I was trying to establish if the incident was true or not. Call me a cynic but there seems to be a lot of very petty, jealous individuals on pprune that are intent on knocking BASSA & BA cabin crew at every opportunity.
I was trying to establish if the incident was true or not. Call me a cynic but there seems to be a lot of very petty, jealous individuals on pprune that are intent on knocking BASSA & BA cabin crew at every opportunity.
Join Date: May 2000
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3 points:
1) It is a matter of huge concern that employees consult unions in the first instance, distrusting fellow flight crew, and completely disregarding management - they are to be approached as a last resort. I find it completely unacceptable that any union documentation dictates service delivery, and it I were Walsh, I would crush it.
2) It is a matter of complete idiocy to insist on strict agreement to union agreements in times of operational stress, particularly so to lose revenue.
3) It is an issue of safety if cabin crews not only disregard CSDs but cause flight crews additional stress by stirring up union issues downroute: such attitude and behaviour is unforgiveable. Have these idiots forgotten who it is who has to maintain undisturbed concentration upfront when flying them home over the dark and desolote wastes of the Arctic?
Unfortunately this is common, hence the clear strategy to break BASSA by hiring 11-month contract workers.
Furthermore, it goes without saying that it is a minority that give the whole employee group a bad name.
LEGAL rules pertaining to cabin crew as below - many here seem totally ignorant:
24 Rules Relating to Cabin Crew
24.1 The requirements detailed in this paragraph shall be applicable to all cabin crew
employed as crew members and are not intended to apply only to those cabin crew
carried to meet the provisions of the Air Navigation Order.
24.2 The limitations which shall be applied to cabin crew are those applicable to flight crew
members contained in paragraphs 6 to 23, but with the following differences:
a) A flying duty period can be 1 hour longer than that permitted for flight crew. The
FDP and limits set on early starts for cabin crew shall be based on the time at
which the flight crew report for their flying duty period, but that FDP will start at
the report time of the cabin crew.
b) For cabin crew the minimum rest period which will be provided before undertaking
a flying duty period shall be:
i) at least as long as the preceding duty period less 1 hour; or
ii) 11 hours;
whichever is the greater.
c) The combined sum of standby time and subsequent FDP can be 1 hour longer than
that permitted to flight crew.
d) The maximum duty hours for cabin crew shall not exceed:
60 hours in any 7 consecutive days, but may be increased to 65 hours when a
rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to
unforeseen delays.
105 hours in any 14 consecutive days.
210 hours in any 28 consecutive days.
e) The annual and 28 day limits on flying hours appertaining to flight crew need not
be applied.
f) The limits relating to two pilot flight crew long range operations do not apply.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF
1) It is a matter of huge concern that employees consult unions in the first instance, distrusting fellow flight crew, and completely disregarding management - they are to be approached as a last resort. I find it completely unacceptable that any union documentation dictates service delivery, and it I were Walsh, I would crush it.
2) It is a matter of complete idiocy to insist on strict agreement to union agreements in times of operational stress, particularly so to lose revenue.
3) It is an issue of safety if cabin crews not only disregard CSDs but cause flight crews additional stress by stirring up union issues downroute: such attitude and behaviour is unforgiveable. Have these idiots forgotten who it is who has to maintain undisturbed concentration upfront when flying them home over the dark and desolote wastes of the Arctic?
Unfortunately this is common, hence the clear strategy to break BASSA by hiring 11-month contract workers.
Furthermore, it goes without saying that it is a minority that give the whole employee group a bad name.
LEGAL rules pertaining to cabin crew as below - many here seem totally ignorant:
24 Rules Relating to Cabin Crew
24.1 The requirements detailed in this paragraph shall be applicable to all cabin crew
employed as crew members and are not intended to apply only to those cabin crew
carried to meet the provisions of the Air Navigation Order.
24.2 The limitations which shall be applied to cabin crew are those applicable to flight crew
members contained in paragraphs 6 to 23, but with the following differences:
a) A flying duty period can be 1 hour longer than that permitted for flight crew. The
FDP and limits set on early starts for cabin crew shall be based on the time at
which the flight crew report for their flying duty period, but that FDP will start at
the report time of the cabin crew.
b) For cabin crew the minimum rest period which will be provided before undertaking
a flying duty period shall be:
i) at least as long as the preceding duty period less 1 hour; or
ii) 11 hours;
whichever is the greater.
c) The combined sum of standby time and subsequent FDP can be 1 hour longer than
that permitted to flight crew.
d) The maximum duty hours for cabin crew shall not exceed:
60 hours in any 7 consecutive days, but may be increased to 65 hours when a
rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to
unforeseen delays.
105 hours in any 14 consecutive days.
210 hours in any 28 consecutive days.
e) The annual and 28 day limits on flying hours appertaining to flight crew need not
be applied.
f) The limits relating to two pilot flight crew long range operations do not apply.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF
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Just to add, my uncontained fury vented in the last post is neither directed at the professional cabin crew, nor at those with valid points on the use of the union to constrain excesses of the company.
I think the adults among us are able to draw a strict distinction between the two. Adults should also be able to recognise when unplanned events should permit disregard for union agreements in order to operate to legal maxima.
I think the adults among us are able to draw a strict distinction between the two. Adults should also be able to recognise when unplanned events should permit disregard for union agreements in order to operate to legal maxima.
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What's to clarify? If the aircraft goes out with a cabin closed it comes back with the cabin closed. It's all in your agreements.
The days when BA had clear leadership in the first and business class market are long gone. All of BA's major competitors have been investing in first and business class (LH has been upping its game in particular and is way ahead of BA in many respects) and BA's passengers have plenty of choice if they want to take their custom elsewhere.
As I say, rockets up backsides are needed.
No. No one is jealous of other dept's agreements. Incredulous? Yes. Jealous? No.
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Perhaps then you need a good solid strong union.......a bit like BASSA?
What about the people who actually pay your wages and without whom you wouldn't have a job? Your customers.
For the third time: Rockets up backsides are needed.