BA and Project Columbus II
Join Date: Dec 2004
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It's not a win or lose argument. Thanks though. And yes I do know CAP371 well and crewing procedures.
By the way I don't work for BA, I'm just not envious of their T&C's just because I don't have them. The company I work for don't operate to CAP371 either for the same reason (not far off though). They know that CAP 371 isn't workable with a mixed flying program.
Let us all keep flying for as long as we enjoy it not because we can't do it anymore.
6
By the way I don't work for BA, I'm just not envious of their T&C's just because I don't have them. The company I work for don't operate to CAP371 either for the same reason (not far off though). They know that CAP 371 isn't workable with a mixed flying program.
Let us all keep flying for as long as we enjoy it not because we can't do it anymore.
6
Join Date: Nov 2007
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If I were WW I'd say let them keep the money, but make it in exchange for more flexibility.
Scrap some of the outdated agreements and pay bonuses for on time performances, etc.
Ten west. I concur. The 'leaked' document unfortunately suggested otherwise.
Now that talks are to start between the unions and IfCE, I hope that such a comprimise can be found.
Scrap some of the outdated agreements and pay bonuses for on time performances, etc.
Ten west. I concur. The 'leaked' document unfortunately suggested otherwise.
Now that talks are to start between the unions and IfCE, I hope that such a comprimise can be found.
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Gatwick Cabin Crew operate a mixture of short and long haul flights..? Is this undertaken using the CAP371 system..? And I believe, LHR will be going mixed fleet in the future for those that are on 'new' contracts. I read on the daily mail website recently that the company is losing upto £1 million a day, the pension fund is in danger of collapsing, and premium traffic is considerably down, that's outrageous if the company is going to survive the future without some other airline eyeing them for a take-over. The Qantas tie-up didn't happen, and it looks increasingly unlikely that the Iberia one won't happen either. It's a real pity, but it 'sort-of' appears to me that B.A. are clutching at straws in an industry where no one seems to want to touch them with a bargepole...? Co-incidence, or just current climate, only time will tell... 
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LGW do indeed fly mixed fleet and it IS all under the rules of CAP 371.
They do have fewer problems organising that than may occur at LHR as all long haul is heading west. I'm no authority on FTL's but the rumour mill was saying they did look into doing more long haul to easterly destinations from LGW but combining that with shorthaul and min rest was too difficult without large increases in numbers.
Could be very wrong but does have a ring of truth when you look at some of the LGW rosters!!!
On pay, T & C's they've (LGW CC) been sold down the swany by BASSA and their LHR colleagues. Expect little support for retention of LHR T & C's in the current climate!
I'd hate to see the brewing situation lead to any kind of industrial action and truly hope BASSA do something sensible about their relationship with their members, the company and the rest of their colleagues and open their eyes enough to see that pay is not the issue if genuine flexibility can be built into their practices.
This is a fabulous opportunity to encourage BA to stop using their normal CC tactics of wielding a big stick and offering no carrot!
Most CC I talk to are happy to see a re-negotiation of what even they see as outdated terms, as long as they can see genuine improvements to their working life. Trip swapping, maybe some type of bidding system...lifestyle choice!!!!!
Who knows maybe sometime within my career in Big Airways we'll see time when the adult relationship between BA and BASSA exists enough for me to not be in fear of my continued and future employment every time BASSA decide to rattle sabres and inconvenience thousands of those paying my wage in the process!!!!
Good luck in whatever you all end up negotiating...but definitely time for a shake up.
Jazzy
They do have fewer problems organising that than may occur at LHR as all long haul is heading west. I'm no authority on FTL's but the rumour mill was saying they did look into doing more long haul to easterly destinations from LGW but combining that with shorthaul and min rest was too difficult without large increases in numbers.
Could be very wrong but does have a ring of truth when you look at some of the LGW rosters!!!
On pay, T & C's they've (LGW CC) been sold down the swany by BASSA and their LHR colleagues. Expect little support for retention of LHR T & C's in the current climate!
I'd hate to see the brewing situation lead to any kind of industrial action and truly hope BASSA do something sensible about their relationship with their members, the company and the rest of their colleagues and open their eyes enough to see that pay is not the issue if genuine flexibility can be built into their practices.
This is a fabulous opportunity to encourage BA to stop using their normal CC tactics of wielding a big stick and offering no carrot!
Most CC I talk to are happy to see a re-negotiation of what even they see as outdated terms, as long as they can see genuine improvements to their working life. Trip swapping, maybe some type of bidding system...lifestyle choice!!!!!
Who knows maybe sometime within my career in Big Airways we'll see time when the adult relationship between BA and BASSA exists enough for me to not be in fear of my continued and future employment every time BASSA decide to rattle sabres and inconvenience thousands of those paying my wage in the process!!!!
Good luck in whatever you all end up negotiating...but definitely time for a shake up.
Jazzy
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They do have fewer problems organising that than may occur at LHR as all long haul is heading west. I'm no authority on FTL's but the rumour mill was saying they did look into doing more long haul to easterly destinations from LGW but combining that with shorthaul and min rest was too difficult without large increases in numbers.
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"However I have lost count of the amount of times I have been in the galley stretching my legs on a long haul flight and witnessed the crew reading a newspaper or the Hello magazine. I know the what my reaction would be if I discovered my employees doing this!
Dezso,I am sorry but this comment is very rude and I think you should apologise. You think cabin crew should not be having the chance to sit down and read a paper after the service is completed? Before you say anything, I am aware of our duties regarding cabin patrols and other paperwork but I find your comment very insulting and I could be inclined to make similar comments about the flight crew community. Maybe, we should stop reading the paper and come and give you a massage because you ve been sitting down for far too long giving orders to the cabin crew that you are hungry when they are running around like headless chickens during the meal service!
Dezso,I am sorry but this comment is very rude and I think you should apologise. You think cabin crew should not be having the chance to sit down and read a paper after the service is completed? Before you say anything, I am aware of our duties regarding cabin patrols and other paperwork but I find your comment very insulting and I could be inclined to make similar comments about the flight crew community. Maybe, we should stop reading the paper and come and give you a massage because you ve been sitting down for far too long giving orders to the cabin crew that you are hungry when they are running around like headless chickens during the meal service!
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You think cabin crew should not be having the chance to sit down and read a paper after the service is completed? Before you say anything, I am aware of our duties regarding cabin patrols and other paperwork but I find your comment very insulting
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Yes I have flown with someone who worked for JAL and left not long after she joined cause she didnt fancy waiting outside the toilet so she can inspect/clean it after a passenger. Is this how you d envisage BA cabin crew if you could carnage matey?
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Two points.
1) LGW in the form of EOG sold themselves down the river, not BASSA. BASSA had a small representation at LGW, (still does), and recommended a vote against the creation of SFG as proposed. A vote was offered to the cabin crew community at LGW and they alone voted overwhelmingly to accept the t&cs. EOG was not part of the NSP at the time so very little resistance could be offered by LHR and Regional crew. BA have long delayed LGW being part of the NSP but have recently relented. A word of warning to LGW colleagues. The leaked document and LHR management are saying that LGW is still too expensive and will also need changes.
2) I cannot speak for short haul, but at LHR long haul - after the main service and particularily in the premium cabins our passengers, on the whole, want to sleep. That is why we offer beds in both First and Club World. I recieve far more complaints from passengers who have been disturbed by crew moving around the cabins than..... well actually nobody has ever complained about crew in the galleys. We do have duties to undertake during the quiet periods but most of the time is spent waiting for the next service. Alot of our passengers in the premium cabins go straight to work after the flight. They appreciate the chance to rest.
1) LGW in the form of EOG sold themselves down the river, not BASSA. BASSA had a small representation at LGW, (still does), and recommended a vote against the creation of SFG as proposed. A vote was offered to the cabin crew community at LGW and they alone voted overwhelmingly to accept the t&cs. EOG was not part of the NSP at the time so very little resistance could be offered by LHR and Regional crew. BA have long delayed LGW being part of the NSP but have recently relented. A word of warning to LGW colleagues. The leaked document and LHR management are saying that LGW is still too expensive and will also need changes.
2) I cannot speak for short haul, but at LHR long haul - after the main service and particularily in the premium cabins our passengers, on the whole, want to sleep. That is why we offer beds in both First and Club World. I recieve far more complaints from passengers who have been disturbed by crew moving around the cabins than..... well actually nobody has ever complained about crew in the galleys. We do have duties to undertake during the quiet periods but most of the time is spent waiting for the next service. Alot of our passengers in the premium cabins go straight to work after the flight. They appreciate the chance to rest.
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"However I have lost count of the amount of times I have been in the galley stretching my legs on a long haul flight and witnessed the crew reading a newspaper or the Hello magazine. I know the what my reaction would be if I discovered my employees doing this!
Dezso,I am sorry but this comment is very rude and I think you should apologise. You think cabin crew should not be having the chance to sit down and read a paper after the service is completed? Before you say anything, I am aware of our duties regarding cabin patrols and other paperwork but I find your comment very insulting and I could be inclined to make similar comments about the flight crew community. Maybe, we should stop reading the paper and come and give you a massage because you ve been sitting down for far too long giving orders to the cabin crew that you are hungry when they are running around like headless chickens during the meal service!
I am unsure of how to get the links from other threads .... so I just copied and pasted .....
Anyway just to clarify I am not actually a Pilot, I am a customer who fly's with you on a regular basis using your 777 and 747 aircraft to fly across the Atlantic (although that is now being challenged due to increasing restrictions with our travel policy, in order to save money).
I was aware that through talking to your flight attendants that you normally use an area in the belly of the aircraft and that was used to sit down and rest and sometimes sleep, away from the customers. I have also seen a curtain drawn around the exit doors where I believe that the flight attendants can rest in private. So I am not in anyway challenging your rest entitlements!
My point is that I often see other crew sitting down reading papers when I enter the galley. Sometimes they jump up and offer me drinks and snacks or just engage in conversation. On other occasions I find it hard to make eye contact and when I ask for a drink I made to feel like I am a nuisance. Sometimes your crew are prompt at coming through the cabin offering drinks and other times you hardly see someone, it is inconsistent.
My point is that if your people have time to read a paper or magazine then they have time to deliver 50 passengers a hot towel. How can you or your Union argue that this request is unreasonable? Does the union object to the food that you have to deliver and does your employer have to obtain permission to change the menu? I mean where does this nonsense end?
I just know that my customer facing employees usually go to the rest room/kitchen area on their breaks and eat/read. I would be furious if I found them reading papers at their desks in work time.
So I am sorry to disappoint you with the lack of apology but I certainly will not be apologising for my observations and comments.
I would state that in my opinion the BA Flight Attendants are much better than the American Carriers but you are falling behind in terms of Virgin and the Far East carriers. I am a BA supporter and I would hate to see the company go under but I fear if the trade union is up in arms over a hot towel then I cannot see how they can seriously sit down and talk about the really important stuff.
Maybe it is a tactic to argue the smaller points so you cannot argue the larger more important points, but the clock will be ticking and I continue to read depressing news from the travel industry, nobody is immune in this downturn. I have had no choice but to lay off some of my staff recently and it is heartbreaking but the reality is that nobody is immune from the mess that we are in. Maybe you need to embrace any enhancement that is being offered and be grateful that your company is investing, no matter how small it may appear.
Dezso,I am sorry but this comment is very rude and I think you should apologise. You think cabin crew should not be having the chance to sit down and read a paper after the service is completed? Before you say anything, I am aware of our duties regarding cabin patrols and other paperwork but I find your comment very insulting and I could be inclined to make similar comments about the flight crew community. Maybe, we should stop reading the paper and come and give you a massage because you ve been sitting down for far too long giving orders to the cabin crew that you are hungry when they are running around like headless chickens during the meal service!
I am unsure of how to get the links from other threads .... so I just copied and pasted .....
Anyway just to clarify I am not actually a Pilot, I am a customer who fly's with you on a regular basis using your 777 and 747 aircraft to fly across the Atlantic (although that is now being challenged due to increasing restrictions with our travel policy, in order to save money).
I was aware that through talking to your flight attendants that you normally use an area in the belly of the aircraft and that was used to sit down and rest and sometimes sleep, away from the customers. I have also seen a curtain drawn around the exit doors where I believe that the flight attendants can rest in private. So I am not in anyway challenging your rest entitlements!
My point is that I often see other crew sitting down reading papers when I enter the galley. Sometimes they jump up and offer me drinks and snacks or just engage in conversation. On other occasions I find it hard to make eye contact and when I ask for a drink I made to feel like I am a nuisance. Sometimes your crew are prompt at coming through the cabin offering drinks and other times you hardly see someone, it is inconsistent.
My point is that if your people have time to read a paper or magazine then they have time to deliver 50 passengers a hot towel. How can you or your Union argue that this request is unreasonable? Does the union object to the food that you have to deliver and does your employer have to obtain permission to change the menu? I mean where does this nonsense end?
I just know that my customer facing employees usually go to the rest room/kitchen area on their breaks and eat/read. I would be furious if I found them reading papers at their desks in work time.
So I am sorry to disappoint you with the lack of apology but I certainly will not be apologising for my observations and comments.
I would state that in my opinion the BA Flight Attendants are much better than the American Carriers but you are falling behind in terms of Virgin and the Far East carriers. I am a BA supporter and I would hate to see the company go under but I fear if the trade union is up in arms over a hot towel then I cannot see how they can seriously sit down and talk about the really important stuff.
Maybe it is a tactic to argue the smaller points so you cannot argue the larger more important points, but the clock will be ticking and I continue to read depressing news from the travel industry, nobody is immune in this downturn. I have had no choice but to lay off some of my staff recently and it is heartbreaking but the reality is that nobody is immune from the mess that we are in. Maybe you need to embrace any enhancement that is being offered and be grateful that your company is investing, no matter how small it may appear.
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No problem then. I'm more than happy to keep the lights on and trolleys in the cabin all flight. Makes the time pass much quicker. During the quiet times a newspaper is often my only salvation to being bored. But it seems the majority prefer matters as they are. I had an incident returning from NAS last year. The blinds were down, lights out and the majority happily asleep. One passenger objected. He finally took matters into his own hands and went around opening blinds. He was nearly lynched several times by those he disturbed. We go with the majority I'm afraid.
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Originally Posted by newbagr
Yes I have flown with someone who worked for JAL and left not long after she joined cause she didnt fancy waiting outside the toilet so she can inspect/clean it after a passenger. Is this how you d envisage BA cabin crew if you could carnage matey?
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A stupid trollish post carnage. You clearly don't like cabin crew do you? Well sorry but the CAA states that we are a necessary evil. If only to bring you guys an edition of every newspaper onboard into the flight deck, only to clear them out again once you've finished the crosswords.
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Playing the man and not the ball again 767? It's a valid question. I've seen crew clean sick from the bogs on BA. Why does newbagr think he's better than them. Or the JAL crew?
PS I can't remember the last time anyone cleared a newspaper out of the flight deck apart from us.
PS I can't remember the last time anyone cleared a newspaper out of the flight deck apart from us.
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I didn't read that newbagr felt above others. I did read a provocative post from yourself. Peace had nearly broken out.
Best wait for newbagr to answer your question, not me.
Best wait for newbagr to answer your question, not me.
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1) LGW in the form of EOG sold themselves down the river, not BASSA. BASSA had a small representation at LGW, (still does), and recommended a vote against the creation of SFG as proposed. A vote was offered to the cabin crew community at LGW and they alone voted overwhelmingly to accept the t&cs. EOG was not part of the NSP at the time so very little resistance could be offered by LHR and Regional crew. BA have long delayed LGW being part of the NSP but have recently relented. A word of warning to LGW colleagues. The leaked document and LHR management are saying that LGW is still too expensive and will also need changes.
That aside ex-EOG crew were greatly in favour of the move and the majority are better off as a result. BASSA were neglectful in their advice in these negotiations - if they had wanted to fight for a better deal prior to a vote they could have but didn't.
That (also) aside - had Gatwick not produced significant cost savings it would probably have gone the same way as all the other UK "regional" stations by now.
Sorry not trying to be argumentative but I just seem to remember things differently.
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Carnage, thank you for your constuctive post. The answer to your question is that I fully support all my colleagues wherever they work , be it JAL, Virgin or elsewhere. I will not do you the favour to engage into an argument by saying that cleaning the toilet is beneath me , I will just say that I wouldnt work for JAL because I wouldnt be culturally suited for the airline. I think, at BA we have a good workforce onboard ( with some exceptions like elsewhere ) showing professionalism and genuine interest for our customers. Afterall, the surveys demonstrate that. Regarding our paper reading activities onboard, I will admit that I do read the papers sometimes THOUGH cabin patrols , toilet checks and juice rounds always done promptly!
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EOG most transfered up to LHR. What is left is CityFlyer Express. Now they were the worst paid airline in the UK. They were on ATR`s and RJ`s and flew around Europe and UK. Now offer 777 and 737 long haul and short haul you`d jump for it too.
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also, to clarify things CarnageMatey, I have cleaned several times vomit after people being sick, and the toilet too. I was not objecting to that. Though, yes I will object to a position onboard where I will be responsible for a toilet, wait for a customer to exit the toilet so I can clean it after them! Our roles entails many tasks, sometimes cleaning the toilets and Iam not ashamed to admit that. To finish my post, thanks for giving me the chance to clear any confusion that I am any better than anyone else.