BA and Project Columbus II

[Ten West]

Originally Posted by OzzieO

I suspect you will find that BASSA never really intended to introduce "Name And Shame" its just a tactic to get the crew community talking about the agreements being broken.

I think you credit them with too much subtlety Ozzie. Unions are a good idea in principle, and very valuable in protecting employees' rights.
But as with anything involving politics at an amateur level, it attracts the extremists and the radicals who want to "Make a name for themselves" by playing at being "Little Trotskyites". Remember a certain Arthur Scargill?

The membership simply needs to spot this early and get rid of these idiots. BASSA members might then gain a lot more credibility and respect.

Originally Posted by Charliepie

Firstly, there are many people that deserve tremendous thanks for all their
hardwork and the invaluable contribution they have made in keeping the operation alive.
Is the ability you have to decide how much commitment you give to the cause inherent in you position within ops? Did you have a choice?
You talk of our aircrews volunteering. Any examples?

Of course I had a choice. Everyone has a choice. Even BASSA members if they choose to exercise it rather than going along with the union line like sheep.

The programme was going rapidly to rat-poo because of weather. Myself and my colleagues in Ops saw this, and realised that our 'relief' would have a hard time getting in, if they could get in at all.
We decided not to clear off home at shift's end (as we're perfectly well entitled to do) which would have meant the office was left largely unmanned.
Those of us who were already on shift (and the others who live locally and could get in) got together and volunteered our services for whatever was required to get through this.
We may have had to live in the hotel for a few days and work some long runs, but it worked.
We also each had a nice hand written card from the heads of department left on our desks the next day thanking us for our commitment. Which was a nice touch.
We either worked it as overtime, or will take days off in the future. 'Negotiate', remember? Not 'Hold to ransom'.

Plenty of our Flight crews and Cabin crews volunteered to help out if needed too, and we're lucky to have some fine and operationally-minded aircrew people who will always offer to assist where they can. It seems you guys have too if Glamgirl and her colleagues are anything to go by.

Some however, used the bad weather as a good chance for a day off, as expected.

All they're doing is stitching up their mates who are on standby. Crewing have long memories and it's a small department. Let's see who's going to be first in line for those short-notice long hauls in the summer now.

As for a "Name and shame" policy: Well, how is it "Shameful" to use common sense and a "Can-Do" attitude in your workplace?
I'd say "Bring it on!". I would imagine that BA would be happy to offer legal help to anyone who feels bullied or victimised in their workplace by the actions of these people. Might be worth asking?

Originally Posted by Flytoserve

I am flabbergasted how much a Captain at BMI earns a month.

Makes me wish I'd tried harder at school!

[OliverUK2000]

SNOWBOUND: They did what to you?

SNOWBOUND. They did what to you? I find it hard to believe that you were banned.
I also spoke out against the poll online, even threatening to reconsider my membership it such lunacy like a NAME & SHAME policy would be introduced but nothing of the sort has happened to me, at least not yet!

[OzzieO]

To be honest I am disgusted that BASSA would even contemplate having a NAME AND SHAME policy.

Legally they are going to find themselves in hot water if it goes ahead.

[Ten West]

If BASSA are challenged on it, I will put money on the outcome:

If they think they can get away with it, they'll stick behind it. Then, when the lawyers start getting involved they'll suddenly disassociate themselves from the actions of the guy who proposed it, claiming he was acting on his own initiative and without the authority of the Union. They'll then drop him like a hot potato.

"Nothing to do wiv us Guv"

[charliepie]

Ten West, my questions to you were genuine ones. I am/was interested in how you organised yourselves to keep the operation going. As, indeed, I am to read some examples of exactly what cabin crew and flight crew were volunteering to do. Believe it or not it might help me understand what more, specifically, (apart from taking minmum rest after a diversion) our cabin crew should be doing that they are not.

Clearly the flexibilty you have within a small (?) group of colleagues enables you to do almost whatever you need to do on the day and your efforts were personally recognised and quite rightly so.

What disappoints me is the low regard you seem to have for most of the cabin crew community based on how a small minority behave.

There is nothing shameless in doing what you believe to be the right thing as more than enough people have proved. However, naming and shaming crew that have chosen to do the right thing, or, depending on your point of view, break their working agreement, will put those individuals in a position where they are almost certainly going to be the victims of bullying and harassment. BA legal support or not the experience can leave you permanently affected. It is for that reason that I consider the policy suggestion to be totally unacceptable.

[Classic]

The Bassa chairman has also posted online that the CAA are investigating cabin crew members who have gone beyond scheme.

It's nothing to do with a cabin crew member - FTLs are the Captain's responsibility.

[EYXW]

Well I've just had a nose through the thread on BASSA Forum and I am quite baffled by the Rep's point of view - on one hand they agree that the proposal seems like "a return to the bad old days" and in the next sentence they are trying to put it across as a necessity to keep members in line - the list time I checked Unions were paid to listen to their members not the other way around.

Are the branch seriously asking for a vote of no confidence or have recent times truly turned them into a bunch or raving trots.

Come on BASSA - I know you can and have been better - get with it, Support your members and take the blinkers off you are going to HAVE to rethink your direction because the current one is only possible in a future where BA has gone bye bye.

BA Cabin Crew by and large are an admirable bunch of people who do an excellent job, they need a policy like this from their Union at the moment like a hole in the head.

[charliepie]

Classic, there is more than one example of scheme limits being exceeded as well as our working agreements being broken.
Aren't cabin and flight crew scheme limits different depending on the circumstances? Do you take responsibilty for working out both? I normally get asked to work out the cabin crew limits. In fact I am expected to know and work within those limits by my employer. That being the case, I am held to account if they are exceeded.

[Ten West]

Originally Posted by Charliepie

Ten West, my questions to you were genuine ones. I am/was interested in how you organised yourselves to keep the operation going. As, indeed, I am to read some examples of exactly what cabin crew and flight crew were volunteering to do. Believe it or not it might help me understand what more, specifically, (apart from taking minmum rest after a diversion) our cabin crew should be doing that they are not.

No problem.

Well, once it was known that the weather would be a major disruption, I had calls coming in from cabin crews saying that they lived close by to their bases, and that they had no other plans, so if someone couldn't make it in they'd be happy to cover (subject to legality, etc).
Basically, they'd help us out and we'd help them out. To give you an example, I had one chap volunteer to work on his day off the next day. We were stuck for a crew member on a flight from his home base. I looked at his roster and noticed that in two week's time he had a few days leave, followed by one Saturday short-haul duty, then more leave.
I suggested to him that he might like to work tomorrow and I'd take him off that Saturday so that he gets a good long uninterrupted break and could maybe go away somewhere? He took me up on it. Everyone's happy at no cost.

We also maintain a list of pilots who have volunteered to be available to call out at short notice for extra payments on days off, etc.
Once the weather was bad, a lot of guys on this list called us to say that they were within reach of the airport if needed and would be happy to be called at short notice.
Equally helpful were the ones who lived in isolated areas and called us saying that they were unable to get in, but would be happy to have their roster adjusted to cover others who had to be taken off flights further in the future for legal reasons because they worked during the snow.

Clearly the flexibilty you have within a small (?) group of colleagues enables you to do almost whatever you need to do on the day and your efforts were personally recognised and quite rightly so.

What disappoints me is the low regard you seem to have for most of the cabin crew community based on how a small minority behave.

Unfortunately, it's the small minority of names that crop up over and over again who get the others a bad reputation by being "tarred with the same brush". We have many excellent cabin crew people, as I'm sure you do.
Maybe the good ones amongst you need to point out to the bad ones the error of their ways and the long-term detrimental effect it'll have on all of your jobs.

There is nothing shameless in doing what you believe to be the right thing as more than enough people have proved. However, naming and shaming crew that have chosen to do the right thing, or, depending on your point of view, break their working agreement, will put those individuals in a position where they are almost certainly going to be the victims of bullying and harassment. BA legal support or not the experience can leave you permanently affected. It is for that reason that I consider the policy suggestion to be totally unacceptable.

Good on you. You've evaluated what's been proposed, thought it through and decided not to go along with it just because it's what "The Union" says.
If more people used their heads as you're evidently not afraid to do then I doubt that Columbus would have even become an issue in the first place.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Posted by flytoserve

I am flabbergasted how much a Captain at BMI earns a month

And a Ryanair Captain makes around 25 - 30% more net with some on close to double that.

[Ten West]

Originally Posted by Charliepie

Classic, there is more than one example of scheme limits being exceeded as well as our working agreements being broken.
Aren't cabin and flight crew scheme limits different depending on the circumstances?

They are different, as you say, but Pilots will always have the most limiting factors. Generally speaking, if they're legal to operate then so are you.

Do you take responsibilty for working out both? I normally get asked to work out the cabin crew limits. In fact I am expected to know and work within those limits by my employer. That being the case, I am held to account if they are exceeded.

The Captain is ultimately responsible for the safe and legal conduct of his flight. If you're working out FTL's and Last Landings it'll just be to help your Captain out and save him a bit of time.
I don't imagine that the CAA would pursue you personally for an FTL violation. They'd probably come after my department!

[Human Factor]

The Bassa chairman has also posted online that the CAA are investigating cabin crew members who have gone beyond scheme.

It's nothing to do with a cabin crew member - FTLs are the Captain's responsibility.

If cabin crew went beyond scheme, flight crew certainly must have gone beyond scheme to allow this to happen as their hours are more restrictive. I would suggest this is highly unlikely as i) it is only the Captain who may make the decision regarding whether or not to exercise his discretion and I can't imagine for a second any BA Captain deliberately exceeding the legal maximum hours and ii) it's not the cabin crew who get investigated if he does.

Just out of interest, below is a quote from a recent BASSA release (5th Jan 2009) regarding four reps who were found guilty of misconduct:

As with any internal procedure, to protect the reputation and right to privacy, names and specific details cannot legally be released and we hope you would respect this.

Draw your own conclusions.

[wiggy]

In my experience ( some of it v. recent), a few of our Cabin Crew colleagues really don't understand the difference between "industrial Limitations" and "scheme", indeed there are some who are utterly unaware that scheme exists at all - I've lost count of the number of times I've been told that back to backing say a NRT and a JFK is illegal).

[Da Dog]

Charliepie I would get your head in the blue book if I were you rather than ask questions on PpruNe

Particularly 1.16.2.1 and 1.16.2.2

Also for disruption 1.16.12 and 1.16.13 of particular interest in an off schedule scenario as far as crew are concerned is 1.16.13.3

[charliepie]

Da Dog, did you look up those references or do you know them off the top of your head?
One would be sad the other even sadder.

[Da Dog]

Or maybe its part of my profession to know where to look

Perhaps if you paid more interest in yours, you would not be discussing your misconceptions on pprune

That and avoiding answering any difficult questions

[Classic]

charliepie wrote:

Aren't cabin and flight crew scheme limits different depending on the circumstances? Do you take responsibilty for working out both? I normally get asked to work out the cabin crew limits. In fact I am expected to know and work within those limits by my employer. That being the case, I am held to account if they are exceeded.

Charliepie,
No, and please tell your colleagues:

Whatever Lalalady might try to tell you, there is absolutely no legal responsibility on the CSD to apply or control FTLs for the cabin crew. The Captain is the only person responsible under law for those issues. There is no way that cabin crew will have exceeded FTLs as that would mean the pilots would have to apply discretion by over 3 hours, and that will never happen.

Tell Bassa that they are trying to convince their members that some have exceeeded their authority and they will be punished by Bassa. They are lying!!!

[Da Dog]

Classic, I think you need to be careful with the word "never."

There have been incidences where the cabin crew have worked beyond their scheme limits, largely in SH and largely as a result of the individual CC member not taking into account disruption over previous days (1.16.13.3), a rarity on LH but something that has cropped up to my knowledge on SH

[Ten West]

This has finally turned the corner into a useful thread rather than inter-departmental bickering.

The more cabin crew members understand the technicalities and legal ramifications of their job, then the harder certain elements of BASSA will find it to spread their particular brand of panic and fear.

Charliepie:

I don't regard it as "sad" that a Captain knows where to look for guidance on legal matters pertaining to his job.
Is it "sad" for you to know where the safety cards are located, or to know the evacuation drills off by heart?

No.

It's called "Professional pride".

[charliepie]

Ten West:

I don't regard it as "sad" that a Captain knows where to look for guidance on legal matters pertaining to his job.

Neither do I, making the effort to look up the 'guidance' and then post it on a forum which is not pertaining to his job..........infinite sadness.