BA and Project Columbus
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Between a rock & a hard place.
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Just a quick recall on destination payments. These came about after BEP in the 90's and amount to a pot of money which was allocated to IFS by the company in lieu of other savings. The money became destination payments as a way of trying to fairly allocate the money back to crew. It was considered fair to place the money on low earning routes or routes which just missed out on premium payments. I know it seems an anomaly and the term destination payment perhaps doesn't help but IFS acknowledge that this is a legitimate part of the budget. If there is a fairer way, and a meaningful way, to allocate the money across the board then I am more than willing to discuss this.
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Totally. All I would like to see is improvements in productivity that generates the best for our customers.
If CC end up no worse off over 12 months but the spread is fairer, equal (ish) and ensures a more flexible working environment, Im all for it.
Im sure BA will have different ideas on this.
No one is attacking the BA CC, just trying to open peoples eyes to a necessary change from which everyone can benefit.
Maybe now Im being too naive!!
If CC end up no worse off over 12 months but the spread is fairer, equal (ish) and ensures a more flexible working environment, Im all for it.
Im sure BA will have different ideas on this.
No one is attacking the BA CC, just trying to open peoples eyes to a necessary change from which everyone can benefit.
Maybe now Im being too naive!!
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Those that can, leave. Those that cant, moan
We all know BA are currently attempting to fill a "pool" of cabin crew on the new T&C. I for one hope that the old school cabin crew will walk, the ones I hear day after day "hate" their job, but are quite happy to take the pay cheque.
Let BA flush out all the old fossils who should be put in a museum. Lets get some new blood in BA WW LHR. Doesnt matter about the wages, the people who are applying RIGHT NOW, are more than happy to just do the job on the new T&C, because ITS A JOB. The offer is simple, take it or leave it.
Go on strike. Thats it, you voluntarily terminate your contract, end of story. Next candidate please.
Let BA flush out all the old fossils who should be put in a museum. Lets get some new blood in BA WW LHR. Doesnt matter about the wages, the people who are applying RIGHT NOW, are more than happy to just do the job on the new T&C, because ITS A JOB. The offer is simple, take it or leave it.
Go on strike. Thats it, you voluntarily terminate your contract, end of story. Next candidate please.
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Jetstar crew do MEL-DPS-MEL in a single day trip, back of the clock, no crew rest. Should BA crew be forced to do LHR-BOS-LHR because JQ do something similar?
I have said before I think BA crew are great, but changes to working practises are essential for us to be a lean mean company to compete with all the other airlines out there. I hope the discussions will result in fewer crew who do more hours and create less disruption (requiring large numbers on standby). Those remaining will hopefully not lose out too much financially. The saving therefore come from a lower headcount.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Some ex-Flight Engineers remain with BA in several operational roles including as pilots, although not as cabin crew.
Not sure any were on £80k + allowances in the first place.
Even if there were, they would all have retired long ago.
Not sure how any of the above is related to the Columbus debate
As regards the Columbus debate:
I have very happy memories of the cabin crew I flew with during my many years in BA. Somehow, I never seemed to encounter the attitudes and problems that seem to be recounted ad nauseam by some pilots, although no doubt those attitudes did exist amongst a few cabin crew.
In the main, I flew with delightful cabin crew, who looked after the passengers and me very well and caused very few problems. They spoiled me rotten, if the truth be known.
So I have no axe to grind, and I don't wish to see their T&Cs decimated.
However, they appear to have been represented, for many years, by a union that has a firm grasp of the inessential and is rooted firmly in the industrial mindset of the 1980s, when many of the reps joined!
Cabin crew costs are way out of line with any other UK airline, around double according to the latest CAA figures. Don't take my word for it, look them up for yourselves.
Willie will not let that state of affairs continue.
Unless their union get serious, about negotiating sensibly on the inevitable changes that are coming, Willie is going to have a field day!
And that, believe it or not, I wouldn't like to see happen to such a great bunch of people.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Again, it goes back to BA's unique route network and on board product. In the UK, I can only think of Qantas that offers a true four class configuration on their long haul routes, crewed by UK based crew. By its very nature, crew costs are going to be higher at BA because the service can be labour intensive.
As for operating LHR-BOS-LHR as a day return, putting aside the moral and legal issue surrounding such a duty (we'd be looking at around a 16-18 hour duty day, barring delays) while you may save on allowances downroute and hotac, you wouldn't be any better off with the head count factor as crew would reach 900 hours a lot quicker.
As for operating LHR-BOS-LHR as a day return, putting aside the moral and legal issue surrounding such a duty (we'd be looking at around a 16-18 hour duty day, barring delays) while you may save on allowances downroute and hotac, you wouldn't be any better off with the head count factor as crew would reach 900 hours a lot quicker.
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Where did the whole LHR-BOS-LHR day trip idea come from? Thats never going to happen, you couldn't get close under FTLs. BA's crew costs are not high because of the complexity of service, they're high because of the reasons in the Columbus document:
Crew on legacy pay scales thar are double the industry average.
4 supervisory grades out of 15 crew on a 747.
Rigid inflexibility and sky high costs when off schedule.
Having 4 cabins doesn't make the crew cost more, the complexity only means it takes longer to do the service.
Crew on legacy pay scales thar are double the industry average.
4 supervisory grades out of 15 crew on a 747.
Rigid inflexibility and sky high costs when off schedule.
Having 4 cabins doesn't make the crew cost more, the complexity only means it takes longer to do the service.
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Of course we wouldn't do LHR-BOS-LHR. I was making a comparison in an earlier post with Jetstar operating MEL-DPS-MEL as one duty, back of the clock. Another posted suggested that BA should do the same. That was my rebuttal.
Flexibility has also been mentioned and I take your point about supervisory grades. I am well aware of the costs involved with our crew and why they are higher than other airlines. My point regarding crew ratio to service classes is still valid - it is mathematics. For example, we have more crew on a Friday night FRA than say, easyJet because we could have around 100 or so Club Europe passengers. Our service requires extra crew to be able to deliver the product within the time constraints. easyJet can go with minimum crew because their product allows for it.
Out of the UK, only BA and QF have a First product with a UK based crew. You need 3 crew to operate a decent First service with 14 pax. A combined 'business/first' product as offered by Virgin and Air New Zealand can be operated with a slightly lower crew per pax ratio. Then again, ask anyone who flies for Air New Zealand and they will all say that an extra crew member is drastically needed. Qantas have their dedicated crew in the premium cabins, which BA is trying to copy with it's 'Premium Academy'.
You also have to factor in the physical limitations of the upper deck of the 747. 20 club pax to two crew members does distort the whole crew to pax ratio. As the services run simultaneously downstairs, it's not like one of them can break away and help in another cabin until their own service is finished.
Our crew costs are high because of the nature of our service and flying. If easyJet, for example, decided to go long haul, they would also have to pay their crew allowances. If they threw in a business cabin, they would need another crew member. What is all that going to do to their crew costs? Is anyone who stays at easyJet longer than 10 years going to be branded an 'easyJet dinosaur'? Are people going to be calling for them to retire because they earn too much?
Flexibility has also been mentioned and I take your point about supervisory grades. I am well aware of the costs involved with our crew and why they are higher than other airlines. My point regarding crew ratio to service classes is still valid - it is mathematics. For example, we have more crew on a Friday night FRA than say, easyJet because we could have around 100 or so Club Europe passengers. Our service requires extra crew to be able to deliver the product within the time constraints. easyJet can go with minimum crew because their product allows for it.
Out of the UK, only BA and QF have a First product with a UK based crew. You need 3 crew to operate a decent First service with 14 pax. A combined 'business/first' product as offered by Virgin and Air New Zealand can be operated with a slightly lower crew per pax ratio. Then again, ask anyone who flies for Air New Zealand and they will all say that an extra crew member is drastically needed. Qantas have their dedicated crew in the premium cabins, which BA is trying to copy with it's 'Premium Academy'.
You also have to factor in the physical limitations of the upper deck of the 747. 20 club pax to two crew members does distort the whole crew to pax ratio. As the services run simultaneously downstairs, it's not like one of them can break away and help in another cabin until their own service is finished.
Our crew costs are high because of the nature of our service and flying. If easyJet, for example, decided to go long haul, they would also have to pay their crew allowances. If they threw in a business cabin, they would need another crew member. What is all that going to do to their crew costs? Is anyone who stays at easyJet longer than 10 years going to be branded an 'easyJet dinosaur'? Are people going to be calling for them to retire because they earn too much?
Join Date: Apr 1999
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I still disagree that crew costs are high because of the nature of the flying and the product. I wonder how Qantas' UK costs compare to BA, or Virgins when factored per head. The reality is that given a set number of crew, BAs costs are still way above the others. It's not just about the 747 either. Crew costs are higher on 4 and 3 class 777s and 3 class 767s.
The cabin complexity argument also falls down when you consider that we always leave London with a full complement of crew regardless of the booked loads. If you flew over the Christmas period you'd have seen flights with barely anyone on them and low single figures in the premium cabins. Does that require a full 15 crew? When you've only two people in first do we we need 3 crew members to serve them, or could we leave London with 14 crew and crew First with 2? I don't have an issue with using extra crew on EF services with high Club loads, you can only do so much given the flight time, but we wouldn't routinely but 6 crew on an A319 from Frankfurt regardless of load so why put 15 on a jumbo regardless of load?
The cabin complexity argument also falls down when you consider that we always leave London with a full complement of crew regardless of the booked loads. If you flew over the Christmas period you'd have seen flights with barely anyone on them and low single figures in the premium cabins. Does that require a full 15 crew? When you've only two people in first do we we need 3 crew members to serve them, or could we leave London with 14 crew and crew First with 2? I don't have an issue with using extra crew on EF services with high Club loads, you can only do so much given the flight time, but we wouldn't routinely but 6 crew on an A319 from Frankfurt regardless of load so why put 15 on a jumbo regardless of load?
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Hmm. After operation Columbine-High has blown through, I wonder which staff group will be looked at next? I'm for the cabin crew on this one. If profit is good for business then how come austerity is good for workers 
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Carnage Matey,
What about the return flight ?
Yes they may also be booked as light, but we're talking about a flight 24hrs later most of the time. So many times, another carrier flying the same route home has gone tech, and we've filled up with their pax.
The only times I've left short of a normal complement of crew, was when BA were 'capping' flights.
F would be only half (I think) booked, and 2 crew. Sometimes F would be closed.
What about the return flight ?
Yes they may also be booked as light, but we're talking about a flight 24hrs later most of the time. So many times, another carrier flying the same route home has gone tech, and we've filled up with their pax.
The only times I've left short of a normal complement of crew, was when BA were 'capping' flights.
F would be only half (I think) booked, and 2 crew. Sometimes F would be closed.
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Carnage matey,remember the 747 has 12 doors,therefore a minimum of 12 cabin crew regardless of load,unless the upper deck cabin is not used.Rostering crew numbers related to expected booked loads is fraught with potential disaster,as delays and cancellations can result in half full aircraft ending up being oversold.15 cabin crew on a 4 class 747 is proved to work extremely well,baring in mind the crew compliment used to be 16 prior to 9-11,and the reduction to 15 was based on economic pressures.BA can make savings by introducing new contracts,terms and conditions for new starters or offering financial incentives for current employees to switch to whatever new conditions are proposed.It will suit some and not others,the key to change is making it voluntary,not imposing drastic changes to current working practices.Cabin crew are front line ,customer contact staff and at BA provide service to the highest end of premium travellers,who expect to be looked after by,professional,friendly,competent and enthusiastic crew.Those attributes would evaporate if any attempt was made to devalue the contribution they make to the success of the company.
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who expect to be looked after by,professional,friendly,competent and enthusiastic crew.
remember the 747 has 12 doors,therefore a minimum of 12 cabin crew regardless of load,unless the upper deck cabin is not used
Last edited by Da Dog; 23rd Jan 2009 at 16:25.
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It's actually a minimum of 11 crew on the 747 and in that case the UD must have no passengers. Otherwise it's a minimum of 12. I can't see it working with manning the flights depending on the number of passengers booked on a flight. As mentioned, a lot can happen over a period of 24 hours. The figures given on the briefing sheet for the return sector are almost never accurate in my experience.
Most airlines also seem to operate with in average 2 supervisory grades in their cabins. The CSD would have been assisted, usually, with a PSR in Economy. Apart from that, galley operator (main crew) to run the galleys. So, I can understand BA's point of view as to why they say that things are expensive. Also keep in mind that most PSRs on BA actually work in the cabin (F and J cabins) as opposed to taking care of the galley. The only PSR that actually works in the galley is in the Y cabin.
Most airlines also seem to operate with in average 2 supervisory grades in their cabins. The CSD would have been assisted, usually, with a PSR in Economy. Apart from that, galley operator (main crew) to run the galleys. So, I can understand BA's point of view as to why they say that things are expensive. Also keep in mind that most PSRs on BA actually work in the cabin (F and J cabins) as opposed to taking care of the galley. The only PSR that actually works in the galley is in the Y cabin.
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Human factor, I was with BA and in LUN when the crew got bricked on the bus to the airport and had to get airlifted to JNB. This was all going on when they moved those routes down to LGW long haul in the 90's. We also had a stewardess get raped by one of the security guards and was why we had to move from the Intercontinental to the Pomadzi. As far as water, run the water in LOS and then tell me how pristine it is. When I meant closing your eyes, your eyes are a mucous membrane, and bacteria can get into your bloodstream from your eyes. Anyhow, I am glad suddenly life in Africa has turned all 5 stars. Been walking in downtown Jo'burg lately? Give it a try and get back to us.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Originally Posted by Da Dog
indeed I have done flights from LGW on a 737 with just 3 crew, albeit not the norm
VS-LHRCSA,
You seem very keen on comparing us with different airlines, to confirm your impression that LHR is unique.
Again, it goes back to BA's unique route network and on board product. In the UK, I can only think of Qantas that offers a true four class configuration on their long haul routes, crewed by UK based crew. By its very nature, crew costs are going to be higher at BA because the service can be labour intensive.
My point regarding crew ratio to service classes is still valid - it is mathematics. For example, we have more crew on a Friday night FRA than say, easyJet because we could have around 100 or so Club Europe passengers. Our service requires extra crew to be able to deliver the product within the time constraints.
Our crew costs are high because of the nature of our service and flying. If easyJet, for example, decided to go long haul, they would also have to pay their crew allowances. If they threw in a business cabin, they would need another crew member.
BA LHR compared to BA LGW
3 and 4 class configurations?
LHR - Check
LGW - Check
Premium passengers?
LHR - Check
LGW - Check (despite popular opinion!)
Business Routes?
LHR - Check
LGW - Check (see above)
So far, it seems to me, a pretty similiar set up. But...
Working with minimum crew,despite having a business cabin?
LHR - Erm...
LGW - Check
Destination Payments?
LHR - Check
LGW - Destination what?
Box Payments?
LHR - Check
LGW - Where's the box?
One Down Payments?
LHR - Check (not sure of amount but £200 has been quoted)
LGW - Check (know that amount - £30)
Mixed flying and the associated fatigue?
LHR - Mixed flying?
LGW - Check
Do you see what I'm getting at here? You appear to be basing the majority of your argument on the fact that BA routes and services are unique. So where does Gatwick come into that argument?
I am well aware that this is not about LGW v LHR but, look at it from a management and shareholder point of view. As far as they are concerned, why should LHR be any different to LGW?
Jsl
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Always good to see the normal few of our pilots on here,running down their Cabin Crew.Always the same 5 or 6!!.
Happy to read threads but I now rarely post.
I was recently in HKG (NO WHERE NEAR £1000)!!...wish it was.I was having a beer with 5 of our finest in Dickens Bar.One of the F/O's said to one of the others,'it's got to be your round,you're on Forced Draught'.
When I asked why they were all laughing and asked what Forced Draught was I never got an answer.
That was ages ago and I still have'nt found out!!.Simple and probably an ignorant question,but what is Forced Draught?.
Please say it is not a Beer or I'll not be able to come on here again.
WTDWL.
Happy to read threads but I now rarely post.
I was recently in HKG (NO WHERE NEAR £1000)!!...wish it was.I was having a beer with 5 of our finest in Dickens Bar.One of the F/O's said to one of the others,'it's got to be your round,you're on Forced Draught'.
When I asked why they were all laughing and asked what Forced Draught was I never got an answer.
That was ages ago and I still have'nt found out!!.Simple and probably an ignorant question,but what is Forced Draught?.
Please say it is not a Beer or I'll not be able to come on here again.
WTDWL.
Junior trash
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One of the F/O's said to one of the others,'it's got to be your round,you're on Forced Draught'.
