Passengers insulting cabin crew. What do you do? here is a case

[Jumbo744]

Hello,

Last week, my girlfriend and I decided to go on a trip to West Africa.
I took a Air France flight and she took a Royal Air Maroc flight.

She told me that as the plane was taxiing, a passenger (aged in the 40s) got up to go to the bathroom and that the stewardess kindly asked him to go back to his seat. He started shouting really loud and insulting her, using words I will not write here. The stewardess was shocked as most of the passengers. He was warned that they could call stop the plane and call the Police, but he became even more aggressive as he got up and threaten the crew saying stuff like "bring the police!, the plane is going to my country, i'll bring you to the police".

I am surprised they didn't disembark him. As a passenger I would be shocked and not comfortable having a guy like this in the plane. I would also be mad and want to knock him off but wouldn't do it as I would be in a plane and probably go to jail.

My question is, how are you guys trained to deal with those animals? how can you keep self-control when being insulted? I really have admiration for that.

What would have you done in this situation?

I know that disembarking a passenger would delay the flight and cause some trouble, but I think it should be done everytime a passenger shows aggressivity.

[flapsforty]

Right there with you Jumbo.
In theory, offloading's the only way.

In practice, as CC you are aware of the commercial pressures. Offloading takes time, more so since the offender likely has luggage that will need to be off-loaded with him.
Delay for all the other pax who have paid good money to fly with your company and can reasonably expect an on time arrival at their destination. To be on time for that meeting/wedding/funeral/onward connection. Should they suffer because of one idiot?
Will the captain agree with you about the off-load? Will the company back you up or will YOU be blamed for the extra fuel, the time-table upset and the claims from pax?

In theory, aggressive behaviour is intolerable.
But are we talking instrumental aggression, random aggression, criminal aggression, mental disturbance or just someone who is stressed out by all the hassle at the airport and who will settle down once you're in the air?
You don't know, yet once you are taxying, or maybe about to take off at a very busy airport with an aggressive pap yelling at you like happened to me recently, you have to make that split-second decision........

So sometimes I ask the Captain to offload, sometimes I don't.
In my recent case we delayed the take-off run, the captain made a PAS urging the pap to comply with safety rules immediately and we took off 2 minutes later.
Result was a 12 hour flight from hell with an out of control, manipulative, abusive man who upset everybody around him and claimed enormous amounts of time and attention from both cockpit and CC plus endless writing of IFRs, ASRs and explanations to customer relations once this man filed a claim.

Departing with him on board was the wrong decision.
Hindsight 20/20 and all that.

******************

Yes we are trained to deal with abuse, different companies train their CC in different ways, and cultural differences also play a part. Staying calm and rational while attempting to soothe tempers does too. As does getting the pax to feel understood and 'seen', while at the same time making it clear that certain types of behaviour will not be tolerated and will end badly for the person himself. Different strategies to defuse the situation are available, but with some people nothing will ever do the trick. If we were able to exactly pin point those pax, life would be a lot sweeter.

To stay calm and polite in the face of abuse is horribly difficult, but age and experience help. Also helpful is trying to keep in mind that these people are "abusing your uniform" rather than you as a person.
Just the same, it makes me sad when it happens, and I always wonder what I should have done differently and better.
Nice to hear that there exist people like you who admire our self control

The whole thing is a swinging pendulum; next time, I will again be more forceful about an offload. Time after that I'll be inclined to hope for the best and let it go.
.... and again and again and again.....

[Abusing_the_sky]

flapsforty wrote a brilliant and very true post!

Unfortunately, it happens more and more often; when it happens to me (or anyone in my crew), after analyzing my options i tend to go by "better safe than sorry" - i started using this "motto" if you want after deciding not to off load one of these "abusers" and, just like flapsforty, we ended operating the flight from hell.

The commercial side of an offload (go back to the gate, delay a/c and so on - the a/c makes money in the air, never on the ground) is, sadly, a pressure to the flight crew and CC. However, I would say that in my airline, 99.9% of the CPs will support our decision to offload a pax and should the company turn around and question the offloads' costs, he/she will point out that the safety of the crew and pax have NO cost.

Also, reports are being written and statements to the police given.
Some companies may take the offender (i really want to say idiot but I'll keep it formal...) to court and ask for him to pay the costs of the delay.

And again, as flapsforty mentioned, we are being trained to deal with an abusive pax; we (in my company) also had a self defense day course which did absolutely nothing for me, somehow i don't see myself fighting with one of these "abusers".
Self control, calm and quick thinking do it for me.

And it's not only on the ground when it happens; some might kick off inflight, and you can't really "go back to the gate"... If we don't manage to deal with it, the CP (who we keep informed at all times) might divert to the nearest airport, off load, police will arrest, company might ask for costs to be paid and so on (as above).

No matter when and where it happens, i think there are ways of dealing with it calmly; having said that, if it gets really bad, some other pax might get involved to try and help us (again, it happened to me).

these people are "abusing your uniform" rather than you

The best, and healthiest attitude one could ever have in a situation like this!

[Little_Red_Hat]

Every time I didn't offload- I regretted it.

I explain to the passenger the situation, that I understand why they are frustrated but that because of X i must do Y. I give them the options and explain what will happen if they do not comply. Any sign of aggression- they are off. I do not get paid enough, and passengers do not pay enough, to be abused and intimated by a fellow passenger who decides it's their right to kick off and abuse evrybody else. 9 times out of 10 the passenger apologises, explains they've had a bad day, and sits down not to be heard from for the rest of the flight. the other 1 time, is when they're offloaded and then proceed to kick off in the terminal.

I learnt the hard way that the times you don't offload are the times you wish you did. Ten times better for them to be left behind kicking and screaming... than to be kicking and screaming at US at 30, 000ft!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jumbo744]

thanks for the information given.

I have 2 years experience with customer service as I was running my own computer business here in West Africa. And I came across many difficult people, but it was easy for me to "win" as it was my property and I could take them physically out of the store if I wanted to but never did as I would be very ashame of doing that.

But I always been a little bit surprise and shocked by some peoples behaviors, and at the beginning I was thinking about it even at nights "why was this customer so aggressive? did I do anything wrong?", then when I decided to let it go and swallow my pride when in front of a difficult customer, I started feeling better.

For me Aviation represents so much, it's still "magic", and I'm so sad when I see people acting like that. You want to tell them "you are not on a bus, you are going to fly at 39000 feet at 900 kmh safely, have some respect for that".

Also It's sad to see that many passengers consider cabin crew as waitress instead of life savers.

What can be done to make passengers conscious of that? Maybe airlines should include a notice attached to the security briefing card explaining all of that. Explaining that yes passengers are customers but also that their behavior is very important for the safety of everyone and that discipline is expected from them.

I think that management should always backup cabin crews when unloading passengers. I think his luggage should stay in the plane and he should wait for it to return.

[Cunliffe]

I recall an incident on BA some years ago when a passenger was verbally abusive to a stewardess, but in the end it turned out quite amusing.
The aircraft departure from a very snowy Malmo was delayed by late arrival from Heathrow which had experienced its annual 1 inch of snow.
The middle aged businessman was telling the poor young lady what he thought of BA punctuality. She looked like she was barely out of school and from the expression on her face I thought she might burst into tears.
However, she apologised profusely and then added "and would you believe, half way across we had to get out and push".
Loud laughter all around and not another peep from the man.

[Abusing_the_sky]

Post of the year here folks!!!

Jumbo, how we wish not all, but the majority of pax to be like you, to see it's not that easy.

But i guess it all comes with the job, surely it's written somewhere in the contract, a clause along the lines of "at times, you will be treated like something one stepped in, you will be shout at, maybe pushed, perhaps you'll break a tooth... - DEAL WITH IT". I keep looking in my contract but no luck finding it so far

[Almondgrove]

Passangers insulting cabin crew

As a pax I would only be glad that the agressive and often potentially dangerous individual is off -loaded. I think most reasonable passangers will accept that there might be a delay as a result - but better to have a pleasant and safe flight than a nightmare of having to suffer such behaviour for hours on end in the air!

Similarly, I think airport staff/ airline staff need to be more strict with passengers who are already drunk prior to boarding! Perhaps if these people would have to fork out for another ticket they would think
twice before getting legless prior to a flight.

I have had dubious "pleasure" of travelling with a group who spent rather too much time (and money) in the bar prior to the flight on more than one occasion. While their behoviour was "silly" rather than aggressive ( thank God for that) being round them was not very pleasant and somewhat scary - I was not sure if and when their behaviour would get out of hand.
I am an adult - but it was even more scary to my child!

I love flying and really appreciate the hard work both the pilots and cabin crew do !: You don't need the agression! Neither do the passangers.

Offload them, charge them any costs - other passengers will only thank you for that.

Happy flying!

[Magic Buff]

Bouncers

I would like to raise a point here folks, isnt there a case these days with the advent of aggressive passengers, to have at least one member of the crew, who is in effect a 6ft 5 gorilla, who if push comes to shove can either intimidate an agressive passenger into keeping his hands at his side, or keeping his gob shut, or who in the worst case scenario can knock his block off, not very pretty I know, and these people would need to be trained, so that the knocking off of the block is the last option, but wouldnt other passengers feel much safer like this,to know that capeability exists. I know it is very nice to be served by young and beautiful people and the airlines have traditionally recruited with this in mind from a public relations point of view, but with all due respect to them a young 20 year old waif of a stewardess about 5ft 4 '' weighing about 8 stone is really not going to be able to deter a nutter, were as he will sit down like a little lamb for a 6ft 5'' oaf. Or face severe consequences. It shouldnt be all cabin crew, but at least one such a person should be with every crew.

[Jumbo744]

while we are on the subject, I have another question:

I remember travelling in planes as a kid, in the 90s, the Pilots were talking more often to the pax through the PA than today. It was very refreshing to hear the pilot give some informations like what are we flying over and etc... why has this practice been abandoned?
I will finish my flight training soon and hope to be a captain one day, I think that I would enjoy "talking" with the passengers, or does it depend on the airline policy?

[TopBunk]

It was very refreshing to hear the pilot give some informations like what are we flying over and etc... why has this practice been abandoned?

Most aircraft these days have IFE equipment on board, a lot of the time they allow personal choice of programmes. Whenever you make a PA, the programming is interrupted which is most frustrating, even it the programme restarts where it left off. Secondly, many IFE systems have a moving map feature which allows you to follow the route in real time. Thirdly, only a small proportion of people can have a window seat, so telling them you are flying over xyz will annoy the majority who can't see anyway. Fourthly, on long haul flights many will want to sleep, making a PA may wake them up. Fifthly, not everyone will speak the language of the person making the PA. Sixthly, they don't pay me enough and I'm not a tour guide!

[Rananim]

The best lead FAs keep a handle on things regardless.You can diffuse sarcasm and hostility with wit and humor.Sometimes.Very often the passenger will get back to you an hour later and apologize.Thats the best way.If it doesnt work,then you have to take it the next level which might mean offloading or even physical restraint.
Moderation is key in the way FAs approach the job.Youre not teacher and the passengers arent students.Sometimes,a passenger will need to go to the head when the plane is taxiing or the signs are ON.Its rare but can happen.The world wont stop turning.
Weve all seen Anger ManagementIt works both ways.Both sides can be difficult or have a SOH failure.I empathize with both sides equally.Ever since 911,most US passengers sit quietly and button it tight.Doesnt necessarily mean theyre happy,they just dont want to get shot.

[VAFFPAX]

I'm a FF who wholeheartedly will see aggressive pax chucked off a plane. I don't mind waiting, usually the people on the other end understand when you tell them your departure was delayed thanks to some ungrateful sod who had to get abusive with the f/c. Get rid of them, everyone will probably be applauding you for getting rid of the sod(ette).

Of course, there is always the exception - someone who just vents their spleen and then shuts up and passes out or something, but those are in the distinct minority and fading very very fast.

As for the IFE - IFE has not stopped certain VS and BA pilots from occasionally giving pax a running commentary before dinner and before breakfast is served. It is nice to know the guys/ladies up front are happy to show us some interesting things. I particularly liked the commentary by our BA pilot ex-BOD to LGW in July this year where he told us all about the different bits of coastline of France we were flying over, and then pointed out some stuff while we were delayed into LGW.

:-)

S.

[Little_Red_Hat]

No need for bouncers on every airline though... I once flew with a girl who to look at you'd think she couldn't hurt a fly. However, she was ex police special unit and also did a stint in the army.

Just for fun (and after a couple of bevvies I must admit ) on a nightstop we asked her to demonstrate on our captain after he'd given her some good-natured teasing on the flight over.

She had him on the floor and helpless in 3 seconds flat. He was 6 foot something and beefy as (bouncer type ) and she was about 5' 5" and nothing to her.... :P So looks can be deceiving!!

Jumbo, when a passenger is offloaded, the baggage MUST go too... I believe the practise came about after a lot of aircraft bombings back in the 80's (Lockerbie, anyone?) where passengers(terrorists) 'missed' the flight... now the nutters just bring the bag on and stay with it, but it's done to minimise the risk of the would-be bomber who just has to check a bag in and run... I believe it may even be law. Hope this helps explain it for you.

[Rush2112]

Add me to the list of SLF who would be more than happy to be delayed if it meant offloading an abusive, aggressive passenger.

I deplore this era of cheap flight for all and am a fierce advocate of compulsory IQ tests before anyone is allowed to buy an airline ticket.

If you do not know how to behave on a plane, you have no business being on one and ruining it for the rest of us, and certainly no business threatening people who are doing their best to be of service to you.

[13 please]

hear hear Rush2112.!!

Rananim, how can you empathise with both sides equally....???

One is being an eedjit, possibly dangerous, unhinged eedjit..

The other is doing their job....

??

[flapsforty]

VAFFPAX and Almondgrove, thank you for the input. It is heartening to read that some passengers would understand and even applaud the offloading of potential troublemakers.

Magic Buff, if only! That would be absolutely wonderful.

Rananim, agree with all you write. From my point of view, that's how it is. One caveat; I find that the incidence of pax with a phsychiatric condition or a full blown personality disorder appears to be on the increase.
Normal problem-pax, a cabin pro can and should be able to deal with, as you describe.
Mental patients are outside our remit.
Last year I had a chap who was completely psychotic. American footballer with extreme paranoia. It took all my wiles, considerable courage ( I was very afraid of him) and my complete, undivided 7 hour attention to keep this man from 'flipping' completely and going berserk.
We are not trained to deal effectively with people who are mentally ill.
Yet they fly.
But yes, your post sums it all up in a very balanced way.

There's one other aspect that I have no idea how to deal with, and which crops us every time.
Namely the fact that you hear later, from other pax, that the same individual had alreadycreated a disturbance on the ground, but that ground staff kept schtum and just shoved him/her onboard under the motto "good riddance".
It will likely always be thus, but is very frustrating.

13 please, perhaps if you re-read rananim's post, you will see that he does not actually empathise with seriously troublesome pax.
I read it to mean that he empathises with that vast majority of quiet well behaved pax who, in the post 911 USA, are afraid to make any wrong move at all for fear of the likely severe consequences heaped on them by over anxious ultra militant cabin crew.
But maybe I'm the one misreading his post.

[Tudor]

I deplore this era of cheap flight for all and am a fierce advocate of compulsory IQ tests before anyone is allowed to buy an airline ticket.

Are you suggesting intelligent people aren't capable of causing trouble? Some of the worse passengers I've dealt with weren't "chav scum" but people who really ought to know better. And it's precisely because they think they do know better that they behave the way they do. I'm sure you know the sort I mean - white, middle-class, "I know my rights", Daily Mail reading, Merlot-glugging pompous asses.

I actually prefer to deal with, shall we say, the lower end of the market because firstly they don't think they're better than you and look down their noses at you and secondly you can often have a good old argument with them without them taking umbrage!

[Jumbo744]

Little Red Hat, Top Bunk,

thanks, good points I didn't think about!

[Magic Buff]

Ground staff

Flaps 40, a good post, and I do know that there are some members who take the good riddance approach. However having worked on the ground a long time myself, I do know that 90 per cent of shall we say experienced ground staff, will prevent passengers who they believe to be unruly from getting to a flight. They themselves are often under tremendous pressure to get the flight away on time, and are often working with minimal staff in a highly charged environment and often simply do not have the time or opportunity to assess every passenger, other than the mandatory check in and gate proceedures ! We are forbidden absolutly from leaving an offloaded passengers bag on board, due to DFT AAA regulations 2002.

I would like to make a comment here also that the whole process of flying contributes dramatically to the stress many passengers feel, and this often comes out when they are onboard. They often arrive for flights, having got up very early, having paid a lot of money, needing to have all their peices of paper in order. Often with families or going to work, they have a hectic time travelling to the airport on roads and trains etc. Then they arrive at the airport in complete confusions, queing for ages at check in and security and gates, long walks through an unfamiliar airport, were they feel they are under strict observation and scrutiny. Not being able to find anyone who can answer their questions. They are ripped off with extortionate prices in the airport for just about everything, usually had a row with the missus/ husband, throw into this a lethal cocktail of alchohol and fear of flying and there you have it, a bomb waiting to go off metaphorically.

I do not know all the answers to these questions, but the halting of the free availability of alchohol and the rip off culture emplyed by the airports, might go some way to alleviating some of these problems.