Seriously Hacked Off!
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Seriously Hacked Off!
I flew back from a European city to LHR last night on a flag carrier. The Capt was doing a "meet & greet" at the door as we boarded. I introduced myself and asked if I could take the jump seat and being an obliging sort the Capt agreed and said if I dumped my things in the locker and spoke to one of the cabin crew he would let me up before t/o. The FA nearest me told me to sit down, when I explained what had just happened she said she would speak to the capt later on and to take my seat for the time being. I spoke to her again as the doors were being closed and again she said she would speak to the capt. I then saw her wander down to the galley and talk to her colleagues before starting the safety demo. 10 mins later we were on the threashold and no jump seat. I spoke to her again during the flight, and again before landing and got the same response each time. When we disembarked the capt saw me and asked why I hadn't come up to the flight deck. I told him that I had asked repeatedly which surprised him as none of the FAs had asked him if they could bring me up. I pointed out the FA I had spoken to and he called her over and gave her a serious dressing down for this.
My point in relating this little episode to you is not to shame and embarrass any one individual or airline but to point out that as a professional courtesy when a flight deck visit and ride in the jump seat is requested and granted it should not be for the FA to decide who does and does not gain access to the flight deck. That is for the capt of the aircraft and the capt alone to decide as was pointed out to this (experienced) FA. The apology I recieved from both the capt and FA will lay this matter to rest. I would ask any FA reading this to please consider that it is difficult for a captain to decide who does and does not gain access to the flight deck if the FA's on his aircraft don't pass these requests on, and frustrating for the rest of us when FA intransigence denies other pilots fdv's.
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Remember: all landings are controlled crashes!
[This message has been edited by kbf1 (edited 31 July 2000).]
My point in relating this little episode to you is not to shame and embarrass any one individual or airline but to point out that as a professional courtesy when a flight deck visit and ride in the jump seat is requested and granted it should not be for the FA to decide who does and does not gain access to the flight deck. That is for the capt of the aircraft and the capt alone to decide as was pointed out to this (experienced) FA. The apology I recieved from both the capt and FA will lay this matter to rest. I would ask any FA reading this to please consider that it is difficult for a captain to decide who does and does not gain access to the flight deck if the FA's on his aircraft don't pass these requests on, and frustrating for the rest of us when FA intransigence denies other pilots fdv's.
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Remember: all landings are controlled crashes!
[This message has been edited by kbf1 (edited 31 July 2000).]
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Highly annoying isn't it! However, I don't think that we're going to get too many replies here! 
CC do a great job (certainly one that I couldn't do), and I know they're run off their feet half the time, but then again a quick word only takes a second!
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I'm on my way!
[This message has been edited by Willy Jazz the cans 2 (edited 03 August 2000).]
CC do a great job (certainly one that I couldn't do), and I know they're run off their feet half the time, but then again a quick word only takes a second!
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I'm on my way!
[This message has been edited by Willy Jazz the cans 2 (edited 03 August 2000).]
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Well....youre right !! the Capt is the only person who can grant a F/Deck visit....but most of them rely on the opinions of f/a's as to the suitability of the person for such a visit (ie their appearance, I.D., whether they appear to be intoxicated etc), they rely heavily on f/a's perception of the individual in order to make their decision regarding visits. Maybe this flight attendant felt you werent suitable for some reason !! Maybe she/ he was too busy and just plain forgot ( we are human, and yes do make mistakes occasionally - albeit very rarely).
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Had I been drunk and/or drinking then that, of course, would have been a lefgitimate concern. Indeed had I been, I would not have asked in the first place. My appearance was fine, smart and casual, and I had spoken to the captain who was greeting people on the top of the stairs. He had given his ok and asked me to drop my kit and ask the f/a to show me down. Neither did she forget as she was reminded three times, on on the third occaision made a dismissive tutting sound and gave me the impression she couldn't give a toss about what the captain and I had discussed. My wife being a corporate travel agent, we were given upgrades to business class, and on the flight out to Madrid she had already commented to me that she would never book a client on this airline having seen how badly the pax were being treated, especially those that did not speak Spanish (which she does, almost fluently).
My point in raisning this issue is not to pull down f/s, who have a tough old job at the best of times, but to politely point out that pilots do fly other ailines, even us helicopter pilots and service pilots and to those of us who have a genuine interest in what goes on on the flight deck it is frustrating to say the least when and f/a prevents a fdv that the capt would otherwise, or in this case did, grant if he were just plain asked or informed of the request. More generally the pax pay the fares which keep the airline's in business, and to be treated like an annoyance really angers me, I payed for that flight, and rather wish I hadn't the fdv issue not-withstanding; but that is for a different post.
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Remember: all landings are controlled crashes!
My point in raisning this issue is not to pull down f/s, who have a tough old job at the best of times, but to politely point out that pilots do fly other ailines, even us helicopter pilots and service pilots and to those of us who have a genuine interest in what goes on on the flight deck it is frustrating to say the least when and f/a prevents a fdv that the capt would otherwise, or in this case did, grant if he were just plain asked or informed of the request. More generally the pax pay the fares which keep the airline's in business, and to be treated like an annoyance really angers me, I payed for that flight, and rather wish I hadn't the fdv issue not-withstanding; but that is for a different post.
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Remember: all landings are controlled crashes!
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You're point is totally accepted as a legitimate complaint, however, I would just like to point something out as well. I went to Tescco's once and received appalling service from a member of staff, but I don't feel compelled to write on the internet anywhere lecturing people who work in Supermarkets on how not of offend customers. Usually, when I do my shopping anywhere or visit a restuarant I have pleasant experiences therfore, on the odd occassion when I might meet an individual that spoils it, I take it as a one-off. No need to go to the mountain and shout about it to everyone else. I also think it quite unprofessional of a Captain to 'dress down' a member of his team in front of a passenger no matter how serious the matter - and lets face it folks, the above complaint is hardly serious. Any issues should be discussed in private away from the public. Sounds like the Capt was a pratt to me. What perception would that scene have painted to others around at the time. Not a good one. It wouldn't exactly project the 'team atmosphere' the people expect. Passengers don't realise that working as a team is absolutely essential to safety and CRM. Don't take my comment personally, just another point of view.
[This message has been edited by Birds2perches (edited 14 August 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Birds2perches (edited 14 August 2000).]
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I wouldn't necessarily say that the capt pointing out to the f/a that she was wrong to make an assumption is unprofessional, but that is conjecture (but it might be pertinent to point out only the three of us where present). Perhaps better placed for the SLF forum, but if I get poor service from an airline why shouldn't I shout about it? If no-one ever complained would anything ever change? Again, moot points, but ones I felt should have been brought up for discussion.
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Remember: all landings are controlled crashes!
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Remember: all landings are controlled crashes!
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kbf1,
The way I understand your story, you were (and are?) understandably upset. I would have been fuming myself.
Why you post it here I can also figure out. What would like to know is did you also voice your complaint there where it will actually make a difference? Did you write this story down and mail it to the airline in question?
'Cause really that's the only place where it's going to do any good at all.
Regards f40
The way I understand your story, you were (and are?) understandably upset. I would have been fuming myself.
Why you post it here I can also figure out. What would like to know is did you also voice your complaint there where it will actually make a difference? Did you write this story down and mail it to the airline in question?
'Cause really that's the only place where it's going to do any good at all.
Regards f40
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To answer your question, I did indirectly. If you look above you will see I mention that my wife is a corporate travel agent and she raised the issue with her rep for this airline, which will probably provoke more reaction internally than me firing off a letter. I am just a disgruntled pax, whereas she is a mgr with a major corporate client of this and other ailines. She is the one who will hit the reps paycheck if she recomends other airlines over this carrier and in effect stops selling their flights. I doubt in the long run it would make a difference because I have heard a number of people say they are bad in terms of customer service.
I raised the point here partly to bring the issue up as a talking point, partly to vent, and partly to see what the reaction of other fa's is/would be. I am a helicopter pilot and I don't necessarily have the same outlook as airline crew I wanted to know if it is usual for crew to disregard the instructions of an aircraft commander when the issue relates to pax. I can see situations when this would be called upon, such as drunk/incapable pax, but this situation was different. I suppose I also would have liked to have known if this level of indifference is common, and if so why? Perhaps it is something that needs to be addressed, perhaps you may feel that pax are an imbuggerance to your routine? I don't know but am curious to find out. I certainly did not expect to change the world, rather just discuss my thoughts and make the point.
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Remember: all landings are controlled crashes!
I raised the point here partly to bring the issue up as a talking point, partly to vent, and partly to see what the reaction of other fa's is/would be. I am a helicopter pilot and I don't necessarily have the same outlook as airline crew I wanted to know if it is usual for crew to disregard the instructions of an aircraft commander when the issue relates to pax. I can see situations when this would be called upon, such as drunk/incapable pax, but this situation was different. I suppose I also would have liked to have known if this level of indifference is common, and if so why? Perhaps it is something that needs to be addressed, perhaps you may feel that pax are an imbuggerance to your routine? I don't know but am curious to find out. I certainly did not expect to change the world, rather just discuss my thoughts and make the point.
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Remember: all landings are controlled crashes!
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Get a life it's not as thro' you arn't going to get another chance is it? We are a majority of us a professional group of people, who would do anything within reason for the pax. When you are on a short flt you don't have time to think about flt deck visits. Why didn't you ask another member of the crew, if you weren't happy?
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Judging from the dialogue so far it would seem that the whirlybird pilot (kbf1) has a legitimate complaint. Having worked as a hostie for about 4 years I've received more than my fair share of requests for flight deck visits, which can generally be accomodated. A couple of questions, did the paxing pilot mention that he had already spoken to the Captain? Or that he himself was a pilot? This may have expedited his request.
Even if this was not the case, it seems very slack to have repeated requests turned down out of hand, especially from a business class passenger.
In defence of the F/A in question, I can only say that prior to take off can be one of the busiest periods of flight, and as such sometimes 'nonvital' requests can get overlooked.
To have the request ignored midflight as well is just unprofessional, and makes the 'dressing down' by the captain justified.
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"Beware the self propelled Cargo"
Even if this was not the case, it seems very slack to have repeated requests turned down out of hand, especially from a business class passenger.
In defence of the F/A in question, I can only say that prior to take off can be one of the busiest periods of flight, and as such sometimes 'nonvital' requests can get overlooked.
To have the request ignored midflight as well is just unprofessional, and makes the 'dressing down' by the captain justified.
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"Beware the self propelled Cargo"
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In answer to your questions:
1. The Capt was at the top of the stairs and I spoke to him as I was boarding;
2. The flight had a short delay of about 15mins with the dors open, so little if any activity by the f/a's aprt from seating the pax;
I would have expected no more or less being in Business Class than Economy.
Slaag, it isn't a question of getting a life, more wishing to understand from an f/a's perspective if this is a common and deliberate occurerence and if so why? Name calling is something I don't rise to. I trust you do your job well and professionally, as di I (I hope)and I am interested to know where the bench-mark lies on this issue.
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Remember: all landings are controlled crashes!
1. The Capt was at the top of the stairs and I spoke to him as I was boarding;
2. The flight had a short delay of about 15mins with the dors open, so little if any activity by the f/a's aprt from seating the pax;
I would have expected no more or less being in Business Class than Economy.
Slaag, it isn't a question of getting a life, more wishing to understand from an f/a's perspective if this is a common and deliberate occurerence and if so why? Name calling is something I don't rise to. I trust you do your job well and professionally, as di I (I hope)and I am interested to know where the bench-mark lies on this issue.
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Remember: all landings are controlled crashes!
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A question for Slaag -
Why do you always find it necessary to be so agressive in all your opening statements? You seem to be a tad bitter towards anyone who you can accuse of having a lack of understanding about what it takes to be a flight attendant.
Awaiting your reply (expecting agression rather than reasoned argument)
Regards
ViP
Why do you always find it necessary to be so agressive in all your opening statements? You seem to be a tad bitter towards anyone who you can accuse of having a lack of understanding about what it takes to be a flight attendant.
Awaiting your reply (expecting agression rather than reasoned argument)
Regards
ViP
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Come on folks. Although Slaag was out of order for her use of dialogue isn't this just getting a little bit out of hand? So you didn't get to sit in the flight deck for landing. Gosh, sorry, but is your partner really going to pull the plug on them for this? You sure do sound seriously hacked off but sorry mate .... I have to say, I think you're over-reacting here. Life's too short to stew over such things. Surely you've got better things to worry about. There could have been a multitude of reasons for this. The hostie involved could have just been having a bad day. To suggest she deliberately didn't follow up your request sounds a bit strange. It's no hardship to ask if a pax can sit on the flight deck and in your case, it certainly would have been a much easlier life to let you!! Chill out!!
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B2P,
Personally I don't really have any interest in this thread, I am just curious as to why every time Slaag responds to anything he/she seems to feel it necessary to use agression in preference to reasoned discussion. It is supposed to be 'Civil' Aviation, isn't it?
Regards
ViP
Personally I don't really have any interest in this thread, I am just curious as to why every time Slaag responds to anything he/she seems to feel it necessary to use agression in preference to reasoned discussion. It is supposed to be 'Civil' Aviation, isn't it?
Regards
ViP
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Yeah, I would agree woth birds2, this seems to be a complete over-reaction. After all in your very first post you said you received a full apology from the crew member and the caption and that you were prepared to lay the matter to rest. But, it seems as your subsequent posts testify, you are still extermely pi$$ed of about the incident.
**** happens!
After all, I'm sure the ticked you bought had sometihng like seat 12A on it, and not JUMPSEAT rubber stamped all over it.
Jumpseats are only favours after all, and you can't really complainand sulk in other parts of life when someone refuses you a favour.
**** happens!
After all, I'm sure the ticked you bought had sometihng like seat 12A on it, and not JUMPSEAT rubber stamped all over it.
Jumpseats are only favours after all, and you can't really complainand sulk in other parts of life when someone refuses you a favour.
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well KBF1 you've rattled a few cages here.
I have to agree with you on some points however, I do feel that from personal experience,a letter to the Airline giving the details of the FA concerned is a better form of complaint.
Must say that a bollocking to the FA in front of PAX is harsh and not on.... Certainley wouldnt expect one from you in front of our pax. The girls and boys have a bloody hard job and don,t always get it right we all make mistakes .. I'm sure if you really want a JS trip you can ask at BM or Air 2 bob, there are plenty of our old mates working with them. I have to ask the question though,which airline was it? Her in doors is really intrigued! She's had a right laugh reading this over my shoulder. Well girls and boys sympathy is with you all you want to try keeping a load of squadies happy! Keep on smiling fly safe!
For Coffee Sir?
[This message has been edited by Rude C'man (edited 18 August 2000).]
I have to agree with you on some points however, I do feel that from personal experience,a letter to the Airline giving the details of the FA concerned is a better form of complaint.
Must say that a bollocking to the FA in front of PAX is harsh and not on.... Certainley wouldnt expect one from you in front of our pax. The girls and boys have a bloody hard job and don,t always get it right we all make mistakes .. I'm sure if you really want a JS trip you can ask at BM or Air 2 bob, there are plenty of our old mates working with them. I have to ask the question though,which airline was it? Her in doors is really intrigued! She's had a right laugh reading this over my shoulder. Well girls and boys sympathy is with you all you want to try keeping a load of squadies happy! Keep on smiling fly safe!
For Coffee Sir?
[This message has been edited by Rude C'man (edited 18 August 2000).]
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Dear Virgina
I'm not defending Slagg. If you want to know why she's aggressive, ask her. Anyway, she only said, 'get a life'. Maybe she has a dry sense of humour. I think sometimes people take general comments too much to heart. If people make personal attacks at an individual as has happened on this site, then it's a bit diferent. Once again, please don't take this to heart, I'm only responding to your question.
I'm not defending Slagg. If you want to know why she's aggressive, ask her. Anyway, she only said, 'get a life'. Maybe she has a dry sense of humour. I think sometimes people take general comments too much to heart. If people make personal attacks at an individual as has happened on this site, then it's a bit diferent. Once again, please don't take this to heart, I'm only responding to your question.