Virgin - Crew Discussions II

[virgin dolly]

New pay deal

Virgin's new pay deal.......? OH Dear....! Not good...!

FSM's loyalty package to go part-time after 10 years..? Can I ask what about the other loyal crew (CSS,SCC,CC) that have worked for ten years or more in their rank. Why can't they also go part-time after ten years....! Not that many would as who can afford it..! But why only offer FSM's part-time....?

Wrong, big mistake Virgin, please try and stop this sweetie talk by starting at the top of the cabin crew chain.

By the way when I attend these meetings I will be talking about "Variable manning" and "Crew down".......this is where management are making their mistakes.

Variable manning..no more Please,
Crew down..........no more please,

Now wouldn't these make great banners....!

What will the public think when they find out that Richard has been cutting corners to make a few more million and the passengers and crew are the ones that suffer.

Regards

Virgin Dolly xx

[Virginfun]

I have been at VS for 9 years now, so am in for the longhaul, thanks!

[Great Raymondo]

Bonkers

Absolutely bonkers. I understand the frustration crew feel but I think the bigger picture is being lost here. Challenge what's been offered? Absolutely.. but to a point where it is acceptable to both parties. This isn't and the imacts of strike action will be huge.

I find it quiet saddening that some crew are voting with having no idea of the potential consequences. Downsizing is the least that will happen which could mean stgoing from a crew salary and a permanent job today to nothing. This will also affect everyone on the ground, in the offices, possibly overseas if underperforming routes are dropped. It's not just VAA staff that are affected, any supplier that supplies services or product will also be hit.

The message that crew are the face and the most important people to the airline are drilled in from the first day of training. Crew are the end product and this is what passengers see. However, this is the tiny tip of the iceberg - the operation of getting aircraft off the ground day to day is the rest of that iceberg and it's huge.

It needs to be factual and realistic, not emotional, unrealistic and damaging.

[Virginfun]

Well said!!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Just out of interest.........
What was the outcome of the BA cabin crew strike?
How many Office/Ground folk lost jobs because of those darn crew?
Suppliers? What is their take on it?
Genuine question here!

[virgin dolly]

Striking, loss of jobs..? your being used...!

Dear all,
When the BA strike took place in 97 no one lost their jobs. the only people who lost their jobs further down the line were middle management.
My partner works for BA and had just joined the company. He was not fully informed why the crew had been fighting for so long with the management re pay and working conditions.
I showed my Ba friends the new pay deal and they were shocked and found it laughable....
What we need to remember is that I have had no annual increment for 14 years (BA get them every year on top of inflation) and a senior c/c member who becomes CSS after 4/5 years is on the same pay as me where i have more or less 10 years more experience.
Where is the loyalty in that? In the new pay deal we find that FSM's will get a loyalty package and be offered part time as part of this.
What about the rest of the crew regardless of rank with 10 years+ service?
Where we are being used are; crew down/variable manning/working up payments and non annual increment payments.
OK the new deal is better but falls miles short of what we deserve. We have been used for too long and it's time to stand up for ourselves. With more part time FSM's, CSS's will be working up more and Virgin will be saving money!
We should not be working crew down FULL STOP/variable manning as this should only happen during disruption will the full agreement of the union.
Do you realise how much Virgin is saving each day by not putting 2 c/members on a flight? £££££££££££££'s!!!!!!!
We are forced to work under more stress and more the fool us b/c we have put up with it!
Under UK law every one in the union who agrees to strike cannot be disciplined by the company. It is their right to voice their opinion.#
Please FSM's and CSS's attend these meetings and get your voices heard.
REMEMBER this is the thin edge of the wedge and if we give in now rest assured the company will keep cutting and cutting....
PLEASE SAY NO TO THIS NEW PAY DEAL and let's go back to the table and fight for a REAL DEAL which we all deserve.
Do you really think that RB will let Virgin Atlantic go down the pan when he has the start of Virgin Red, the success of Virgin Blue and where his pax will have the opportunity to fly around the world on a VS aircraft?

Regards

Dolly

[pokergirl]

I agree virgindolly. I am a fsm but have only been in rank for two years. As stated in earlier posts there are some elements of the deal which i like. However I do feel that once again the company has shot themselves in the foot by rewarding loyalty for only one rank. We have some fantastic crew who keep the service standards up with ten years service + , where is there reward. I have friends in BA also and i really think that there pay increments are spot on . A girl i commuted with the other day is part time with ba after 14years service on the new contract and comes out with more than me as an fsm . Because ba have taken the purser from the upper deck and reduced the amount of pursers required on the 747's her chances of being promoted have dwindled so in recognition of this she is now on the top of her pay increment. She has no management responsibilties at all and as i said clears more than a full time fsm with us!!!!!!!!! NO justice. I havent been able to attend these meetings at the base but i hope voices are heard and listened to.

[virgin dolly]

FSM & CSS meetings with management

I'm booked in this week to have a meeting with the management I may be one voice but I hope to be heard, will update you all with my feedback.

Regards,

Virgin Dolly

[Tags]

Comparison with BA

Virgin Dolly,

As per my post (#74), there are a few parts to your contract that differ to that of the BA crews.

You need to compare apples with apples. Speaking to a colleague downroute the other day, he mentioned he had several C/C friends in BA. Their package is different to yours in many ways. For instance they don't get private healthcare, LHR longhaul C/C can request only 2 trips a year, (& can't swap trips) and their concessions are extremely limited compared to ours - that are perhaps the best in the industry.

Would you give these items up to get closer to the financial reward that your BA colleagues earn?

[virgin dolly]

BA vs Virgin

Dear Tags,

I would give up many of my concessions as I don't use them and my colleges don't either.

We are talking now of the older crew who have families, homes and mortgages to pay for.

Yes it would be a loss to lose health care but I have spoken to many crew who have found it hard to use our health care system. We are taxed on our health care.

Ba main crew get 2 request a year, pursers 3 and CSD's 4. if the request is not achieved then it goes back in to the system until all of them have been used. I have been working for 14 years and still do not get my requests. I know many crew with many more years senior that still only get 5 to 6 requests a year.

BA have a back to back flight that your are able to swap which you get every month more or less. I understand that Virgin was looking in to this but would not pay the £70 LHR payment. V crew would love this as many crew commute long distances and I don't think the crew would worry about the extra payment that comes with a BA back to back.

My partner earns twice a much as me for doing the same job and thank the lord pays more of the mortgage than me.

Many crew do not use the 7 free flight that comes in our package and is generally used only by the new crew who come inboard.

We do not what to go crew down any more for £10, £20 it not worth the stress....we don't get paid enough. we want agreements like BA and we are using them as a comparison to move further forward in these pay issues. Ba don't go crew down because of a union agreement and if they do get paid
15 times what we do.

Overall I speak for most of the crew that would prefer to lose some benefit and to be rewarded financially.

Regards,

Virgin Dolly

[Virginfun]

I am just a happy crew member who is happy with the deal considering the current airline situation.

I got a good job which allows me to pay the bills everymonth, I travel all around the world on cheap flights thanks to my employer and enjoy what I do.

BA this, BA that, they are recruiting now so go and work for them where you will get one free ticket after seven years. Good old BA who get paid this and that!!!

I hope you expressed your views direct to managers when they were at check in over the past few weeks because they are the ones who are sat round the table who will listen and not random people who read this forum!!!

When you started at Virgin did you take on the job thinking the salary was fine?? or did you take on the job thinking in a few years you would get a ten thousand pay rise?? what were your thoughts when you accepted the job??

Sorry, its a YES from me.

[TightSlot]

Posting in a Large Font and messing around with formatting doesn't make your point more valid (or necessarily easier to read).

Posts that say nothing more than 'Vote No' or "Vote Yes" are a waste of everybody's time and will be deleted.

Now that we know all of that, please could it stop

[Virginfun]

hang if i remember correctly on round 2 of the pay talks it was mentioned that some staff travel perks would be removed to accomodate the request for more money.

There was up roar from crew who would lose some of there staff travel!!!

''Many crew do not use the 7 free flight that comes in our package and is generally used only by the new crew who come inboard

Overall I speak for most of the crew that would prefer to lose some benefit and to be rewarded financially''

I dont think staff travel should be lost!! I wonder what the commuters would say if we lost the agreement with BA????

[pokergirl]

Its not fust BA that commuters use you know virginfun. So therefore half the company workforce would prob have to leave if those tickets were taken away. But it doesnt cost virgin money for commuters to get those tickets so it would be a time wasting exercise.

Yes we are lucky , once again as ive said before we have the opportunity to be flexible with our rosters, excellent staff travel for those who want to use it..healthcare etc...

But because of the way the company have played this there is understandably alot of resentment. Yes there has to be compromise to come to a deal that suits all which is nigh on impossible because its always going to affect someone in some sort of a way.

I mentioned Ba earlier because yes it does insult me personally now as a fsm that a ccm is earning more than me, with all the responsibiltys that i have.

[bcf&gloves]

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with you Virginfun! The salary that we take home is not acceptable. The allowances that so many crew don't spend whilst down route to take home to supplement their income shouldn't have to.

I think that BA is a perfect company to use as an example, they pay their crew well, there staff turnover is minimal, and the crew have a voice, with the backing of a strong union. What do we have very low crew morale, high staff turnover, no respect from the company and a union who seems to think we should just now roll over and accept this frankly rubbish offer!

I have worked for several airlines, and have to say that whilst our benefits package is fantastic, the important thing that is salary is shocking especially when you look at what we get paid compared to our counter parts working for other airlines, be that Easyjet, BA, Ryanair the list goes on..... they all get paid a lot more than we do!

[tinkerbelle]

Virgin fun - you live in a dream world By the sounds of it you are being paid a pilots salary if you have enough money left every month to pay your bills and come out HAPPY and smiling. I have been with Virgin quite a few years and still every month I struggle to find the money to pay my mortgage, my bills and get to work (this will be even more of a struggle now as the fuel costs have risen). I never have any money left for a rainy day and I try so hard down route to save my allowances at every opportunity, even though this allowance is for food and water whilst down route.

I personally think that you are not a crew member but management watching the pprune postings and replying to those people who are negative about the pay deal with something positive to get the deal through You have already been warned about posting in BOLD LARGE letters and airing you view which way the votes should go - let people decide what they want to vote - we are the ones that have to live on the salaries!!!

[BlueTui]

Each airline has its positives.
Charter- well paid lh/sh best of both worlds but frowned upon and hard work
BA LHR= SH or LH Well paid
BA LGW= SH/LH Lower paid than LHR and charter but faster promotion
VS= only LH good consessions poor pay, better promotion than charter and BA
Low cost= SH only, very fast promotion, at home every night

Like I said each has points that suits someone better than others.

There will always be things we can change within our respective companies and things we cannot, we all need the wisdom to realise what that is. Every company has perks the others dont and I hate this saying but cannot word it any more diplomatically if you dont like it move on!

Virgin will never pay what BA do ever comparing the two is like comparing chalk and cheese! their pay structure and conditions stem from the good old days and they have retained most of them, it is easier to keep a good thing than get a good thing especially in todays markets.

There is no company that is 100% perfect for anyone, just companies close to it. My advice is find yours and stick to it.

If you want the glamour of constant long haul and to be able to say "I work for Virgin Atlantic" then stay, If you want a big increase in salary or terms and conditions then go to BA LHR or if you want even faster promotion go to EZY

[scoobydooo]

BlueTui - you have a very strong union at TUI which is good and helps and protects you guys.

The Union at virgin appears weak and the company is pretty much walking all over it, at least that is how many of it's members feel i.e. the fit nicely in the managements back pocket !

As for moving on, been done to death - I imagine the argument was probably even used when the Virgin Pilots nearly went on strike - the unions said,

Pilots want a two-year deal worth 12 per cent above inflation and a 3.5 per cent boost to pensions. Pilots' representatives argue that Virgin's flight crew are paid 25 per cent less than their colleagues at British Airways

(comparing apples with apples Tags )

Yes, the pilots could of said, ho hum ok I'm leaving Virgin off to BA because they pay more, but they didn't they fought for what they believed. We work for the same company and are fighting for what we believe also.

The outcome of their negotiations, well the company said,

Virgin Atlantic's flight operations director, conceded that the airline was "not a market leader" for pay but said it could not afford a bigger rise.

Outcome, this bit is hearsay I dont know the full facts ( perhaps a Flight crew member could confirm) - after lots of negotiations the pilots decided strike was the only resort left - the strike was arranged and called off at the last minute and an outcome satisfactory to the pilots was achieved.

The lesson we can see in that case is the management wouldnt even negotiate properly with the Pilots what hope is there for cabin crew - so we may well have to go the distance too.

[virgin dolly]

Dear scoobydooo

I'm thinking that you don't work for Virgin and that you are management of a high level. I like the way you are looking at our situation from both sides and you comments are very much appreciated.

I like working for Virgin thats why I have been with them for over 14 years.
I do talk about BA a lot but I'm only using them as a comparison with their pay and union agreements which will must learn from. Yes we will never get pay like BA but with a stronger union and better working conditions with can all move forward in a positive way.

I didn't realize how much resentment was out there with the crew..!, I hope with these meeting that management have set up that they learn from the low morale and no show of confidence.

Regards Virgin Dolly x

[scoobydooo]

Below are figures taken from a poster on cabin crew dot com.

I have been working out just how much an average crew member could expect to take home extra per month based on the current offer. The blue table below summarises my findings. It assumes 5 trips per month, that's a 60 a year (the current offer assumes 45 per annum to calculate back pay) so I have been generous. The table does below are my workings - they do not allow for any duty free revenue. Tax & NI are assumed at 30% total. My workings are below though the layout on here is not great

Extra Per Month comparing to current package.

------------------Year 1 ------------ Year 2 ------------ Year 2
------------ -------4.8% ------------ RPI 3.5% ------------ RPI 2%
________________________________________________
FSM-------------81.84------------166.02 -------------- 144.93
CSS-------------68.60------------125.18 -------------- 90.92
SCC-------------45.62------------80.15 ---------------- 62.34
CC---------------39.61 ------------69.53 --------------- 53.71
IFBT-------------47.66 ------------83.71 --------------- 65.27