Virgin - Crew Discussions II
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Hi. This isn't exactly crew related but just want to warn you all. I was a CSA until just recently. My probabation was "not confirmed" because injured myself at home and was off for 8 days with a Doctors Certificate.
I know I'm not crew and this doesn't have anything to do with the pay dispute but just something you should be aware of, as it would apply to crew aswell. Don't go sick when on probation.
I know I'm not crew and this doesn't have anything to do with the pay dispute but just something you should be aware of, as it would apply to crew aswell. Don't go sick when on probation.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Tags - Thank for your reply very interesting, if we give up certain things for the company then I believe a 1 year pay deal would make sense in order to see - how things have gone, has what was promised been delivered etc and then a 2nd set of negotiations a year down the line. AT this point I do very much feel a 3 year deal would not be in the best interest of the crew - unless of course it is a fantastic deal !
SITYR - Yes, I agree - the list is a wish list, basis for the start of negotiations, rather than a this is the minimum I will accept and the company then trying to apply the squeeze on that.
As for the pre-ops facility, it is there already (or it was until the No vote came in last week - coincidently timed staff shortages !!).
So it would not cost the company much to provide the service 24/7 and a guaranteed response time - it's pretty much what they were doing already. But in providing it as a contractual item serves 2 purposes -
VS-LHRCSA - sounds fishy what happened - especially if you had a docs note - are you represented by a union if so may be worth a word with them, failing that Human resources.
SITYR - Yes, I agree - the list is a wish list, basis for the start of negotiations, rather than a this is the minimum I will accept and the company then trying to apply the squeeze on that.
As for the pre-ops facility, it is there already (or it was until the No vote came in last week - coincidently timed staff shortages !!).
So it would not cost the company much to provide the service 24/7 and a guaranteed response time - it's pretty much what they were doing already. But in providing it as a contractual item serves 2 purposes -
- They cant just switch it off again without being in breach of contract.
- If we get it in the employment contract the cost to the company to "switch it back on" is minimal (if anything) so they have given something we wanted perhaps we now give something they want... and thus the negotiation continues.
VS-LHRCSA - sounds fishy what happened - especially if you had a docs note - are you represented by a union if so may be worth a word with them, failing that Human resources.
Last edited by scoobydooo; 6th Sep 2007 at 10:21.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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No, CSAs don't have a union. To be honest, I'm not bothered. I have interviews lined up and will hopefully move on. Definately learned my lesson though.
Good luck with your pay deal. Hope it works out for you.
Good luck with your pay deal. Hope it works out for you.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Letter to Brian Boyd
This has just dropped in my intray. Brilliant!!
Please see letter sent from WDMM to Brian Boyd. Please pass this on
Dear Mr Boyd
Following the 92% no vote we have seen very little communication from our union or even a willingness to engage with us. Where is the ballot for strike action?
At no point have the union thought to ask what we are looking for and subsequently a situation has arisen where you were strongly recommending a deal, which was completely at odds with what we wanted. We are surprised and disappointed that you, as our newly appointed representative, have not addressed this and explained why to this point you have not represented our views in any negotiations with the company . Before going forward in this process we need to know that you are on our side and that you clearly understand what we are looking for.
In the absence of any communication or research by Amicus, a number of us have been polling the crew on recent flights. We have spoken to at least 300 crew and continue to receive hundreds of emails and a massive majority expressed the minimum deal they would accept which is outlined below.
We want a 2 year deal only. Not a 3 year deal
Year 1
Year 2
Amongst the FSM/CSS's we feel undervalued compared to our colleagues in other airlines in respect of our basics salary, more so than other ranks. There is a strong feeling amongst the FSM's that pay must rise to at least £28000 and £23000 for CSS. We all seem happy if need be to pursue this through a separate union.
Self funding?
The idea of self funding is not acceptable in any way, either terms of our remuneration, benefits or working practices. End of conversation.
Therefore in no way are any of the following acceptable
-Loss of crewmember of 600 or any other aircraft.
-Loss of airshare or reduction in any way. We would like a air share payment introduced which reflects our revenues rather than profit similar to that of the FD.
-No further increase to the block of standby in 3 year period
Planning for future pay increases.
Lyell Strambi mentioned in a recent company communication regarding the Base, that they had been putting money aside to invest for a number of years. Can we ask him why he has not adopted a similar approach to cabin crew pay?
How can present pay increases be funded
There are clearly ways of reducing costs in other areas
-BBMT courses
-Cabin service training days incorpaarteted with SEP
-Why do we have so many ground managers? Directors? If the company want to save money take the BA approach and clear out the huge number of senior and middle managers we have. BA manage to make huge profits and at the same time pay their crew considerably more than any realistic level of pay we are looking for.
Almost everyone we have spoken to would rather take industrial action rather than accept anything less than what is outlined above. Mr Boyd, you have clearly taken on the role as our representative and as such you must now start to listen to us, represent us and ensure what is outlined above is the minimum we accept.
The pilots got their deal last time, it is our turn now. Please do not underestimate our willingness to see this through to the end and we will certainly not forgive the union for any further mistakes.
WDMM
Please see letter sent from WDMM to Brian Boyd. Please pass this on
Dear Mr Boyd
Following the 92% no vote we have seen very little communication from our union or even a willingness to engage with us. Where is the ballot for strike action?
At no point have the union thought to ask what we are looking for and subsequently a situation has arisen where you were strongly recommending a deal, which was completely at odds with what we wanted. We are surprised and disappointed that you, as our newly appointed representative, have not addressed this and explained why to this point you have not represented our views in any negotiations with the company . Before going forward in this process we need to know that you are on our side and that you clearly understand what we are looking for.
In the absence of any communication or research by Amicus, a number of us have been polling the crew on recent flights. We have spoken to at least 300 crew and continue to receive hundreds of emails and a massive majority expressed the minimum deal they would accept which is outlined below.
We want a 2 year deal only. Not a 3 year deal
Year 1
- 6% pay increase backdated
- Increase to trip pay as outlined in earlier deals. Pensionable from year 1
- Crew down payment increased for each crewmember per trip to £50/1 crew down. £100/2 crew down, £200/3 crew down.
Year 2
- 4% increase to basic, trip and crew down payments
Amongst the FSM/CSS's we feel undervalued compared to our colleagues in other airlines in respect of our basics salary, more so than other ranks. There is a strong feeling amongst the FSM's that pay must rise to at least £28000 and £23000 for CSS. We all seem happy if need be to pursue this through a separate union.
Self funding?
The idea of self funding is not acceptable in any way, either terms of our remuneration, benefits or working practices. End of conversation.
Therefore in no way are any of the following acceptable
-Loss of crewmember of 600 or any other aircraft.
-Loss of airshare or reduction in any way. We would like a air share payment introduced which reflects our revenues rather than profit similar to that of the FD.
-No further increase to the block of standby in 3 year period
Planning for future pay increases.
Lyell Strambi mentioned in a recent company communication regarding the Base, that they had been putting money aside to invest for a number of years. Can we ask him why he has not adopted a similar approach to cabin crew pay?
How can present pay increases be funded
There are clearly ways of reducing costs in other areas
-BBMT courses
-Cabin service training days incorpaarteted with SEP
-Why do we have so many ground managers? Directors? If the company want to save money take the BA approach and clear out the huge number of senior and middle managers we have. BA manage to make huge profits and at the same time pay their crew considerably more than any realistic level of pay we are looking for.
Almost everyone we have spoken to would rather take industrial action rather than accept anything less than what is outlined above. Mr Boyd, you have clearly taken on the role as our representative and as such you must now start to listen to us, represent us and ensure what is outlined above is the minimum we accept.
The pilots got their deal last time, it is our turn now. Please do not underestimate our willingness to see this through to the end and we will certainly not forgive the union for any further mistakes.
WDMM
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Scooby the "staff shortage" situ with pre ops and csc is a genuine one and nothing to do with current pay talks, it is as sign it suggested, to many crew abusing the service by swapping and re-swapping same trips just to get something better.
A very good friend of mine was on a maternity ground placement there and said that crew are calling numerous times per day to swap, then calling next day to swap again for something better, on top of doing this with pre ops via the v swap option. Pre ops have such a back log of swaps that they can no longer take calls as well. She said it is not uncommon to see rosters now where none of the origional trips havent been swapped for something else, just think of how many crew we have and the amount of resources that are going into this service.
Many crew are beginning to get argumentitive and demanding to be taken of mia etc with excuses of commuting, etc. My friend said it wasnt uncommon for her alone to take 250 calls in an 8 hour shift. It is very unrealistic to expect it to be a 24/7 service as it is not operational like crewing and is only a nicety. Most of the people who take these calls are grounded crew on maternity so they would never be expected to do night shifts. Besides who on earth would need to call at 3am with regards to a swap?
A very good friend of mine was on a maternity ground placement there and said that crew are calling numerous times per day to swap, then calling next day to swap again for something better, on top of doing this with pre ops via the v swap option. Pre ops have such a back log of swaps that they can no longer take calls as well. She said it is not uncommon to see rosters now where none of the origional trips havent been swapped for something else, just think of how many crew we have and the amount of resources that are going into this service.
Many crew are beginning to get argumentitive and demanding to be taken of mia etc with excuses of commuting, etc. My friend said it wasnt uncommon for her alone to take 250 calls in an 8 hour shift. It is very unrealistic to expect it to be a 24/7 service as it is not operational like crewing and is only a nicety. Most of the people who take these calls are grounded crew on maternity so they would never be expected to do night shifts. Besides who on earth would need to call at 3am with regards to a swap?
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WDMM
WDMM = We deserve more money
They are a group of senior fsm's and css's who seem to know what they are talking about. A group of vigilantes dressed in white if you like.
I think I have just flown with one as the questions they were fielding and replying to seemed to centre around a lot of what was in the letter.
Good on them I say. I dont think Brian Boyd is going to do us any favours and they are clearly going to to hold him to account.
Keep it going Boys and Girls
They are a group of senior fsm's and css's who seem to know what they are talking about. A group of vigilantes dressed in white if you like.
I think I have just flown with one as the questions they were fielding and replying to seemed to centre around a lot of what was in the letter.
Good on them I say. I dont think Brian Boyd is going to do us any favours and they are clearly going to to hold him to account.
Keep it going Boys and Girls
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WDMM Bravo !!
Is all I can say they have summed up everything I feel in their communication to the union.
Perhaps they should start a new union, unite would soon notice of members dropped and a new union came in to play !
Well done WDMM - T short slogan for the strike ?
Is all I can say they have summed up everything I feel in their communication to the union.
Perhaps they should start a new union, unite would soon notice of members dropped and a new union came in to play !
Well done WDMM - T short slogan for the strike ?
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WDMM
Bravo from me too. Reading my emails these guys have been working hard for the last few months, I think we need them to step forward and really take this by the horns. It is about time that we had someone fighting our corner. If the gossip is right about who make up WDMM then we have some great people pushing this. Would be good to see them enter the forums so we can get a dialogue going and would love to know what steps the crew should take and I think they will give us some direction.
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Will WDMM stand as reps?
BenW
I emailed the WDMM email address last week asking if they were looking to come forward and take a greater role, it seems a number of them will stand for the union elections when they next come up to get rid of the wasters we have at the moment. We can only keep our fingers crossed, these guys would be great
I emailed the WDMM email address last week asking if they were looking to come forward and take a greater role, it seems a number of them will stand for the union elections when they next come up to get rid of the wasters we have at the moment. We can only keep our fingers crossed, these guys would be great
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Its great that they have set this up as it might actually mean the company stand up and take notice of the crews views.
Would someone please PM me their email address or post it here?
Cheers
Would someone please PM me their email address or post it here?
Cheers
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WDMM contact
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Just a short message from the SLF in 22k
I realise that this is probably the wrong place to post this but I couldn't find anywhere else more suitable, sorry.
Just wanted to say that I travelled out on VS001 to Newark on 05/09 and back on VS02 on 07/09. I'd just like you to know how impressed I was with the professionalism of both Virgin cabin crews (and drivers!). I've travelled as SLF a fair amount and I've never seen such a hard working, polite and professional bunch... I could name a couple of names but I'm not too sure how suitable that would be on a public forum.
Many thanks,
BB
Just wanted to say that I travelled out on VS001 to Newark on 05/09 and back on VS02 on 07/09. I'd just like you to know how impressed I was with the professionalism of both Virgin cabin crews (and drivers!). I've travelled as SLF a fair amount and I've never seen such a hard working, polite and professional bunch... I could name a couple of names but I'm not too sure how suitable that would be on a public forum.
Many thanks,
BB
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Apologies for posting in your CC Forum,however having followed this discussions, some of you may wish to have a SLF,s perspective.
First I know you are there for passenger safety.
Second I know that you are under paid.
Third: I know you are employed by a commercial firm, whose sole purpose is to maximise profits.
However, with out giving offence:
Why did you decide to join, given that your starting salaries are so low?
The accounting practices of VA, as to register a profit or loss within the Virgin Group are, understandabilly legendary.
Why is the service in U/C (sorry, never flown economy) so bad that I have sent back my Virgin Gold Card No 00 900 53* *** and will no longer fly VA. Having being a member since 08/94.
Why do none of you care?
Sorry, this is only the view of some one who pays.
Ex mil and slf 17,200 hrs.
ER
First I know you are there for passenger safety.
Second I know that you are under paid.
Third: I know you are employed by a commercial firm, whose sole purpose is to maximise profits.
However, with out giving offence:
Why did you decide to join, given that your starting salaries are so low?
The accounting practices of VA, as to register a profit or loss within the Virgin Group are, understandabilly legendary.
Why is the service in U/C (sorry, never flown economy) so bad that I have sent back my Virgin Gold Card No 00 900 53* *** and will no longer fly VA. Having being a member since 08/94.
Why do none of you care?
Sorry, this is only the view of some one who pays.
Ex mil and slf 17,200 hrs.
ER
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etonrifle can you let us know why the service in u/c was so bad? Was it actually the service or was it the product (undeniably bad the crew know, but the company doesn't care because its cheap to provide)?
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eton - crew just trying to retain what conditions they have at present, every offer to date has tried to take something away from us (see post on v-flyer website about pay deal). As posted above also interested in why you no longer fly - crew attitude or company cut backs ?
glamourgirl available day - cant find an official CAA definiton (CAP371), though will be int he manuals somewhere - it may be same as CAA contactable Day - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...5&postcount=12
If you find it in the manual before me please post it here.
glamourgirl available day - cant find an official CAA definiton (CAP371), though will be int he manuals somewhere - it may be same as CAA contactable Day - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...5&postcount=12
If you find it in the manual before me please post it here.
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Having looked through our manual I can only find contactable which says contactable period is 0930-1200 local, however the times may be changed to meet operational requirements. The times of the contactable period will be shown on the roster. Only one "Available" period shall be rostered per day.
Dont know if that is clearly it or not.
Dont know if that is clearly it or not.