Virgin - Crew Discussions II
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WDMM emails
Presently we have over a 1000 email/mobile contacts and with the next ballot looming it would be great to really push our communications to everyone.
Please send your email address's to
[email protected]
United we stand!
Please send your email address's to
[email protected]
United we stand!
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With regard to the all the emails & texts contacts......just wondering how you would feel if the company started to contact you all in such a manner promoting their view. Sure you would all be very happy!!
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Tom
As I understand it the list has been collated form messages of support from numerous crew members, i.e. voluntarily.
I think if the company offered such updates people would be about as interested in them as they have been with the last 3 offers .
Scooby
As I understand it the list has been collated form messages of support from numerous crew members, i.e. voluntarily.
I think if the company offered such updates people would be about as interested in them as they have been with the last 3 offers .
Scooby
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Sorry to hear that you no longer fly with us anymore, it certainly would be interesting to find out the reason behind it. If you have read the forum as much as you said you have you would realise how much we DO care, and the reason these discussions have been going on for so long now is because the company wanted to make changes which would ultimately have the customers losing out which is want the majority of crew certainly do not want!!!!!!!
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Are you working on the ground? We need your help
With further pay talks coming up this week we have been doing much research through various organisations, even talking to key people from the pilots union. We have also managed to get some help from a seriously good accountant and our aim is to get some information to our dear Mr Boyd before he sits down with the not so dear LM next week.
If you are one of those grounded crew in pre ops, crews service area, finanace, Human resources and want to help us to put some finishing touches to some pretty intresting financial numbers then please get in contact with us through [email protected]
This is vital work and your help will show the lies we have been told and how little we are presently costing the company.
If you are one of those grounded crew in pre ops, crews service area, finanace, Human resources and want to help us to put some finishing touches to some pretty intresting financial numbers then please get in contact with us through [email protected]
This is vital work and your help will show the lies we have been told and how little we are presently costing the company.
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Cant say how I know (would give identity away).
Nice to know what they really think isn't it?
Really her pay should not be based on how much she can screw out of the crew
Nice to know what they really think isn't it?
Really her pay should not be based on how much she can screw out of the crew
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Unfortunately, the Cabin Crew and Senior Cabin Crew are paid the industry standard rate if not higher than other UK based airlines. Whilst there are thousands of applicants willing to take their place, they do not "Deserve More Money."
On the other hand, the CSS and FSM rank in particular are underpaid and undervalued.
Trying to separate the two issues will be difficult.
On the other hand, the CSS and FSM rank in particular are underpaid and undervalued.
Trying to separate the two issues will be difficult.
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IJWTF - I believe 'Pond life' to be the tiny minded scum that lives in water, algae etc.
Shanwick - what crap! basic pay at Virgin might be comparable but I don't think there is any other airline in the UK where crew take home only £1000 per month as a junior.
Just because other people want the job does not mean that crew like myself who have been around for several years don't deserve to earn a decent living wage.
Why should we suffer while the managers award themselves huge pay increases?
Will be great to hear the findings from WDMM.
Shanwick - what crap! basic pay at Virgin might be comparable but I don't think there is any other airline in the UK where crew take home only £1000 per month as a junior.
Just because other people want the job does not mean that crew like myself who have been around for several years don't deserve to earn a decent living wage.
Why should we suffer while the managers award themselves huge pay increases?
Will be great to hear the findings from WDMM.
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Shanwick - do you work for virgin as either a CSS or FSM? If you do I find it hard to beleive you are on here trying to screw the crew that work for you on your flights. Do we not ALL deserve more money? Fair enough there will always be thousads of people wanting to do this job, but you need people to stay and work for years to gain the promotions to the more senior roles.
If we all joined with a view to stay just a year, where is the care and commitment to the customer? Some of us want to work up to FSM eventually, but with pay as it stands the airline will just become a revolving door with regards to recruitment. The attitude of everybody being easily replaced does nobody, least not the airline any favours.
With regards to LM's comment regarding we're all pond life, I heard on Galley FM the other day that if we'd accepted the last pay offer, she'd have got a tasty 10k bonus. Only Galley FM - but food for thought regarding what Virgin do with their money.
If we all joined with a view to stay just a year, where is the care and commitment to the customer? Some of us want to work up to FSM eventually, but with pay as it stands the airline will just become a revolving door with regards to recruitment. The attitude of everybody being easily replaced does nobody, least not the airline any favours.
With regards to LM's comment regarding we're all pond life, I heard on Galley FM the other day that if we'd accepted the last pay offer, she'd have got a tasty 10k bonus. Only Galley FM - but food for thought regarding what Virgin do with their money.
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Shanwick Shanwick
With a user name like that I think we have a FD member stating his views.
Could you tell us where you get the industry average of £10K a year for a JNR? Waiters in London are paid £20k!!
and by the way we do deserve more money, like you guys did when you pushed and got your pay deal. Thank god most of our pilots are behind us. Maybe you you might want to post your name so we know who to not to look after.
Could you tell us where you get the industry average of £10K a year for a JNR? Waiters in London are paid £20k!!
and by the way we do deserve more money, like you guys did when you pushed and got your pay deal. Thank god most of our pilots are behind us. Maybe you you might want to post your name so we know who to not to look after.
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LM's bonus is closer to £100,000 a year as a director. The joke of it is since she and her Thompson cronys took over, things have gone down hill somewhat.
Who are you Shanwick Shanwick. I would certainly like to meet up with you to discusss this.
Who are you Shanwick Shanwick. I would certainly like to meet up with you to discusss this.
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FAO Shanwick Shanwick
Dont mean to jump down your throat but just wanted to point something out after 13 years with the airline.
Since day one of joining juniors and seniors have always made remarks/complaints at how low the salary was. This has greatly increased in recent years as the cost of living has increased but salaries have not reflected this.
To say "there are thousands willing to take your job" is just plain naive! So lets say that the 92% of crew who voted NO in the last ballot all leave and are replaced by those queing to do our job. Do you honestly believe that after a few months of taking home less than a grand they wont start complaining? This vicious circle has been going on since day one. Great crew leave, great crew join, great crew leave, great crew join......Its only now that we are big enough and powerful enough to have our voice heard. We dont want to leave Virgin and join other airlines or take different jobs, we love the company and want to stay, so why should we feel pushed out?
Virgin will always have this problem with crew unless they bite the bullet and get it sorted. You could say we are doing them a favour
Since day one of joining juniors and seniors have always made remarks/complaints at how low the salary was. This has greatly increased in recent years as the cost of living has increased but salaries have not reflected this.
To say "there are thousands willing to take your job" is just plain naive! So lets say that the 92% of crew who voted NO in the last ballot all leave and are replaced by those queing to do our job. Do you honestly believe that after a few months of taking home less than a grand they wont start complaining? This vicious circle has been going on since day one. Great crew leave, great crew join, great crew leave, great crew join......Its only now that we are big enough and powerful enough to have our voice heard. We dont want to leave Virgin and join other airlines or take different jobs, we love the company and want to stay, so why should we feel pushed out?
Virgin will always have this problem with crew unless they bite the bullet and get it sorted. You could say we are doing them a favour
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I was told by a VS SEP trainer that it costs around £20,000 to hire/train/put us in uniform and get us online.
If this is true then VS need to look at retaining people rather than have a constant circle of people coming and going.
I have been flying with a lot of people recently who are leaving after only doing 6 or so months with the company. It can't be cost effective to have crew stay for such a short time after investing so much.
It must make sense to pay a few thousand more and actually keep people until the company have a return of their investment?
If this is true then VS need to look at retaining people rather than have a constant circle of people coming and going.
I have been flying with a lot of people recently who are leaving after only doing 6 or so months with the company. It can't be cost effective to have crew stay for such a short time after investing so much.
It must make sense to pay a few thousand more and actually keep people until the company have a return of their investment?
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I am honestly coming to the conclusion that Virgin must WANT there to be a high turnover of staff. The high turnover is not just limited to cabin crew, I've seen it in across the airline.
With Cabin Crew, for as long as I can remember, they have been known for paying very little and working their crews quite hard hence there has always been a high turnover. They don't seem to have ever taken any steps to address this, which makes me wonder whether they are earning some sort of tax-break or something.
I know it sounds off the wall but there has to be SOME explanation as to why they are so uncaring.
With Cabin Crew, for as long as I can remember, they have been known for paying very little and working their crews quite hard hence there has always been a high turnover. They don't seem to have ever taken any steps to address this, which makes me wonder whether they are earning some sort of tax-break or something.
I know it sounds off the wall but there has to be SOME explanation as to why they are so uncaring.
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Sadly, I'd agree with that - not just with VS but with all airlines. Older, more experienced crew cost more: sickness tends to increase, productivity to drop (once you've been messed around for a couple of years you tend not to be so supportive and less willing to tolerate more of the same). These aren't my views, but those of airline managers.
There is a never ending pool of naive and inexperienced young people willing to take on the role of CC (see the Emirates/Etihad threads if you don't believe me) for less money than we are being paid and/or for lower terms and conditions. Incredibly, some are so desperate and lacking in sense that they are willing to pay the airline for the priviledge of working for them.
As long as the travelling customer chooses price above all else then the airlines will continue to seek out the cheapest available staff - they have no option, in my view - and, no, I don't like it either!!!
There is a never ending pool of naive and inexperienced young people willing to take on the role of CC (see the Emirates/Etihad threads if you don't believe me) for less money than we are being paid and/or for lower terms and conditions. Incredibly, some are so desperate and lacking in sense that they are willing to pay the airline for the priviledge of working for them.
As long as the travelling customer chooses price above all else then the airlines will continue to seek out the cheapest available staff - they have no option, in my view - and, no, I don't like it either!!!
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WDMM
This is fantastic!
Dear Mr. Boyd
With the on-going pay dispute we thought you might appreciate another perspective of Virgin Atlantic's financial position. We have researched this document using the following sources -
A partner who is the Head of Audit at a large city accountancy firm, with access to specific airline industry data. They helped us produce the UK information and introduced us to the following contacts.
A Senior analyst at a major ratings organisation on Water St, New York. We had an hour long meeting with this gentleman on a recent trip.
We are in email contact with an executive of a financial investigation company based in the British Virgin Islands. The company act on behalf of financial institutions in the BVI and their role is to ensure money entering the banking system there is legitimate. They have considerable knowledge of the Virgin group and their financial activities in the region.
This information was not paid for, but given to us on the back of relationships spanning 10 years. Virgin Atlantic will try to deny the content of this document, but we have been told with some confidence that if you were to get sight of the companys full accounts, specifically the ones that deal with Virgin Nigeria, then your own accountants would be able to verify this information.
Other sources of information were Companies house, The Press association and information given to us by our grounded crew working in other areas of the company. We have tried to simplify the figures and information that we have been given.
How is Virgin Atlantic really doing?
Prior to any wage settlement Virgin has always communicated a negative outlook for the company's financial state. It is therefore not a coincidence that this time; the old line was rattled out to the crew through the usual company communication lines. When we spoke to both the accountants and analysts they made two interesting points.
1. The Virgin group has long been recognised for producing a business model that produces huge levels of revenue, yet is always able to deliver low levels of profit using the most ambiguous and complex methods of accounting. This point in particular seems to be causing Singapore Airlines considerable frustration, to the point where they are considering severing their relationship with us. Quite simply they just don't understand where their share of the money is going.
2. With arguably one of the best route structures and one of the lowest cost bases, then why are we not delivering 7-10% profits? Surely if the companys line on our present financial situation is true, then why have not any of our directors been held accountable. Why are they still receiving their bonuses? No other company would be so forgiving.
So what are the real facts?
Revenues are increasing. 13% increase in last financial year from £1.88b to £2.14b
Increases to revenue through extra charges to customers, credit card charges and the fuel surcharge.
Virgin generates £26-£30m a year in interest from it's UK bank accounts holding £450m in cash.
Passenger numbers are up 10.5% at 5.1m. How often do we see an empty UC seat?
New routes are opening up. Nairobi, Mauritius are the latest
Investment in lounges at LHR £11m. Plus improvements to other destinations
Investment in major buildings. The Base estimates run at £16m +
Substantial new aircraft orders for 15 B787 worth £4 Billion, with options for 20 more
Pledges of £1.6b over the next 10 years for investment in green fuels
We are regularly told about the damage that the cost of oil at $80 a barrel is doing to the company, but they never seem to make mention of the weak dollar and the benefits it has to both our oil/aircraft leasing costs/Increased pax numbers visiting the USA.
A considerable settlement was reached with the pilots union in their last pay negotiations. This now makes them the best paid long haul pilot workforce in the UK based on an hourly rate. BA get more money but have to work more hours.
Virgin Nigeria
Virgin Atlantic made reasonable profits taking out the Virgin Nigeria effect. So could our investment in Virgin Nigeria be seen as a bad decison? We think not.
Can we really own 49% of a company with losses of 50% on £80m revenue?
A good question would be where has the £40m loss gone?
One of the areas the pilot unions originally identified was significant funds generated by Virgin Atlantic yet held outside the normal banking structures. Operting from Nigeria has opened up the opportunity for the company to work within a very relaxed corporate structure, using a beneficial taxation system and a much less stringent accounting method, as a result it is has been easy to withdraw money and write it off as a loss to Virgin Atlantic.
We have ben passed information from the financial investigator in the BVI showing £13.5m being transferred from Virgin Nigeria to accounts held by Virgin in the BVI. The funds held there are described as very significant. We do not think it is a coincidence that SRB has moved from Oxford to the British Virgin Islands.
What do we cost the company?
The crew represent more than 55% of the workforce yet only cost 3% of the total revenue.
The average cost of a Virgin Atlantic crewmember is £12900 across all ranks. The national average for the UK is £22,800. We are based in London where the average salary is £32000. The only place Virgin could find cheaper labour is by recruiting in the Third world, of which it is increasingly doing so (We understand approx 400 Nigerian, Indian, Chinese crew are employed by Virgin). The next time you speak with an Indian crewmember ask them how much they earn and you will quickly learn how Virgin is exploiting cheap labour across the world.
Virgin can afford to invest in us and as we outlined in our recent communication to you, the huge majority of the crew want a 2 year deal, backdated.
We will back the following deal
FSM - £28000/£14000 cost £1.6m
CSS - £22000/£11000 cost £2.1m
SFA/JNR/IFBT - 10% over 2 years - cost £4.1 m
Total increase to salarys is £7.8m.
Increases to trip pay, pensionable from year 1.
When you add in increases to trip pay, pensions and tax, the figure is about £9.5m. This figure is very much in line with recent investments the company has made to other key areas. Or put another way it is substantially cheaper than the £26m it will cost to ground the airline for a three day's.
Good luck Mr Boyd.
WDMM
Dear Mr. Boyd
With the on-going pay dispute we thought you might appreciate another perspective of Virgin Atlantic's financial position. We have researched this document using the following sources -
A partner who is the Head of Audit at a large city accountancy firm, with access to specific airline industry data. They helped us produce the UK information and introduced us to the following contacts.
A Senior analyst at a major ratings organisation on Water St, New York. We had an hour long meeting with this gentleman on a recent trip.
We are in email contact with an executive of a financial investigation company based in the British Virgin Islands. The company act on behalf of financial institutions in the BVI and their role is to ensure money entering the banking system there is legitimate. They have considerable knowledge of the Virgin group and their financial activities in the region.
This information was not paid for, but given to us on the back of relationships spanning 10 years. Virgin Atlantic will try to deny the content of this document, but we have been told with some confidence that if you were to get sight of the companys full accounts, specifically the ones that deal with Virgin Nigeria, then your own accountants would be able to verify this information.
Other sources of information were Companies house, The Press association and information given to us by our grounded crew working in other areas of the company. We have tried to simplify the figures and information that we have been given.
How is Virgin Atlantic really doing?
Prior to any wage settlement Virgin has always communicated a negative outlook for the company's financial state. It is therefore not a coincidence that this time; the old line was rattled out to the crew through the usual company communication lines. When we spoke to both the accountants and analysts they made two interesting points.
1. The Virgin group has long been recognised for producing a business model that produces huge levels of revenue, yet is always able to deliver low levels of profit using the most ambiguous and complex methods of accounting. This point in particular seems to be causing Singapore Airlines considerable frustration, to the point where they are considering severing their relationship with us. Quite simply they just don't understand where their share of the money is going.
2. With arguably one of the best route structures and one of the lowest cost bases, then why are we not delivering 7-10% profits? Surely if the companys line on our present financial situation is true, then why have not any of our directors been held accountable. Why are they still receiving their bonuses? No other company would be so forgiving.
So what are the real facts?
Revenues are increasing. 13% increase in last financial year from £1.88b to £2.14b
Increases to revenue through extra charges to customers, credit card charges and the fuel surcharge.
Virgin generates £26-£30m a year in interest from it's UK bank accounts holding £450m in cash.
Passenger numbers are up 10.5% at 5.1m. How often do we see an empty UC seat?
New routes are opening up. Nairobi, Mauritius are the latest
Investment in lounges at LHR £11m. Plus improvements to other destinations
Investment in major buildings. The Base estimates run at £16m +
Substantial new aircraft orders for 15 B787 worth £4 Billion, with options for 20 more
Pledges of £1.6b over the next 10 years for investment in green fuels
We are regularly told about the damage that the cost of oil at $80 a barrel is doing to the company, but they never seem to make mention of the weak dollar and the benefits it has to both our oil/aircraft leasing costs/Increased pax numbers visiting the USA.
A considerable settlement was reached with the pilots union in their last pay negotiations. This now makes them the best paid long haul pilot workforce in the UK based on an hourly rate. BA get more money but have to work more hours.
Virgin Nigeria
Virgin Atlantic made reasonable profits taking out the Virgin Nigeria effect. So could our investment in Virgin Nigeria be seen as a bad decison? We think not.
Can we really own 49% of a company with losses of 50% on £80m revenue?
A good question would be where has the £40m loss gone?
One of the areas the pilot unions originally identified was significant funds generated by Virgin Atlantic yet held outside the normal banking structures. Operting from Nigeria has opened up the opportunity for the company to work within a very relaxed corporate structure, using a beneficial taxation system and a much less stringent accounting method, as a result it is has been easy to withdraw money and write it off as a loss to Virgin Atlantic.
We have ben passed information from the financial investigator in the BVI showing £13.5m being transferred from Virgin Nigeria to accounts held by Virgin in the BVI. The funds held there are described as very significant. We do not think it is a coincidence that SRB has moved from Oxford to the British Virgin Islands.
What do we cost the company?
The crew represent more than 55% of the workforce yet only cost 3% of the total revenue.
The average cost of a Virgin Atlantic crewmember is £12900 across all ranks. The national average for the UK is £22,800. We are based in London where the average salary is £32000. The only place Virgin could find cheaper labour is by recruiting in the Third world, of which it is increasingly doing so (We understand approx 400 Nigerian, Indian, Chinese crew are employed by Virgin). The next time you speak with an Indian crewmember ask them how much they earn and you will quickly learn how Virgin is exploiting cheap labour across the world.
Virgin can afford to invest in us and as we outlined in our recent communication to you, the huge majority of the crew want a 2 year deal, backdated.
We will back the following deal
FSM - £28000/£14000 cost £1.6m
CSS - £22000/£11000 cost £2.1m
SFA/JNR/IFBT - 10% over 2 years - cost £4.1 m
Total increase to salarys is £7.8m.
Increases to trip pay, pensionable from year 1.
When you add in increases to trip pay, pensions and tax, the figure is about £9.5m. This figure is very much in line with recent investments the company has made to other key areas. Or put another way it is substantially cheaper than the £26m it will cost to ground the airline for a three day's.
Good luck Mr Boyd.
WDMM
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I am sure your training will have some form of tax advantage and possibly some government incentive or kickback. It will not cost the company £20k. If the training cost is reduced, I am sure the company would rather have a high turnover of staff. Historically, newbies cost less, a large majority have a short term aim and do not necessarily see the job as a long term career, do not join the union as it is £8ish a month and are easier to push around.
As for the spending on the clubhouse and the 787 - The company have to invest in new aircraft and decent lounges to attract the premium business that pays our wages. We would lose the higher paying passenger if all we offered was instant coffee and a ride on a rickety old 747 classic that spent most of its time in the hangar. With the price of fuel, 4 engines is no longer the way ahead. To survive things have to change.
The weak dollar works both ways. It may be cheaper to shop in Abercrombie in the states if you are flying from the UK. However, equally if an American wants to have scones in York, the weak dollar makes it more expensive for the return business. In addition, due to the lack of a welcome and the premise of we are all terrorists until proven otherwise, I am sure that the overall number of holiday makers visiting the states is down.
I believe that you deserve a pay rise but again you are clouding it with a seperate issue. Hold out for what you believe you are worth - the fact that the company is investing in facilities and aircraft to remain competitive is irrelevant.
As for the spending on the clubhouse and the 787 - The company have to invest in new aircraft and decent lounges to attract the premium business that pays our wages. We would lose the higher paying passenger if all we offered was instant coffee and a ride on a rickety old 747 classic that spent most of its time in the hangar. With the price of fuel, 4 engines is no longer the way ahead. To survive things have to change.
The weak dollar works both ways. It may be cheaper to shop in Abercrombie in the states if you are flying from the UK. However, equally if an American wants to have scones in York, the weak dollar makes it more expensive for the return business. In addition, due to the lack of a welcome and the premise of we are all terrorists until proven otherwise, I am sure that the overall number of holiday makers visiting the states is down.
I believe that you deserve a pay rise but again you are clouding it with a seperate issue. Hold out for what you believe you are worth - the fact that the company is investing in facilities and aircraft to remain competitive is irrelevant.