Virgin - Crew Discussions II
well said sign-it...
my views on this are already a few pages back but just to reiterate (and probably repeat the above post) you will do untold damage not only to the airline/profits but think about what the ground based staff's opinion and support for your cases will be like in the event of strike action.
However, was it wise of the company to imply the new deal was sealed a few weeks back on the intranet when we are now faced with this situation?And is continued investment in Virgin Nigeria ever going to reap any rewards or will it continue to be a money pit?£41.8million I believe last year,makes the payrise situation a little hard to swallow in my opinion but I guess theres little us ground dwellers can do about it.
my views on this are already a few pages back but just to reiterate (and probably repeat the above post) you will do untold damage not only to the airline/profits but think about what the ground based staff's opinion and support for your cases will be like in the event of strike action.
However, was it wise of the company to imply the new deal was sealed a few weeks back on the intranet when we are now faced with this situation?And is continued investment in Virgin Nigeria ever going to reap any rewards or will it continue to be a money pit?£41.8million I believe last year,makes the payrise situation a little hard to swallow in my opinion but I guess theres little us ground dwellers can do about it.
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Yes I totally agree that sticking together makes us stronger and voting to industrial action would do this, but some crew are just shouting STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE like its the easiest thing in the world. I'm not sure from the texts and emails that I have recieved that many crew actually understand the ins and out of what strike action is all about. Speaking on a flight this week, I was astounded to learn that almost half of my crew didnt know that industrial action is UNPAID. When they heard that they would be missing 1-2 days pay, they looked a little lost.
Will be interesting to hear next proposal.
Will be interesting to hear next proposal.
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As usual in these situations there is a few that shout louder than others. Certainly when I've spoken to a few CC lately they didn't seem to understand the situation. Spoke to one last week who said she only voted no because she was told to. She couldn't even explain anything of the last proposal that she had just rejected, but just did as someone told her. 
I don't think you will get anywhere soon on route allowances (as has been suggested) either as don't these have to be approved by the Inland Revenue, which no doubt takes an age?
I don't think you will get anywhere soon on route allowances (as has been suggested) either as don't these have to be approved by the Inland Revenue, which no doubt takes an age?
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Strike...
Despite the fact I will be voting YES to industrial action I do hope things do not go that far and that an amicable agreement is reached!
With regards to our allowances - the Inland Revenue do not specify that our allowances have to be paid in this way. We can be paid hourly rates or nightly rates, the tax taken from these will be different although this is a lower rate than the normal earnings. 33% of your allowance is taxed and the remaining 67% remains untaxed. Virgin chooses to pay our allowance in this manner and the IR does not tax them as they are considered for use downroute only. The fact is most of us are so poor we have to bring them home and fraudulently spend them here. It is potentially more economically viable for us to be paid like other airlines who receive hourly/nightly rates.
Our conditions are good at VS I we cannot complain now VSwap and in action... although I am still too poor to use my concessions.
We MUST continue to stick with our votes and hope that the company takes any realistic suggestions on-board and we reach an agreement. If we don't we will loose our entire deal!!!!
This part of our "pay package", as I'm sure you know, are subsistence allowances. It is for food and drink whist downroute, and is based on the prices in the hotel we stay at. Obviously the menu is cheaper in LAS than ORD. This is non negotiable, and has to be approved by the Inland Revenue in the UK. That said, the IR are currently looking again at how these allowances are paid to every airline in the UK!!
Our conditions are good at VS I we cannot complain now VSwap and in action... although I am still too poor to use my concessions.
We MUST continue to stick with our votes and hope that the company takes any realistic suggestions on-board and we reach an agreement. If we don't we will loose our entire deal!!!!
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Not sure if it has been posted? But is everyone aware that CSS AND FSM interviews have all been cancelled (sorry if I am the barer of bad news?!) I know there were lots of people recently invited!
The reason is of course due to the ongoing pay dispute. It seems the management are playing dirty!
The reason is of course due to the ongoing pay dispute. It seems the management are playing dirty!
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One only has to read this article to see that there is a world of creative accounting going on and that the company has invested heavily in itself thus reducing its bottom line profit (tax liability).
http://allafrica.com/stories/200708210290.html
In summary from article;
The airline announced that new routes and growth in fleet were attributable to its record sales, adding that its core sales increased by 13 per cent from £1.88billion the previous year, to £2.14billion.
The number of passengers increased by 10.5 per cent, to 5.1 million, as Virgin Atlantic expanded the number of destinations it serves around the world
Pre-tax profits for Virgin Atlantic and its leading tour operator Virgin Holidays, excluding Virgin Nigeria Airways, were £46.8 million following a major investment programme in products including the Upper Class Suite, the new Premium Economy cabin, new route infrastructure, and the new London Heathrow Clubhouse
Sir Richard Branson, President of Virgin Atlantic, commented: "The last financial year has seen Virgin Atlantic continue to strengthen the value of its busines through investment in people, new aircraft, new routes
Substantial investment continued to help th expansion of Virgin Nigeria Airways, the start-up private sector flag carrier for Nigerian which Virgin Atlantic has a 49% stake. Losses at thecarrier were £40.8million but sales increased sharply, from £24million to £83.6million.
As stated above, everything increased excpet profit - of course it did spending programme is huge.
http://allafrica.com/stories/200708210290.html
In summary from article;
The airline announced that new routes and growth in fleet were attributable to its record sales, adding that its core sales increased by 13 per cent from £1.88billion the previous year, to £2.14billion.
The number of passengers increased by 10.5 per cent, to 5.1 million, as Virgin Atlantic expanded the number of destinations it serves around the world
Pre-tax profits for Virgin Atlantic and its leading tour operator Virgin Holidays, excluding Virgin Nigeria Airways, were £46.8 million following a major investment programme in products including the Upper Class Suite, the new Premium Economy cabin, new route infrastructure, and the new London Heathrow Clubhouse
Sir Richard Branson, President of Virgin Atlantic, commented: "The last financial year has seen Virgin Atlantic continue to strengthen the value of its busines through investment in people, new aircraft, new routes
Substantial investment continued to help th expansion of Virgin Nigeria Airways, the start-up private sector flag carrier for Nigerian which Virgin Atlantic has a 49% stake. Losses at thecarrier were £40.8million but sales increased sharply, from £24million to £83.6million.
As stated above, everything increased excpet profit - of course it did spending programme is huge.
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Playing dirty? Are you for real?
Of course the company are cancelling promotional courses. Why on earth would they promote people, pay higher salaries, invest in training and career development, when they are faced with industrial action which is set to lose millions of revenue. Even if strike action is avoided, the negative impact on the company and its customers from the mere talk of a strike is enormous. Yet again another example of me, me, me - why are the company doing this to us!!!??? VAA is doing what any business with an iota of sense would do.
And I have to agree with the previous comments about people shouting for strike action - they are whipping up a public feeling of discord, which to a large extent is not there. Yes the crew want more money and better conditions, and I am quite sure that will be negotiated prior to industrial action. Yelling about strike action is immature, unprofessional, and premature. Perhaps those calling for it do not have the capabilites to have rational discussion. I would also question their committment to their colleagues, who in all reality could face redundancies if the industrial action goes ahead.
This is a game to some degree - every company holds its cards close to their chest - of course VAA were not going to give us everythng we wanted straight away. I can however bet they are less likely to have faith in is as crew when all they hear is the ill-informed calling for strike action with little or no concept ot the implications.
Of course the company are cancelling promotional courses. Why on earth would they promote people, pay higher salaries, invest in training and career development, when they are faced with industrial action which is set to lose millions of revenue. Even if strike action is avoided, the negative impact on the company and its customers from the mere talk of a strike is enormous. Yet again another example of me, me, me - why are the company doing this to us!!!??? VAA is doing what any business with an iota of sense would do.
And I have to agree with the previous comments about people shouting for strike action - they are whipping up a public feeling of discord, which to a large extent is not there. Yes the crew want more money and better conditions, and I am quite sure that will be negotiated prior to industrial action. Yelling about strike action is immature, unprofessional, and premature. Perhaps those calling for it do not have the capabilites to have rational discussion. I would also question their committment to their colleagues, who in all reality could face redundancies if the industrial action goes ahead.
This is a game to some degree - every company holds its cards close to their chest - of course VAA were not going to give us everythng we wanted straight away. I can however bet they are less likely to have faith in is as crew when all they hear is the ill-informed calling for strike action with little or no concept ot the implications.
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I certainly dont want to strike but unfortunatley it seems to be the only language our Management speaks. All we are to the current management are a financial outgoing which needs to be as efficient as possible.
Is it possible we could have had initially just the rate of inflation and No changes to our terms and conditions? Perhaps if an extra standby month could have been acceptable with a futher pay rise? Saving all this negative press. I think that would have been fair. I think the whole issue has been handled very badly. It just makes VS look now like any other corperation with an unhappy workload.
Is it possible we could have had initially just the rate of inflation and No changes to our terms and conditions? Perhaps if an extra standby month could have been acceptable with a futher pay rise? Saving all this negative press. I think that would have been fair. I think the whole issue has been handled very badly. It just makes VS look now like any other corperation with an unhappy workload.
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What would you vote yes to?
Here is what I would vote yes to.
4% increase on basic with immediate effect.
Extra Stand by month
No protected weekend off in sby month
Lose the 4 hour call out.
Salary review of current RPI over next 3 years.
I dont really care about the SBY month (even though I have 2 children), with facilities such as the Crew Service centre it doesnt have to be stressful.
So I lose my weekend in my SBY month. Again, who cares? I get to request trips/days off throughout the year which other carriers dont have and also have VSwap at my disposal.
Have never used the 4 hour call out facility, always make my flioghts as I want to fly and stay close by.
I'd like my airshare to remain intact as this gives me a great incentive and the cm on the 600 is an absolute MUST. We wont suffer but our pax will!
4% increase on basic with immediate effect.
Extra Stand by month
No protected weekend off in sby month
Lose the 4 hour call out.
Salary review of current RPI over next 3 years.
I dont really care about the SBY month (even though I have 2 children), with facilities such as the Crew Service centre it doesnt have to be stressful.
So I lose my weekend in my SBY month. Again, who cares? I get to request trips/days off throughout the year which other carriers dont have and also have VSwap at my disposal.
Have never used the 4 hour call out facility, always make my flioghts as I want to fly and stay close by.
I'd like my airshare to remain intact as this gives me a great incentive and the cm on the 600 is an absolute MUST. We wont suffer but our pax will!
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Possibilty of a yes vote from me:
4.8% immediate base pay increase (backdated to expiry date of previous pay deal)
Trip pay £50
RPI increase over remaining term of agreement
No decrease in crew members on any aircraft
No loss of weekend off during standby
No extra month of standby - although this doesn't really affect me I know standby is really difficult for some of my collegues
4hr call out doesn't really affect me as I live close to base
4.8% immediate base pay increase (backdated to expiry date of previous pay deal)
Trip pay £50
RPI increase over remaining term of agreement
No decrease in crew members on any aircraft
No loss of weekend off during standby
No extra month of standby - although this doesn't really affect me I know standby is really difficult for some of my collegues
4hr call out doesn't really affect me as I live close to base
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Following on from Sign It
RPI increase (based on the entire financial year 2006/2007 around 4%) and backdated to April.
Annual salary increase based on RPI average for the entire year.
No additional conditions or removal of anything.
That's it. Nice and simple.
Any additional conditions or removals require a further payrise.
Airshare Removal - 5%
Extra Standby - 2%
Removal of Weekend Off - 0.5%
Removal of crew from 600 - Additional payment of £10 per 600 trip.
It would be really great if the company could put some kind of voting thing on iFly. just like they have for crew food. That way they could see exactly what crew are looking for. For example crew ranking the order of importance for what they feel effects their lives the most. Increased basic, Increased sector pay, more/less standby months, weekends off, etc etc
RPI increase (based on the entire financial year 2006/2007 around 4%) and backdated to April.
Annual salary increase based on RPI average for the entire year.
No additional conditions or removal of anything.
That's it. Nice and simple.
Any additional conditions or removals require a further payrise.
Airshare Removal - 5%
Extra Standby - 2%
Removal of Weekend Off - 0.5%
Removal of crew from 600 - Additional payment of £10 per 600 trip.
It would be really great if the company could put some kind of voting thing on iFly. just like they have for crew food. That way they could see exactly what crew are looking for. For example crew ranking the order of importance for what they feel effects their lives the most. Increased basic, Increased sector pay, more/less standby months, weekends off, etc etc
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Im right with you sign it, the only reason I didnt vote this time(yes im sorry but i was really on the fence with this one and i didnt want to submit a half hearted vote) was because I was torn by losing the ccm etc. The actual pay deal was not brilliant but a realistic offer I think. Lets not forget we are very lucky to have Crew Service Centre, No other airline offers anything like it and it does make stby month easier.
The trouble is we are in the type of occupation where stby is a must so when crew complain that its so difficult for them to do as they commute etc, well it doesnt quite cut it. Unfortunately its the nature of the job.
The trouble is we are in the type of occupation where stby is a must so when crew complain that its so difficult for them to do as they commute etc, well it doesnt quite cut it. Unfortunately its the nature of the job.
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Something similar to below, also now is a good time to review any issues that are outstanding or not being actioned.
- Sensible increase for basic salary (4-7%) effective immediate and backdated to last deal expiry.
- No additional Standby
- No loss of standby weekend
- Shorter pay deal e.g. 1-2 years. not 3 - a lot will change with virgin becoming a public limited company
- Sensible Trip pay increase
- More reward for senior crew (be it increase in basic or trip pay) to promote staying with and advancement within the company.
- A review of variable manning
- No permanent removal of crew on any A/C
- Inlight of current "staff shortages" Pre-ops and vswap to be available 24/7 and any swaps actioned within a set time period - contractual not a perk
- Review of airshare or similar incentive (in an upward fashion, not downwards)
- Introduction of a reward system for crews waiting for rooms down route to discourage cheaper hot bedding contracts in hotels.
- Increase of crew down payments as a deterrent to the company to employee sufficient crew numbers (perhaps an audit by union to confirm how many short the company is - if it is)
- Bring in a 3rd party negotiator to carryout an audit within the company and create an action plan on how to reduce staff sickness and increase staff productivity. The internet is full of success stories of companies who have done just that and invested in their staff, the outcome higher retention levels, more productivity/turnover and increased job satisfaction, less sickness . All in all a great thing for the customer.
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Following on from sign it to your room.
I agree whole heartedly with you.
I have said from the start of these discussions that a decent pay increase is needed ie 4.8% plus some increase on trip pay. We are very lucky in some respects in virgin ie crew service centre, vswap, etc.
As a commuter standby is quite difficult and expensive for me and many others but if it is needed by the company than so be it, after all compromise is the key here. I chose to live where i live after all. So in terms of what would i prepared to give up, standby would be would be my choice, i would give up the fight to lose it. If that makes sense. It seems the strike mongers are only a minority and the majority of crew want this resolved but we are not prepared to be walked all over . I also think the pay deal because of the games played between Mr Bollocks Boyd and virgin needs def to be back dated to april. There has been so many managers and union reps around check in , supposedly listening to what as a crew we want yet, none of the deals offered have represented our thoughts. I just would like to ask our other departments to bear with us , as i know if they were in the same situation we as crew would support them
I agree whole heartedly with you.
I have said from the start of these discussions that a decent pay increase is needed ie 4.8% plus some increase on trip pay. We are very lucky in some respects in virgin ie crew service centre, vswap, etc.
As a commuter standby is quite difficult and expensive for me and many others but if it is needed by the company than so be it, after all compromise is the key here. I chose to live where i live after all. So in terms of what would i prepared to give up, standby would be would be my choice, i would give up the fight to lose it. If that makes sense. It seems the strike mongers are only a minority and the majority of crew want this resolved but we are not prepared to be walked all over . I also think the pay deal because of the games played between Mr Bollocks Boyd and virgin needs def to be back dated to april. There has been so many managers and union reps around check in , supposedly listening to what as a crew we want yet, none of the deals offered have represented our thoughts. I just would like to ask our other departments to bear with us , as i know if they were in the same situation we as crew would support them
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As I was typing the post above I was thinking the very same. The problem with each offer to date has been, in short - in order to get a payrise that is in line with inflation the crew have been presented with a long list of items that they have to give up in order to finance the payrise.
Personally I do not think this is fair. However if it was for increased benefits and other items then there could be room for negotiation - e.g. the standby. However for a payrise which only meets/sustains the cost of living (RPI) the net outcome would be, "In order to be in the same financial condition as I was last year, I have had to reduce the terms of my contract". How would you feel about that ? - It boils my blood
I note from your previous response you are flight crew, may I be so bold as to ask of the numerous offers that you all rejected how much did you all give up for your offer ? - That's a genuine question, I'm not being arsey or anything however I cant imagine the net cost was at your expense but at the companies ?? (I could be wrong though -no offence intended).
To date the cost to the company of every offer would have been absorbed by taking something from the crew - I very much feel the company needs to "invest" in the crew, not take with one hand and the other.
Best Regards
As I was typing the post above I was thinking the very same. The problem with each offer to date has been, in short - in order to get a payrise that is in line with inflation the crew have been presented with a long list of items that they have to give up in order to finance the payrise.
Personally I do not think this is fair. However if it was for increased benefits and other items then there could be room for negotiation - e.g. the standby. However for a payrise which only meets/sustains the cost of living (RPI) the net outcome would be, "In order to be in the same financial condition as I was last year, I have had to reduce the terms of my contract". How would you feel about that ? - It boils my blood
I note from your previous response you are flight crew, may I be so bold as to ask of the numerous offers that you all rejected how much did you all give up for your offer ? - That's a genuine question, I'm not being arsey or anything
however I cant imagine the net cost was at your expense but at the companies ?? (I could be wrong though -no offence intended).To date the cost to the company of every offer would have been absorbed by taking something from the crew - I very much feel the company needs to "invest" in the crew, not take with one hand and the other.
Best Regards
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Hi scoobydooo,
We had 2 separate pay deals, and some things we negotiated in the first we had to give up in the second, to get a deal. Some of them were only pertinent to our contract and aren't common between the 2 groups of employees, amongst them were:
- Airshare
- To start monthly standby and subsequently lose the guaranteed weekend off
- Vastly reduced day off payments
- The ability for the co. to change some trips and not pay day off payments
- Dispense with restrictions on monthly rostered hours
- Lose the guaranteed fourth crew member on HKG flights
- No buffer days around leave (never set in stone, but definitely gone now)
- Transfer of pension to another scheme that saved the co. money
There are probably others, but those are the ones off the top of my head.
I believe you deserve more. The main point of my first post was to allow informed comparison between other carriers termsand conditions. Good luck guys.
We had 2 separate pay deals, and some things we negotiated in the first we had to give up in the second, to get a deal. Some of them were only pertinent to our contract and aren't common between the 2 groups of employees, amongst them were:
- Airshare
- To start monthly standby and subsequently lose the guaranteed weekend off
- Vastly reduced day off payments
- The ability for the co. to change some trips and not pay day off payments
- Dispense with restrictions on monthly rostered hours
- Lose the guaranteed fourth crew member on HKG flights
- No buffer days around leave (never set in stone, but definitely gone now)
- Transfer of pension to another scheme that saved the co. money
There are probably others, but those are the ones off the top of my head.
I believe you deserve more. The main point of my first post was to allow informed comparison between other carriers termsand conditions. Good luck guys.
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i believe that a 4.8% increase yr1 followed by yr2 and yr3 at rpi is the MINIMUM which would be acceptable.
i've been with va 18 yrs and every year i've been waiting for acceptable wage increases.
A point not raised in this dicussion is perhaps VA has only made money in the past on the back of low wages.A decent increase would perhaps lead to a restructuring of the airline.(i find it incredible to hear BA is set to post 10% profit even after strike action and a fine to take care of.)Many other airlines are posting good figures as well.Why not us? We could be much leaner and pay proper wages.Tesco's make redundencies every 2 years to keep them ahead of the competition yet post good results each year.
i've been with va 18 yrs and every year i've been waiting for acceptable wage increases.
A point not raised in this dicussion is perhaps VA has only made money in the past on the back of low wages.A decent increase would perhaps lead to a restructuring of the airline.(i find it incredible to hear BA is set to post 10% profit even after strike action and a fine to take care of.)Many other airlines are posting good figures as well.Why not us? We could be much leaner and pay proper wages.Tesco's make redundencies every 2 years to keep them ahead of the competition yet post good results each year.
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- Inlight of current "staff shortages" Pre-ops and vswap to be available 24/7 and any swaps actioned within a set time period - contractual not a perk (as posted by Scoobydoo).
I see it as a major perk. For my first decade at VA we had nothing like pre-ops or the CSC (depts that cost the airline money and that were put in place to reduce crew absence). So if we offer our crew a good pay deal then surely it should remain as a perk?