Virgin - Crew Discussions II
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Their insulting offers mean I am looking for more now.
What you're saying in short "sign-it-too-your-room" is the pay rise without any strings attached (dont forget the not backdating to April). Or rather the pay maintenance to keep in constant - in line with inflation.
I think that every time the company places an insulting offer, it just means that our requirements should get more and more. They could off nipped this in the bud with their last offer with no strings. But now I am thinking we have the unity now to really go for the kill, a killer of a deal - It has taken this long to get here.
But there's a part of me that says, NO !... for messing me about as you have done so far I now want more ! - I am no longer happy with just a pay maintenance (RPI) I want a pay maintenance PLUS a pay increase. so 10% in the first year and RPI for the next 2 years. That's not much its only a circa 5.1% increase (I mean real increase after the cost of living has gone up- RPI circa 4.9).... Or maybe I want hourly duty pay when away ontop of trip pay- like some of the other airlines do to make up for the poor basic and the delays.
Anyone else feel like this ? or is it just me who is now looking for more than I would have initially been content with -
The cabin crew just got stronger !
p.s. other departments all deserve more too - get unionised ! (if such a word exists)
I think that every time the company places an insulting offer, it just means that our requirements should get more and more. They could off nipped this in the bud with their last offer with no strings. But now I am thinking we have the unity now to really go for the kill, a killer of a deal - It has taken this long to get here.
But there's a part of me that says, NO !... for messing me about as you have done so far I now want more ! - I am no longer happy with just a pay maintenance (RPI) I want a pay maintenance PLUS a pay increase. so 10% in the first year and RPI for the next 2 years. That's not much its only a circa 5.1% increase (I mean real increase after the cost of living has gone up- RPI circa 4.9).... Or maybe I want hourly duty pay when away ontop of trip pay- like some of the other airlines do to make up for the poor basic and the delays.
Anyone else feel like this ? or is it just me who is now looking for more than I would have initially been content with -
The cabin crew just got stronger !
p.s. other departments all deserve more too - get unionised ! (if such a word exists)
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Hi ya, does anyone know when it comes to ballot action for strike does the percentage of the vote have to be more than the 92% or is it still the majority !!!!! does that make sense ?
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Quote; "We are all a team, and it is terrible that our colleagues in other departments aren't unionised. I don't understand why that is."
Probably because not all of us feel the need to have some faceless rep representing us and coming up with deals that haven't consulted us individually on. Personally if any company does not pay me the going rate........I'll leave. No matter what deal the union comes up with in negotiation it isn't going to please everybody.
Can't really comment on your levels of pay as I don't keep an eye on CC pay around the industry. There has been a few comments about route allowances though and having seen the new scales I'd say your doing rather well. Most places seem to be around the GBP100 - 120p/n. This is considerably more than the rest of us get when travelling on company business. I cannot believe that you cannot survive an overnight stop on that level of expenses, which of course is meant for meals and small out of pocket expenses only.
Probably because not all of us feel the need to have some faceless rep representing us and coming up with deals that haven't consulted us individually on. Personally if any company does not pay me the going rate........I'll leave. No matter what deal the union comes up with in negotiation it isn't going to please everybody.
Can't really comment on your levels of pay as I don't keep an eye on CC pay around the industry. There has been a few comments about route allowances though and having seen the new scales I'd say your doing rather well. Most places seem to be around the GBP100 - 120p/n. This is considerably more than the rest of us get when travelling on company business. I cannot believe that you cannot survive an overnight stop on that level of expenses, which of course is meant for meals and small out of pocket expenses only.
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Allowances etc.
TS - I think the highest allowance issued is £90p/n so once we have purchased meals and out of pockets expenses and then converted the US$ back to UK£ there is very little to actually bring back with us to help with mortgages etc. Although out allowances might be a bit more than most when on company business I know that their basic salary will also be much higher.
You also have to remember that the allowances are not considered by banks when we go to get a mortgage so trying to get a mortgage on £11,500 basic is laughable when we have to be based at the most 2hr from London in order to get into work whilst on standby. These allowances are also not pensionable so come 65 most crew (who want to make a career out of flying) will have a very small pension to survive on.
If you look at Qantas London base they are clearing over £1500 p/m, easyjet over £1600 p/m, B.A.quite often over £2000 p/m. Air New Zealand stay at the same hotel as Virgin crew in LAX and get nearly US$100 more for the same amount of time at the hotel. Maybe Kiwi's eat more or something??
At Virgin I am only clearing around £1200 made up of basic, allowances and sector pay.
What we need is a big increase in basic pay and sector pay. I will definately be voting yes for strike action (as it will give the company a big kick up the a*se) and no to any pay deal that doesn't put us in line with the other majors. And I will vote no to any deal that has conditions attached such as removal of crew, loss of airshare etc.
No doubt the next offer will be the same with one of the conditions removed. They will try and drag this on for as long as possible. The pilots had 13 ballots I believe before they got what they wanted.
If we stick together too we can achieve a positive outcome.
You also have to remember that the allowances are not considered by banks when we go to get a mortgage so trying to get a mortgage on £11,500 basic is laughable when we have to be based at the most 2hr from London in order to get into work whilst on standby. These allowances are also not pensionable so come 65 most crew (who want to make a career out of flying) will have a very small pension to survive on.
If you look at Qantas London base they are clearing over £1500 p/m, easyjet over £1600 p/m, B.A.quite often over £2000 p/m. Air New Zealand stay at the same hotel as Virgin crew in LAX and get nearly US$100 more for the same amount of time at the hotel. Maybe Kiwi's eat more or something??
At Virgin I am only clearing around £1200 made up of basic, allowances and sector pay.
What we need is a big increase in basic pay and sector pay. I will definately be voting yes for strike action (as it will give the company a big kick up the a*se) and no to any pay deal that doesn't put us in line with the other majors. And I will vote no to any deal that has conditions attached such as removal of crew, loss of airshare etc.
No doubt the next offer will be the same with one of the conditions removed. They will try and drag this on for as long as possible. The pilots had 13 ballots I believe before they got what they wanted.
If we stick together too we can achieve a positive outcome.
Last edited by back2front; 1st Sep 2007 at 12:53.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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And you echo every crew member that I have spoken to so far. We always have a chat on board and I try to gauge the general census of how people feel; what you have just said sums it up perfectly. I can really see a strike happening which is quite sad, not from a crew point of view but from a management point if view.
Join Date: Sep 2007
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PAY
I am so glad that so many people are in support of us guys sticking together in these current pay negotiations. It is embarassing to compare our VS pay with other airlines doing the same job. I hope it doesn't end in strike but if the company do not give us a fair deal that we can survive on it looks very likely!
Lots of people say why did we take the job if we knew the pay?
It is not made clear at interview that our pay will never increase within our rank even after years of service unless we take promotion.
Also all trips should be paid equally... A 2 night LAS is not even worth getting out of bed for whereas a 1 night ORD is fantastic money. Surely we should be paid for how long we are away, sector length and it should be in our banks at home so we can actually get a mortgage!
TO ALL CREW OUT THERE: Vote NO NO NO until we get an acceptable and reasonable offer!!!
Lots of people say why did we take the job if we knew the pay?
It is not made clear at interview that our pay will never increase within our rank even after years of service unless we take promotion.
Also all trips should be paid equally... A 2 night LAS is not even worth getting out of bed for whereas a 1 night ORD is fantastic money. Surely we should be paid for how long we are away, sector length and it should be in our banks at home so we can actually get a mortgage!
TO ALL CREW OUT THERE: Vote NO NO NO until we get an acceptable and reasonable offer!!!
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Just discovered this on amicus website!
Virgin cabin crew reject pay deal
31 August 2007
In a consultative ballot, over 2000 members of the Virgin Atlantic cabin crew have overwhelmingly rejected Virgin's latest pay offer.
92% of the staff rejected the deal and Unite is now preparing to hold a strike ballot. Unite will be meeting with Virgin Atlantic management next week in an attempt to resolve the outstanding issue of pay and staffing.
Unite National Officer, Brian Boyd says, "Unite is now preparing to ballot its members on industrial action at Virgin Atlantic. The company's latest offer still falls short of our members aspirations and they have sent a clear message to the company that they are prepared to act. Unite will be working tirelessly on behalf of its members to reach an acceptable conclusion.”
31 August 2007
In a consultative ballot, over 2000 members of the Virgin Atlantic cabin crew have overwhelmingly rejected Virgin's latest pay offer.
92% of the staff rejected the deal and Unite is now preparing to hold a strike ballot. Unite will be meeting with Virgin Atlantic management next week in an attempt to resolve the outstanding issue of pay and staffing.
Unite National Officer, Brian Boyd says, "Unite is now preparing to ballot its members on industrial action at Virgin Atlantic. The company's latest offer still falls short of our members aspirations and they have sent a clear message to the company that they are prepared to act. Unite will be working tirelessly on behalf of its members to reach an acceptable conclusion.”
Join Date: Jul 2007
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The Managers are out in Force!!!
Hi All,
It has taken 3 rejected Pay Offers and only now have the management taken notice. Is it just me that thinks this has been a MASSIVE WAKE UP CALL TO VIRGIN???!
I agree with the previous posts in that the next offer will probably be the 4.8% without the strings attached although I don't think they are going to budge on the standby or guaranteed weekend off. I also think they might do something with the trip pay, ie instead of 15% increase in year 2, they will split it, so half now and half next year.
I think we are in a stronger position than ever and we must stay united. WE MUST VOTE YES TO STRIKE ACTION OTHERWISE WE WILL LOSE EVERYTHING WE HAVE GAINED SO FAR.
VOTE FOR STRIKE ACTION AND URGE YOUR COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.
It has taken 3 rejected Pay Offers and only now have the management taken notice. Is it just me that thinks this has been a MASSIVE WAKE UP CALL TO VIRGIN???!
I agree with the previous posts in that the next offer will probably be the 4.8% without the strings attached although I don't think they are going to budge on the standby or guaranteed weekend off. I also think they might do something with the trip pay, ie instead of 15% increase in year 2, they will split it, so half now and half next year.
I think we are in a stronger position than ever and we must stay united. WE MUST VOTE YES TO STRIKE ACTION OTHERWISE WE WILL LOSE EVERYTHING WE HAVE GAINED SO FAR.
VOTE FOR STRIKE ACTION AND URGE YOUR COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.
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A pilots perspective
Hi guys,
First off, I do think you deserve more money, and the deals on the table thus far, I believe, have been testing the waters. Bear in mind these are pay negotiations not pay demands.
Having read all the posts, there are a lot of inaccuracies, particularly with regard to the pilot work force pay deals over the last few years. We gave away many parts of our original contract to get to where we are. It has to be a game of give and take. Take time to talk to the guys on a flight or whilst downroute, most of us are behind you.
back2front:
You need to compare apples with apples. Speaking to a colleague downroute the other day, he mentioned he had several C/C friends in BA. Their package is different to yours in many ways. For instance they don't get private healthcare, LHR longhaul C/C can request only 2 trips a year, (& can't swap trips) and their concessions are extremely limited compared to ours - that are perhaps the best in the industry.
747jumboboi:
This part of our "pay package", as I'm sure you know, are subsistence allowances. It is for food and drink whist downroute, and is based on the prices in the hotel we stay at. Obviously the menu is cheaper in LAS than ORD. This is non negotiable, and has to be approved by the Inland Revenue in the UK. That said, the IR are currently looking again at how these allowances are paid to every airline in the UK!!
As difficult as it is, try not to get too emotional, and bide your time. The strike vote will have management on the back foot now. Good luck
PS. jbflyer can we dispense with the large type face and capitals/underlining?
First off, I do think you deserve more money, and the deals on the table thus far, I believe, have been testing the waters. Bear in mind these are pay negotiations not pay demands.
Having read all the posts, there are a lot of inaccuracies, particularly with regard to the pilot work force pay deals over the last few years. We gave away many parts of our original contract to get to where we are. It has to be a game of give and take. Take time to talk to the guys on a flight or whilst downroute, most of us are behind you.
back2front:
If you look at Qantas London base they are clearing over £1500 p/m, easyjet over £1600 p/m, B.A.quite often over £2000 p/m.
747jumboboi:
Also all trips should be paid equally... A 2 night LAS is not even worth getting out of bed for whereas a 1 night ORD is fantastic money.
As difficult as it is, try not to get too emotional, and bide your time. The strike vote will have management on the back foot now. Good luck
PS. jbflyer can we dispense with the large type face and capitals/underlining?
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Tags, thank you for your support the FD I have just flown with were brilliant. It makes such a difference to know you are all behind us.
I just hope our union reps and especially Brian Boyd are behind us to the same extent, as I am sure we will need to show a great deal of nerve and be prepared to vote yes to strike and be prepared to carry out the outcome. I am worried speaking to one rep that Boyd is a mavrick!
I just hope our union reps and especially Brian Boyd are behind us to the same extent, as I am sure we will need to show a great deal of nerve and be prepared to vote yes to strike and be prepared to carry out the outcome. I am worried speaking to one rep that Boyd is a mavrick!
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Anyone been on Strike before?
Dear Mr Boyd,
I am all for a strike, but can we please make sure it's on a day when I'm not flying to LOS or NBO!!! Really not liking the idea of being stuck out there! My preferences would be SFO, MBJ or ANU, but would be willing to settle for a EWR or ORD. I'll email you my roster. Thanks, IJWTF
Has anyone ever been on strike before at their previous airline? What actually happened, and how did it all eventuate?
Eg. If a strike is planned for the 20th. And I fly to NBO on the 19th, obviously there would be no flight operating LHR-NBO on the 20th, so I would therefore be stuck in NBO... Does that make sense?
Any info from crew who have gone on strike before would be greatly appreciated....
This is my 200th post... Woo Hoo!
I am all for a strike, but can we please make sure it's on a day when I'm not flying to LOS or NBO!!! Really not liking the idea of being stuck out there! My preferences would be SFO, MBJ or ANU, but would be willing to settle for a EWR or ORD. I'll email you my roster. Thanks, IJWTF
Has anyone ever been on strike before at their previous airline? What actually happened, and how did it all eventuate?
Eg. If a strike is planned for the 20th. And I fly to NBO on the 19th, obviously there would be no flight operating LHR-NBO on the 20th, so I would therefore be stuck in NBO... Does that make sense?
Any info from crew who have gone on strike before would be greatly appreciated....
This is my 200th post... Woo Hoo!
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I just want to fly...
One night extra will be worth it when we get what we want from the company so if you do get an extra night use the extra nights allowances to to do something that you don't normally get time to do.
The next step is for the union to ballott members on strike action. Hopefully this will be a yes vote as it will send a clear message to the company that we have had enough.
Then the union set a date. At this point the company will not want the press/newspapers /passengers getting wind of a strike date so would not be surprised if an meeting was called a deal worked out.
The next step is for the union to ballott members on strike action. Hopefully this will be a yes vote as it will send a clear message to the company that we have had enough.
Then the union set a date. At this point the company will not want the press/newspapers /passengers getting wind of a strike date so would not be surprised if an meeting was called a deal worked out.
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Reply to IJWTF
One day strikes are not effective. It would have to be over a series of two consecutive days otherwise it would be too easy to cover the flights. This cannot be half hearted otherwise Virgin will seek out our weakness.
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Languages
Question guys,
Are PA's made in English and in the language of the destination.e.g Spanish on flights to Havana,Hindi to Mumbai,Arabic to Dubai etc or are they only made in English.
Cheers!
Are PA's made in English and in the language of the destination.e.g Spanish on flights to Havana,Hindi to Mumbai,Arabic to Dubai etc or are they only made in English.
Cheers!
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Just remember guys that striking has a major impact on all aspects of the business. That airshare that you are voting for would all but vanish for the entire company if a strike goes ahead. Look at our profits for last year and see how little we made, lets be realistic here and try to see what the future woulod hold if we went to strike.
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I know but...
SITYR - agreed that striking will be harmful to the business. Thats why we all have to stick together and vote to go on strike. The company will be forced to come back with a decent offer.
We have come this far and need to stick together. If we don't the company will laugh at us for being weak and not standing our ground.
As for profits its my firm belief that some clever accounting has been done. SRB is known to move money around to offset his tax liabilty, its an old but clever tactic that many business do. Of course they will shift profit from VS into Virgin Nigeria and other loss making Virgin branded companies, that way they don't pay tax.
I know yields are low on seats nowdays but no one will convince me the company aren't making profits unless a full and transparent audit is done. I heard the flight deck managed this during their pay negotions, again the company said they had no money, but the audit revealed otherwise. Can anyone from F/D confirm or deny this?
If its true then unite/amicus should be arranging to do this also.
We have come this far and need to stick together. If we don't the company will laugh at us for being weak and not standing our ground.
As for profits its my firm belief that some clever accounting has been done. SRB is known to move money around to offset his tax liabilty, its an old but clever tactic that many business do. Of course they will shift profit from VS into Virgin Nigeria and other loss making Virgin branded companies, that way they don't pay tax.
I know yields are low on seats nowdays but no one will convince me the company aren't making profits unless a full and transparent audit is done. I heard the flight deck managed this during their pay negotions, again the company said they had no money, but the audit revealed otherwise. Can anyone from F/D confirm or deny this?
If its true then unite/amicus should be arranging to do this also.