View Poll Results: Virgin Blue Crew - Did You vote to accept (Yes) or decline (No) the EBA
YES
16
28.07%
NO
41
71.93%
Voters: 57. This poll is closed
Virgin Blue EBA II (Poll)
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https://www.workchoices.gov.au/ourpl...agreements.htm
Roadshow, anyone? A few things were said at roadshows that were proven by participants to be direct lies (one such case is a question that was asked of a delegate if 4 sector BNE-MEL's can be done under the new EBA. His response was "No, they can not" but a person who was there proved that such a duty could be done) - that is false/misleading information.
The way I interpret this is that it refers only to Collective Agreements formed under Workchoices Legislatio, which our current one was not. I am going to contact the Helpline tomorrow to confirm this, but I am of the strong (but open to education from the Workchoices helpline) understanding that we cannot be forced off the current agreement.
The Workplace Relations Act makes it unlawful for someone to coerce a person into making a collective agreement, or to make false or misleading statements so that a person agrees to make a collective agreement.
Wages and conditions following termination
If an agreement made under WorkChoices is unilaterally terminated, employees will be covered by the Australian Fair Pay and Conditions Standard (the Standard) and protected award conditions (see next column).
If an agreement is unilaterally terminated by an employer or an employer’s bargaining agent, employees will also be covered by any redundancy provisions that were in the terminated agreement for a maximum period of 12 months. For more information about redundancy following unilateral termination of an agreement by an employer, see the ‘WorkChoices and preservation of redundancy entitlements’ fact sheet.
In addition, if an agreement is terminated with 90 days’ notice the employer can provide voluntary undertakings to their employees about the terms and conditions of employment above these minimum conditions. Such undertakings will need to be lodged with the OEA and will be enforceable.
If an agreement made under WorkChoices is unilaterally terminated, employees will be covered by the Australian Fair Pay and Conditions Standard (the Standard) and protected award conditions (see next column).
If an agreement is unilaterally terminated by an employer or an employer’s bargaining agent, employees will also be covered by any redundancy provisions that were in the terminated agreement for a maximum period of 12 months. For more information about redundancy following unilateral termination of an agreement by an employer, see the ‘WorkChoices and preservation of redundancy entitlements’ fact sheet.
In addition, if an agreement is terminated with 90 days’ notice the employer can provide voluntary undertakings to their employees about the terms and conditions of employment above these minimum conditions. Such undertakings will need to be lodged with the OEA and will be enforceable.
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No, No, No!
We cannot be forced off the current agreement - this is simply scaremongering.....
I know of no definite yes voters - quietly confident it will be a no vote - crew in this job for a long term career will come through - see you on the other side guys.....
Bvb
I know of no definite yes voters - quietly confident it will be a no vote - crew in this job for a long term career will come through - see you on the other side guys.....
Bvb
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Bad bad news folks
After reading last nights posts from 737NG_Girl, I too decided to contact the Workchoices helpline. I was told that even though our current agreement was made under the Workplace Relations Act and lodged with the AIRC, because its passed its nominal expiry date VB can apply to the AIRC to have it terminated
The girl could not tell me what the AIRC's process would be from there (ie would it involve consultation with the FAAA, the Cabin Crew body etc) but either way its very f
cking bad news
After reading last nights posts from 737NG_Girl, I too decided to contact the Workchoices helpline. I was told that even though our current agreement was made under the Workplace Relations Act and lodged with the AIRC, because its passed its nominal expiry date VB can apply to the AIRC to have it terminated
The girl could not tell me what the AIRC's process would be from there (ie would it involve consultation with the FAAA, the Cabin Crew body etc) but either way its very f
cking bad news
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Don't believe the hype. You cannot be forced onto adverse conditions. You always have a choice - even if that choice means resigning, you still have a choice.
Whether a no vote will prompt the company to engage in further discussions to determine why the proposed EBA was voted down or prompt them to pursue other options is anybodys guess. However, that is all it is, just a guess. What I do know is that it is not in the company's best interests to put such an integral resource to their daily operations offside.
There simply aren't enough resources available to train enough cabin crew to cover a large drop in available crew should there be a large number of resignations or an organised strike. No crew means no flights and even a 20% drop in available resources would affect daily operations.
I will wait for the outcome after the results are in and will make my decision about staying with the company when the time comes. In the meantime, in the interests of preserving the health and well-being of cabin crew, I will not bow down to the fear of Workchoices and vote this EBA in
Whether a no vote will prompt the company to engage in further discussions to determine why the proposed EBA was voted down or prompt them to pursue other options is anybodys guess. However, that is all it is, just a guess. What I do know is that it is not in the company's best interests to put such an integral resource to their daily operations offside.
There simply aren't enough resources available to train enough cabin crew to cover a large drop in available crew should there be a large number of resignations or an organised strike. No crew means no flights and even a 20% drop in available resources would affect daily operations.
I will wait for the outcome after the results are in and will make my decision about staying with the company when the time comes. In the meantime, in the interests of preserving the health and well-being of cabin crew, I will not bow down to the fear of Workchoices and vote this EBA in
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I have just been informed (by a very reliable source) that the results are in…………
Drum roll please………
Yes votes = 123
No votes = 992
Drum roll please………
Yes votes = 123
No votes = 992
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Can I suggest now that everyone puts in writing to both cabin crew management and the FAAA EXACTLY what they are after. Let them know what is important to you. Tell them what they got right in the EBA and what they got wrong.
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Fantastic! Thankfully there are enough crew out there who realised what a bad deal it was and could see thru the glitz and glamour presented.
Don't let your guard down now guys.....round one over, round two is next....
I agree with Smile - if we can't stay on our current EBA, let's let them know what we did and didn't like in the document.
Bvb
Don't let your guard down now guys.....round one over, round two is next....
I agree with Smile - if we can't stay on our current EBA, let's let them know what we did and didn't like in the document.
Bvb
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EBA Mythbusters
Friday 30th March, 2007
As many Cabin Crew members are aware, a 6 page document from a 'well meaning' Flight Deck member has been circulated. While we choose not to deal with the document clause-by-clause, should any crew member need clarification about points in the document you are most welcome to contact any of your Delegates or FAAA industrial staff. Alternatively, you can email me at ****@****.com.au (edited out prior to posting)
Clearly the document has been written by someone not privy to the negotiations, who only has a basic understanding of the industrial conditions and work carried out by Cabin Crew and who has admitted the document sets out their 'opinion' only. As such perhaps, they should stick to what they know, i.e. flying the aircraft and leave it to Cabin Crew who know their own job best.
The Flight Deck member admitted in the document that the proposed new EBA had not been compared with your existing Agreement. This should raise some serious concerns in the minds of all Cabin Crew because an outsider who has gone to the trouble to write a lengthy 'opinion' didn't even have the respect to compare the current with the new EBA. Derogatory comments, well meaning or otherwise, from outsiders such as "if the FAAA Representative sells you out", is not only unfounded but offensive. In all our Newsletters, Q&As as well as the Roadshows, your Association has presented you with factual information, sometimes in the face of strong criticism. We've answered you openly and honestly in every question you have raised to allow you to make an objective decision regarding your vote.
As outlined previously, we have recommended you support the new EBA and we continue to do so on the basis that we genuinely believe the new EBA, which Cabin Crew alongside industrial staff actually negotiated for you, is superior than your existing Agreement on many levels. For those crew who have voiced concerns or took the opportunity to attend a Roadshow or phone/email us detailed questions, the feedback we've received from you is that you feel more confident with the Agreement as a package and/or making an informed decision.
Finally, members should be absolutely confident that whether you support the Agreement or otherwise, your interests are always our first priority.
R**** W****
FAAA Virgin Blue Delegate
and Divisional President
Friday 30th March, 2007
As many Cabin Crew members are aware, a 6 page document from a 'well meaning' Flight Deck member has been circulated. While we choose not to deal with the document clause-by-clause, should any crew member need clarification about points in the document you are most welcome to contact any of your Delegates or FAAA industrial staff. Alternatively, you can email me at ****@****.com.au (edited out prior to posting)
Clearly the document has been written by someone not privy to the negotiations, who only has a basic understanding of the industrial conditions and work carried out by Cabin Crew and who has admitted the document sets out their 'opinion' only. As such perhaps, they should stick to what they know, i.e. flying the aircraft and leave it to Cabin Crew who know their own job best.
The Flight Deck member admitted in the document that the proposed new EBA had not been compared with your existing Agreement. This should raise some serious concerns in the minds of all Cabin Crew because an outsider who has gone to the trouble to write a lengthy 'opinion' didn't even have the respect to compare the current with the new EBA. Derogatory comments, well meaning or otherwise, from outsiders such as "if the FAAA Representative sells you out", is not only unfounded but offensive. In all our Newsletters, Q&As as well as the Roadshows, your Association has presented you with factual information, sometimes in the face of strong criticism. We've answered you openly and honestly in every question you have raised to allow you to make an objective decision regarding your vote.
As outlined previously, we have recommended you support the new EBA and we continue to do so on the basis that we genuinely believe the new EBA, which Cabin Crew alongside industrial staff actually negotiated for you, is superior than your existing Agreement on many levels. For those crew who have voiced concerns or took the opportunity to attend a Roadshow or phone/email us detailed questions, the feedback we've received from you is that you feel more confident with the Agreement as a package and/or making an informed decision.
Finally, members should be absolutely confident that whether you support the Agreement or otherwise, your interests are always our first priority.
R**** W****
FAAA Virgin Blue Delegate
and Divisional President
As such perhaps, they should stick to what they know, i.e. flying the aircraft and leave it to Cabin Crew who know their own job best.
The result I think surprised all of us - with 87% of pilots voting no, and 89% of Cabin Crew that voted choosing to vote No, it sends a strong message of discontent from the front line.
Finally, members should be absolutely confident that whether you support the Agreement or otherwise, your interests are always our first priority.
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In response to the above post, I recieved this via PM (with permission to Quote from it):
As a company pilot who has probably flown with you I want to say well done for a great response. The Captain in question was only trying to help undo some of the company propoganda and it obviously helped.
It's been reported he's been repremanded by our management for helping the EBA get voted down.
Another rumour doing the rounds is that B** H**field has resigned, so that's good news.
I think it would be good if you guys break free from the FAAA and form your own organisation. There is no doubt in my mind they are aligned with the company and must be getting some sort of compensation. It is insulting to think you are paying them for the privelege of them conspiring with the company to cut your conditions.
We have a group called VIPA that have started to really pose a threat to the AFAP. After years of the AFAP conspiring with the company, they seem to have changed thier tune dramatically. They are obviously threatened.
Have a look at vipanet.net for more info if you're interested. Maybe a VIAA could be started.
It's been reported he's been repremanded by our management for helping the EBA get voted down.
Another rumour doing the rounds is that B** H**field has resigned, so that's good news.
I think it would be good if you guys break free from the FAAA and form your own organisation. There is no doubt in my mind they are aligned with the company and must be getting some sort of compensation. It is insulting to think you are paying them for the privelege of them conspiring with the company to cut your conditions.
We have a group called VIPA that have started to really pose a threat to the AFAP. After years of the AFAP conspiring with the company, they seem to have changed thier tune dramatically. They are obviously threatened.
Have a look at vipanet.net for more info if you're interested. Maybe a VIAA could be started.
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Now, I'm pssed off!
I've known the flight-deck member in question for 12 years now, and to be totally honest - I don't think there is a more trustworthy, conservative, well-intentioned man to be found. To blame him (and that is what's happening) for the overwhelming no vote is to avoid responsibility by shifting the focus from the woeful document onto an easy scapegoat.
How could his photocopied opinions be what 'convinced' nearly 1000 crew to vote no, especially when this was pitted against all kinds of glossy, polished propaganda - roadshows, dvds, posters, brochures etc and not to mention the loads of scare-mongering that went hand-in-hand with them?!?
What will it take for management to open their eyes and take some responsibility for what's going on? And don't get me started on the associated unions and their recent performances or lack thereof....
ssed off! I've known the flight-deck member in question for 12 years now, and to be totally honest - I don't think there is a more trustworthy, conservative, well-intentioned man to be found. To blame him (and that is what's happening) for the overwhelming no vote is to avoid responsibility by shifting the focus from the woeful document onto an easy scapegoat.
How could his photocopied opinions be what 'convinced' nearly 1000 crew to vote no, especially when this was pitted against all kinds of glossy, polished propaganda - roadshows, dvds, posters, brochures etc and not to mention the loads of scare-mongering that went hand-in-hand with them?!?
What will it take for management to open their eyes and take some responsibility for what's going on? And don't get me started on the associated unions and their recent performances or lack thereof....
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Man, EBA time in any airline is a priceless thing to observe...
To begin with:
1) I'm only generally familiar with your old (current) EBA; and
2) I have barely bothered to delve into your new one.
Those that know me here (and at Jet* Domestic) know my union background. And, on that basis, I'm more than happy to be considered biased. At any rate, I like to think my opinion is well balanced, and my responses here generally non-emotive.
Now then...I read with great interest you voted down your agreement. Irrespective of your view, it's now time to move forward as a COLLECTIVE, and let your negotiating team know what you really want from this EBA.
Interestingly , your pilots have weighed into the debate (oh how FORTUNATE for everyone!). My, lets thrill at their industrial knowledge of the working flight attendant.
As far as RW is concerned, I agree with the newsletter 100% - this is a matter for CABIN CREW to deal with. Outside input - particularly from other areas such as the pilot fraternity - CAN be helpful. In this case, it would seem, the input has been misinformed.
737NG-Girl. you state:
Yes, by all means you use whatever resources you feel necessary. Actually, there was little in RW's newsletter that I considered to be belittling . Clearly, like any rep, the last thing you want is people - who have NO interest in the voting or outcome of the EBA - influencing the outcome based on misinformation. RW by all accounts, calls a spade a spade.
Your pilots do, after all, fly the aircraft, and as I understand, have always operated to a different EBA than you - so why the sudden interest?
Another pearler...
Oh yes - because Jet* pilots did this, didn't they, and they won SO much as a result! 
Like flying an A330 for much the same as an A320! Yeah...great job. Another win!
I especially like the bit about the FAAA being 'aligned' with the company. This hoary little chestnut always makes the appearance, with the threat of libel always lurking in the corners. Proof is one thing - innuendo is another.
I love the touch of how it's "insulting to think you are paying them for the privelege (sic)" - insulting for WHOM exactly...seems this pilots knickers are well and truly knotted, for someone who's not even able to VOTE on the EBA!
What I'd really like to know - as an interested outsider - is how much this pilot (like many others) actually know about the two EBA comparisons. Have the commenting pilots actually read the documents, and considered the operational outcomes, themselves - or have they instead listened to 'opinion' rather than fact. Ignorance masking itself as knowledge is a dangerous thing.
As I mentioned before, I haven't read much of the now defeated EBA, so at any rate, it's back to the drawing board. Any emotive opinion now is worth zero - the key is outlining what you didn't like, vs what you do.
As for the tripe about VIPA (blah blah blah), let the pilots do their thing. I don't profess to even know how their EBA operates - but at least I'm honest enough to admit it.
In closing, ask yourself this...in all the years of flight attendants (and hostesses before that) in this country, why has the FAAA as it stands today the only union that represents crew in this country?
Others have tried (eg. TWU) in years gone by, and failed - again, ask yourself why? And ask yourself why as a niche employee group (whose members only exist in airlines, in a specific job catgeory) they have 5000-odd members across all the airlines?
You know - you could spend years - literally years - bleating "I don't like the FAAA for this" blah blah blah...but it won't get you anywhere.
Better start putting your heads together guys - you've got another EBA to negotiate...and your team could use all the feedback it needs.
I wonder just how many Cabin Crew have been just as concerned about the Pilot's EBA terms and conditions...
To begin with:
1) I'm only generally familiar with your old (current) EBA; and
2) I have barely bothered to delve into your new one.
Those that know me here (and at Jet* Domestic) know my union background. And, on that basis, I'm more than happy to be considered biased. At any rate, I like to think my opinion is well balanced, and my responses here generally non-emotive.
Now then...I read with great interest you voted down your agreement. Irrespective of your view, it's now time to move forward as a COLLECTIVE, and let your negotiating team know what you really want from this EBA.
Interestingly , your pilots have weighed into the debate (oh how FORTUNATE for everyone!). My, lets thrill at their industrial knowledge of the working flight attendant.
As far as RW is concerned, I agree with the newsletter 100% - this is a matter for CABIN CREW to deal with. Outside input - particularly from other areas such as the pilot fraternity - CAN be helpful. In this case, it would seem, the input has been misinformed.
737NG-Girl. you state:
"We are allowed to research whichever methods we choose when making a decision regarding the way we voted - emails like this are condescending and belittling to Cabin Crew & Pilots alike."
Your pilots do, after all, fly the aircraft, and as I understand, have always operated to a different EBA than you - so why the sudden interest?
Another pearler...
"I think it would be good if you guys break free from the FAAA and form your own organisation. There is no doubt in my mind they are aligned with the company and must be getting some sort of compensation. It is insulting to think you are paying them for the privelege of them conspiring with the company to cut your conditions."
Like flying an A330 for much the same as an A320! Yeah...great job. Another win!I especially like the bit about the FAAA being 'aligned' with the company. This hoary little chestnut always makes the appearance, with the threat of libel always lurking in the corners. Proof is one thing - innuendo is another.
I love the touch of how it's "insulting to think you are paying them for the privelege (sic)" - insulting for WHOM exactly...seems this pilots knickers are well and truly knotted, for someone who's not even able to VOTE on the EBA!
What I'd really like to know - as an interested outsider - is how much this pilot (like many others) actually know about the two EBA comparisons. Have the commenting pilots actually read the documents, and considered the operational outcomes, themselves - or have they instead listened to 'opinion' rather than fact. Ignorance masking itself as knowledge is a dangerous thing.
As I mentioned before, I haven't read much of the now defeated EBA, so at any rate, it's back to the drawing board. Any emotive opinion now is worth zero - the key is outlining what you didn't like, vs what you do.
As for the tripe about VIPA (blah blah blah), let the pilots do their thing. I don't profess to even know how their EBA operates - but at least I'm honest enough to admit it.
In closing, ask yourself this...in all the years of flight attendants (and hostesses before that) in this country, why has the FAAA as it stands today the only union that represents crew in this country?
Others have tried (eg. TWU) in years gone by, and failed - again, ask yourself why? And ask yourself why as a niche employee group (whose members only exist in airlines, in a specific job catgeory) they have 5000-odd members across all the airlines?
You know - you could spend years - literally years - bleating "I don't like the FAAA for this" blah blah blah...but it won't get you anywhere.
Better start putting your heads together guys - you've got another EBA to negotiate...and your team could use all the feedback it needs.
I wonder just how many Cabin Crew have been just as concerned about the Pilot's EBA terms and conditions...
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One obvious point, RW's email was written before the vote closed on the 2nd? So who is blaming who?
Trustworthy, conservative people don't usually make public statements like reps for another group must be receiving compensation or would sell out their constituents(!?).
Rather than blame, you've made your own very public statement. Now you have the perfect opportunity to put yourself in your reps' shoes, better still stand with them and work out your next move together. Don't forget advice is a must.
Trustworthy, conservative people don't usually make public statements like reps for another group must be receiving compensation or would sell out their constituents(!?).
Rather than blame, you've made your own very public statement. Now you have the perfect opportunity to put yourself in your reps' shoes, better still stand with them and work out your next move together. Don't forget advice is a must.
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Its imperative that we return to the table, (leaving the ugh behind from the last discussion) and resolve these concerns that the CC have to complete this EBA. Holding grudges and hang ups is not going to allow us to move on at all. Yes we have more knowledge and have more information biased or not, and this is where the negotiations begin, informing the CC management what the proposed changes are needed from the previous document and the next proposed/amended EBA. Yes this EBA has been dragging on for a long time, maybe to the detriment to the company and outselves in the cabin. It may have been the lack of management from our previous cc manager, thou we have someone who does listen now( he has made some great changes eg. CCOS), thou maybe we are being possible to misunderstand, lets make it not possible to misunderstand. Lets actually be proactive and not reactive.
What you think?
What you think?
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The bottom line is that nearly 90% of crew voted NO.
This means you have given both the company and the FAAA a strong and clear message.Now you have to tell the FAAA what it is that you want in any new negotiation.The FAAA represents you and as such should listen to what you say not dictate to you what you need.
It does not matter if someone else within the company wants or tries to give you advice.it is really no different from the company telling you what they believe is to be the best offer.It is up to you whether to build on that advice or reject it.
Don't be surprised at what messages you get from the union and the company because they have just had a slap in the face and no one particularly likes that.
This means you have given both the company and the FAAA a strong and clear message.Now you have to tell the FAAA what it is that you want in any new negotiation.The FAAA represents you and as such should listen to what you say not dictate to you what you need.
It does not matter if someone else within the company wants or tries to give you advice.it is really no different from the company telling you what they believe is to be the best offer.It is up to you whether to build on that advice or reject it.
Don't be surprised at what messages you get from the union and the company because they have just had a slap in the face and no one particularly likes that.
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Congrats Mr Seatback 2, couldn't have said it better myself.
The worst part of this EBA issue is that those who believed that the EBA fitted their lifestyle and OPENLY admitted that they are voting YES were immediately considered to be part of the dark side and were publicly dissed for wanting the EBA voted in. On many occasions I found myself in situations where some staff would get aggressive and very defensive because of how I felt about the EBA. I can't believe that I am working with people who are like this. I just want to come to work, have a good time doing what I am doing and have more of a say in how my roster is constructed, and I believe that this is what the new EBA would have given me. At the moment, I try and bid for morning starts and get all evening starts, I very rarely get the bids that I ask for and I find this very annoying. I do believe that the new PBS that management were telling us about that would come with the new EBA would have given me a better choice of roster.
Also another thing that I found interesting about what 737NG_Girl said was this:
In earlier post that I listed in the last thread about the EBA, I was dissed by poster "crewbus" for seeking further clarification of the EBA with an independent outsider (namely my partner). I agree, we should be able to speak to others to seek clarification etc, but just make sure that these people have access to the old and new EBA information ensuring that the information given is informed information and not just onesided.
I for one am one of the minority who thought that this EBA would have worked just fine if voted in. All I can hope is that we do get a second chance at the EBA. Just remember, how many NO votes will Virgin Blue accept before a decision is made to put an end to all of this. No EBA will contain everything that every Cabin Crew member wants. Remember, it is business. We need to have a bit of give and take or we may have another Ansett on our hands. Consider job security and having a pay packet to take home every fortnight.
Here's to a quick and satisfactory resolution.
Also another thing that I found interesting about what 737NG_Girl said was this:
We are allowed to research whichever methods we choose when making a decision regarding the way we voted
I for one am one of the minority who thought that this EBA would have worked just fine if voted in. All I can hope is that we do get a second chance at the EBA. Just remember, how many NO votes will Virgin Blue accept before a decision is made to put an end to all of this. No EBA will contain everything that every Cabin Crew member wants. Remember, it is business. We need to have a bit of give and take or we may have another Ansett on our hands. Consider job security and having a pay packet to take home every fortnight.
Here's to a quick and satisfactory resolution.