BA IR issues

[Lucifer]

Originally Posted by Pax Agent

Ok guys i'm crapping myself now!!! I'm in LGW SF and put my application in about 3 weeks ago! I've still not heard anything and have sent emails on ESS as to my application but to no avail! My next plan was to go and see them in person but having been in twice (inc today when i had just flown trans-atlantic and was shattered) and both times no one was there!!! Now they've been given the boot where do i stand if they walk out?

Yes! Hurry up and get in whatever it takes, as you don't want to be on the wrong side of your colleagues if it does happen.

[SuperBoy]

Originally Posted by Boy In Blue

I am a cop and earn £2000 per month.

We are police/safety officers onboard the aircraft.

Originally Posted by Boy In Blue

My brother in law is a fire fighter and gets £1800.

We fight fires onboard the aircraft

Originally Posted by Boy In Blue

we get paid more than nurses who have to endure dealing with total nightmare people in casualty departments all over the UK.

We get paid more than nurses and have to endure dealing with heart attacks, strokes etc. etc. on aircraft all over the WORLD without the facilities available to them.

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Disclaimer: The above post is not meant to insult or demean anyone or any persons chosen profession.

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by SuperBoy

We are police/safety officers onboard the aircraft.

How many times a year do you use the restraint kit?

We fight fires onboard the aircraft

A raging warehouse inferno is not really the same as an oven fire. Lets be honest, you only get a days training in how to put on a smoke hood and discharge some BCFs into an oven, lav, or behind a panel then a refresher every three years. It's stretching it a bit to compare yourself to a firefighter.

We get paid more than nurses and have to endure dealing with heart attacks, strokes etc. etc. on aircraft all over the WORLD without the facilities available to them.

Whats the big deal about doing it all over the WORLD? The aircraft could be somewhere over Scotland or somewhere over Africa, you still have the same resources on board. Sure you have first aid training, a medical kit (only half of which you can use), and an AED, but you also have the back up of fully qualified doctors and nurses at the end of the phone 24/7 and the first thing you do when the situation looks iffy is make a PA for any medically qualified staff on board. Why bother with that if you are better at dealing with these things than a nurse?
I think you are pushing this comparison thing a little far, especially as the fire training isn't actually any more complex than what I did for my Boy Scouts Firefighters badge (honestly, it isn't, and I did that when I was 14. Had to put a real chip pan fire out too!).

[TopBunk]

Carnage

Well said, but I must criticise your CRM, mate.

Don't you know that if you criticise BA CC they will require so much TLC or they will be so stressed out that they will need a 'lack of crm payment'. As for what is seen in routine SEP tests, well, say no more, it will be alright on the night, I hope!

About time some teeth were introduced into recurrent testing, imho.

[Boy In Blue]

public perception

Originally Posted by SuperBoy

We are police/safety officers onboard the aircraft.

Fair enough. However, there is a difference between dealing with relatively wealthy people who are generally happy to be going on holiday etc and dealing with junkies and violent street robbers. Much as I appreciate the quality of SLF is getting poorer you do not have to have body armour, CS spray and a baton to deal with you're customers - thats easyjet!


We fight fires onboard the aircraft

You do not have to cut mangled people out of cars and the rest of the point has been made by CarnageM



We get paid more than nurses and have to endure dealing with heart attacks, strokes etc. etc. on aircraft all over the WORLD without the facilities available to them.

No violent, spitting drunks with stab wounds in Club I expect.

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Disclaimer: The above post is not meant to insult or demean anyone or any persons chosen profession.

I really appreciate you saying this and you can see my thoughts on Crew above.

The basic point I was making though was that you will not get public support. Without this you will fail if you strike. I would suggest that the vast majority of the public do not think you perform the role of a police firefighting medical expert. Please do not think I am being critical. Its just an observation and I still enjoy flying with you boys and particularly you girls.

[SuperBoy]

Boy in Blue,

I understand what your saying I was making a lighthearted comment.

CM,

Where to begin. It would however be a waste of my time as you are obviously set in your opinions.

[Flying_Sarah747]

Carnage Matey, what's your problem? We are all aware that we are paid better than most airlines, and have better conditions, but what's so wrong in us wanting to keep up those standards?

We have obviously made a life for ourselves based on our current earnings and working conditions, so if they're taken away from us, there are some of us who won't be able to pay the mortgage anymore, won't be able to pay off our loans etc, etc, etc.

If I ever have to fly with you I think I'll off load myself! You've obviously got a chip on your shoulder about something. Just get over it!

To everyone else...Good luck guys in what ever we decide to do and here's hoping that we will still be able to keep what we have!

P.S. Carnage Matey, what do you feel about the pilots pension issue??? Bet you're gonna fight for that hey? We all want the same thing in the end...Just think about that next time you feel like going on one of your little rants.

[HZ123]

Sarah is correct in what she says. However life has moved on with far to many competitors offering the same or cheaper fares and better levels of service. I regret the passing of a BA of the 70's and 80's but that was the last time I recall us being the best and selling what the customer wanted. Whatever our views may be we will either accept change which must amount to loss of monies and conditions or find a proper job. Our case is not helped with CC always moaning and groaning about how complex and trying the job is, when we all know it is easy therefore make the most of it. How quickly we forget BA connect and their demise.

[Get Smart]

Well Paid?

Excuse me? Without wishing to stir up a hornets nest, I'm full-time WW LHR crew on new contract. If I bring home £1800 per month, I'm over the moon! Only cleared £1066 this month (no leave, full-time). Whilst it's not always that bad, it very often can be. My average is about £1600 at the most after tax.

Taking more than a weeks leave is not an option. I'd loose to much money for lack of flying and my pay would drop beyond financial survival.
I live in fear of being sick as the loss of pay is again, way too much. My basic if I don't fly isn't more than £890 per month!

Even a lovely £1800 a month doesn't go far when you have dependants, a mortgage, a car, running expenses of a car, inflated utility bills and council tax, insurances, food (one must eat). I'm wondering what else Willie would like to take from us? If they succeed, I simply cannot afford to continue working for BA which I desperately don't want to happen.

The amount of 24 hours I'm now getting on my roster are also a financial killer. I'd get more money if I were a cop or a fire fighter - whom incicentally, also aren't paid enough. You guys do an amazing job. I admire and appreciate your dedication so please don't think I'm having a go at other peoples occupations as I'm not. Just don't think it's a bed of roses at BA.

This is not a 'poor me' thread. I love flying. I love my job at BA. I love the crew. I have fun at work and work extremely hard, but my point is, is that if WW wants to take more off people like us, there's no future. This is my third major airline, and it's the worst pay. I was earning more money (pro-rata) 10 years ago at EK!

As for getting the pax on our side, perhaps consider what you'd prefer on board your flight to JFK when you've paid a fortune for your club world tix? A 20 year old Vicki Pollard with attitude plus or a 35 + professional, experienced, groomed, mature crew member who enjoys the job? Because that's all that BA are going to get when they don't value what they have!

This thread has been the only place I've been able to find some valuable info so thanks to those who have provided it.

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by Flying_Sarah747

Carnage Matey, what's your problem? We are all aware that we are paid better than most airlines, and have better conditions, but what's so wrong in us wanting to keep up those standards?

Nothing at all. I've never suggested you should take a pay cut, just that you should do some more sectors per month for that money instead of spending so much time sitting around at Compass.

We have obviously made a life for ourselves based on our current earnings and working conditions, so if they're taken away from us, there are some of us who won't be able to pay the mortgage anymore, won't be able to pay off our loans etc, etc, etc.

Nobodys talking about taking money off you. BA only reintroduced the hourly rate idea when BASSA demanded a huge pay rise by moving new contract pay scales to match the old contract ones. The hourly rate proposal has now been withdrawn so who is threatening a pay cut?

If I ever have to fly with you I think I'll off load myself!

But you have flown with me, and you didn't offload yourself. It's very easy to charicature people who don't agree with your view as "cabin crew haters", especially in an anonymous forum. The reality is that perfectly rational people, who have a fine relationship with the people they work with, can disagree with each others views and can certainly disagree with the BASSA propaganda. PPRuNe is not the BASSA forum, and here we are allowed to mention the working practices of cabin crew and BASSA without being accused of appauling [sic] CRM.

P.S. Carnage Matey, what do you feel about the pilots pension issue??? Bet you're gonna fight for that hey?

Damn right, just like most of the crew on my trip yesterday who don't like the idea of Willies pension raid on the staff. In fact, just like BASSA too.

We all want the same thing in the end...Just think about that next time you feel like going on one of your little rants.

Untrue. If you wanted to continue uncompetetive practices I could almost bring myself to support you, based on the principal that we need better than the average cabin crew to maintain our brand differentiation. The reality is that you not only wish to continue your uncompetitive practices, you want to make them even less cost effective by increasing everyones pay! Thats the reality of the situation. You can accuse me of ranting all you like, the reality is that you simply don't like people telling you the truth. I'd like you to provide value for money for BA. Is that too much to ask?

[Con-Trail]

Get Smart,

I really sympathise. I just hope that aspiring CC will see the new contract for what it really is: cr@p!

Eventually things will turn against WW. I just hope that the awareness of the whole situation amongst CC is as good as on this forum.
I think the best thing to do is talk about it on your trips... and get those votes in!

All the best


C-T

[SuperBoy]

CM,

Here is an interesting link.

http://www.futureairlinepilot.com/salaries.html

If you compare the VS and BA salaries for say a LH captain I'm sure you can deduce that a captain max salary at BA is GBP29 776 pa more than at VS.

I'm not denying you what is rightfully yours but that is a big percentile difference.

If you are so convinced that the company needs to stay competitive by cutting away at cabin crew t&c's maybe they should cut back Flight crew t&c's to be more competitive.

We are not asking for more than what we have now. We are only asking not to lose what little we have left.

I am sure you will come up with some clever, witty, clearly opiniated reply but you are entitled to it as you have mentioned numerous times before.

Like I said I know you guys deserve your terms and conditions. Don't begrudge us ours.

[Carnage Matey!]

Yes very interesting, particularly as it was last updated in January 2004, which is very nearly three years ago. Since then Virgin have had a pay rise of nearly 30%, which puts their top Captains pay at, oh what a surprise, virtually the same as BA! Also their Captains are only contracted to fly a maximum of 750 hours per year, not the 900 hours that BAs pilots are contracted to fly, not to mention that it takes 24 years to reach the top pay point in BA, whereas Virgin Atlantic haven't even been in business 24 years. So I guess that makes us fairly competitive. Like I've said before, it you want to examine out t&c's bring it on. We are benchmarked, we can show you exactly what we cost in comparison to other airlines and it's the going rate. Can you say that?

By the way, you are asking for more than what you have now. You are asking for the new contract pay scales to progress to the old contract pay scales. Asking for more than you have now is a central part of BASSAs ballot.

[SuperBoy]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Merging the old and new contracts in your eyes might be asking for more but there should never have been different rates of pay for people doing the same job for the same airline.

You would feel the same way if you were paid 50% of another employee doing exactly the same job as you. Alas you don't else you might be singing a different tune.

As for the going rate of cabin crew. I am earning less now working for BA than I did working for another airline. My choice I know.

As I said before this discussion with you is pointless. It is however interesting to see your keen interest in the CC T&C's. It must be awful having to work with people you so clearly despise.

[traveller5]

From a public point of view, I'm sure most people will not support BA cabin and flight crews' overpay and current conditions! However, in their place, most people would want to keep the easy money given and would be liars to say otherwise. That considered, I'm not convinced a strike will achieve much other than more public inconvenience. BA's last 3 years of disruption -for whatever reason - is now as regular as the disruption seen with Alitalia, for example. The disruption, togther with a main hub that cannot cope with the current number of flights (waiting for a gate after 12 hours flying etc) and BA's very poor punctuality can only serve to permanently damage the airline's reputation.

I think we know the crew will strike, and so good luck to them. However, they need to think carefully about the timing and should aim to hit the heart of BA business for maximum effect, i.e. Premium travel. If the Monday morning premium longhaul traffic is dented, rather than half term family holidays, BA will soon react.

As for Carnage Matey, he seems to be a very bitter driver.

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by SuperBoy

Merging the old and new contracts in your eyes might be asking for more but there should never have been different rates of pay for people doing the same job for the same airline.

Not in my eyes, but in the eyes of anybody numerate. You are asking for an increase in the rates of pay for anybody who stays in the job more than 7 years. That is an increase in pay, no ifs, no buts. Whether somebody doing the same job ets more is neither here nor there. Thats the contract you signed. Striking for more is striking for a pay rise.

It must be awful having to work with people you so clearly despise.

As a community I think you really have to get over this precious sort of behaviour. It is a stock repsonse from many that if somebody doesn't support you it is because they despise you and wish to persecute you. Well it's wrong and its just a way of burying your heads in the sand and refusing to discuss the issues.

Originally Posted by traveller5

From a public point of view, I'm sure most people will not support BA cabin and flight crews' overpay and current conditions!

As stated previously several times, BA flight crews pay is very competitive. Please extend us the courtesy of actually reading the thread before chipping in with uninformed comments.

[jerrystinger]

BA cabin and pilot staff want, want, want from the company, but give very little in return. Does the company get value for money in terms of staff productivity? No, and hence the current "issues".

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by jerrystinger

BA cabin and pilot staff want, want, want from the company, but give very little in return. Does the company get value for money in terms of staff productivity? No, and hence the current "issues".

Another poster who doesn't bother to read the thread. If you would like anybody to take you seriously jerry then pay attention. Flight crew are not ballotting the company for more. In fact perhaps you would like to tell us what 'more' we are currently asking for? And once again, BA gets up to the maximum legal flying hours per year for its flight crew at a very competitive rate which even the management do not dispute. So please, if you can't be bothered to bring something worthwhile to the debate then go back to planespotters.com where people might be interested in what you have to say. Take traveller5 with you.

[3Greens]

Originally Posted by jerrystinger

BA cabin and pilot staff want, want, want from the company, but give very little in return. Does the company get value for money in terms of staff productivity? No, and hence the current "issues".

Unfounded rubbish. Please quantify your claims.

[luoto]

"A 20 year old Vicki Pollard with attitude plus or a 35 + professional, experienced, groomed, mature crew member who enjoys the job?"

The problem is that SOME passengers prefer to fly a carrier who has more of that sort than your breakdown of BA CC... and sadly an increasing percentage of customers fall into the self same category, even if they have carried the VP attributes into middle and older age

Air travel has become too much like a bus nowadays, combined with dropping standards and ... ;(