BA IR issues
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Carnage-Matey: BASSA is not a few militant people in an office, but representatives of the cabin crew community. So it is incorrect to say that we have not met BA management halfway on some issues: Our reps urged us not to accept the EG300 (turns out they were correct), but we as a union agreed to have it implemented; our reps urged those as LGW not to accept the SF-LGW, but we agreed to it (again, to our peril); post Sept 11th, we as a union agreed to help cut costs by signing up to the TEMPORARY removal of a crew member from our longhaul aircraft - and that has become a PERMANENT removal, bringing us below the level of crew complements on airlines such as Singapore, Malaysia, JAL, ANA, Virgin, etc. So it cannot be said that we don't make concessions.
Your knowledge of history is somewhat selective too. BASSA recommended you voted for EG300 and you took the money BA offered, which is why it's a bit rich for you to know complain that you don't like it. I don't know about the background to SFG. I do know that people like to bring up the removal of the 16th crew member from the 747 (note that this was at a time that the seating capacity was reducing from 395 to 351 or 295). That may indeed take us below the crew complement of Singapore, Malaysia, JAL, ANA, Virgin etc but they also squeeze a lot more passengers on their aircraft and Virgin regularly fly one or more crew members down.
I have worked for the company for 10 years and I am paid pretty much the same as Virgin
What I would like to see is a list of all the savings BA crew at LHR think they have made in the last five years. As far as I can see they consist of one crew member of the 747.
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Carnage Matey, you must be reading different BASSA missives to me. I don't know where this idea has sprung from that the breakdown in IR is a recent event and we haven't been banging our heads against a brick wall for years. As you well know, with our flying schedules and the fact that many of us commute or live quite a distance from the airport, it is very rare that we are all able to attend these meetings. That is why we have the BASSA forum and noticeboards on the internet. We feel safe and secure enough to raise our concerns with our reps (who, as you know, are also crew and, therefore, share the same concerns.) I have never been led blindly by my union and have always made my own decisions based on information I can glean from the tools at my disposal. I have never been militant in the slightest, but if even a reasonable person such as myself, is contemplating strike action, then there must be something wrong with picture. I feel very let down by the management. I agree some crew were not informed about what they were voting on, which is why a newsletter was dispatched and, while it may not be in the tone you or I (being reasonable, rational people?) might correspond, that is what we pay them for: on the one hand I have my management telling me lies and reneging on agreements, and on the other I have reps baying for blood. So I stand in the middle and read both sides, draw on my own experience and then make my decision. Too many of us in the crew community feel the same for it to be dismissed as a militant few.
Regarding the EG300, BASSA did not tell me which way to vote but asked us to read all the facts carefully before voting. Which I did, according to my conscience. Ooh, gosh, I think I may have contributed to saving the company some money there. Careful! Now the management has reneged on their agreement (something that I believe the flight crew community also has issues with. I flew recently with a 747 Captain who said, "The day the first Flight Crew is dismissed under EG300, is the day I strike". Maybe that was just his opinion, though.) and people like me who are genuinely ill, feel compelled to come to work no matter how unprofessional we appear to our passengers or how it may affect our cabin and flight crew colleagues down the line. (c/f my SFO)
The removal of Nos. 16 and 11 was another cost-saving we agreed to in the light of BA heading for bankruptcy post Sept 11th. They promised to bring them back when we were back in the black again, but now, only because of pressure from our union do we have them re-instated on 10 of 73 747/777 destinations. And the reason given was due to those flights being incredibly taxing, rather than anything to do with seat configuration. Let's be clear, though, that removing World Traveller seats does not equate to less work. They replaced those seats with Club seats, albeit less seats. I regularly choose to work in Traveller now as it is less demanding than the Club service. I have face-to-face interaction with a World Traveller passenger an average of about 7 times on a transatlantic flight; I have interact with a Club passenger a minimum of 20 times on that same flight. The Club service on a high-J is almost invariably the last to complete the meal service. The removal of the 16 and 11 has resulted in a significant increase in the work load.
I mentioned that after 10 years with the company I am paid the same as a Virgin crew member. And I stand by that. I have 2 friends who work for Virgin (one has been working for 2 years, and the other for 3.5 years). Sometimes they take home less than me and sometimes more. As I mentioned, I AM on the new payscale. I said "AFTER 10 YEARS". If I had applied for Virgin instead of BA, I would most likely be a Number 1 by now and reap the resulting increase in my wages. At BA, I have been giving chicken and beef out now for 10 years and it's getting a little dull. Not even First trained yet. And no Promotion in sight for a great many years. Hence the change in career.
LHR-777: I, like most of the crew community, do not want a strike - I just want my managers to start managing the company coffers correctly and keep their dirty mitts off my money. That doesn't help you, I know. But I am not taking any chances with my holiday either, which is why Virgin, via Touchdown, is getting my money. Sad, isn't it?
Regarding the EG300, BASSA did not tell me which way to vote but asked us to read all the facts carefully before voting. Which I did, according to my conscience. Ooh, gosh, I think I may have contributed to saving the company some money there. Careful! Now the management has reneged on their agreement (something that I believe the flight crew community also has issues with. I flew recently with a 747 Captain who said, "The day the first Flight Crew is dismissed under EG300, is the day I strike". Maybe that was just his opinion, though.) and people like me who are genuinely ill, feel compelled to come to work no matter how unprofessional we appear to our passengers or how it may affect our cabin and flight crew colleagues down the line. (c/f my SFO)
The removal of Nos. 16 and 11 was another cost-saving we agreed to in the light of BA heading for bankruptcy post Sept 11th. They promised to bring them back when we were back in the black again, but now, only because of pressure from our union do we have them re-instated on 10 of 73 747/777 destinations. And the reason given was due to those flights being incredibly taxing, rather than anything to do with seat configuration. Let's be clear, though, that removing World Traveller seats does not equate to less work. They replaced those seats with Club seats, albeit less seats. I regularly choose to work in Traveller now as it is less demanding than the Club service. I have face-to-face interaction with a World Traveller passenger an average of about 7 times on a transatlantic flight; I have interact with a Club passenger a minimum of 20 times on that same flight. The Club service on a high-J is almost invariably the last to complete the meal service. The removal of the 16 and 11 has resulted in a significant increase in the work load.
I mentioned that after 10 years with the company I am paid the same as a Virgin crew member. And I stand by that. I have 2 friends who work for Virgin (one has been working for 2 years, and the other for 3.5 years). Sometimes they take home less than me and sometimes more. As I mentioned, I AM on the new payscale. I said "AFTER 10 YEARS". If I had applied for Virgin instead of BA, I would most likely be a Number 1 by now and reap the resulting increase in my wages. At BA, I have been giving chicken and beef out now for 10 years and it's getting a little dull. Not even First trained yet. And no Promotion in sight for a great many years. Hence the change in career.
LHR-777: I, like most of the crew community, do not want a strike - I just want my managers to start managing the company coffers correctly and keep their dirty mitts off my money. That doesn't help you, I know. But I am not taking any chances with my holiday either, which is why Virgin, via Touchdown, is getting my money. Sad, isn't it?
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C.M.
I guess your not one of the "I wish BALPA was more like BASSA" pilots then, when EG300 was agreed to by BALPA long before it was by cabin crew. Indeed there are many pilots out there who believe BALPA could be "a bit more mlitant" now and again.
I'm not saying negotiation isn't the best way forward, and admire the way BALPA has carried on during the pensions negotiations. Something I think our unions could learn a lot from.
Obviously BALPA has it's faults too and I'm sure Rob Hall shared a few of them with good old BA when he sold you all down the river.
But less said about that one the better I guess.
Not many ex union reps from the crew community in management jobs now that I know of.......
I'm in CC89 by the way.
I guess your not one of the "I wish BALPA was more like BASSA" pilots then, when EG300 was agreed to by BALPA long before it was by cabin crew. Indeed there are many pilots out there who believe BALPA could be "a bit more mlitant" now and again.
I'm not saying negotiation isn't the best way forward, and admire the way BALPA has carried on during the pensions negotiations. Something I think our unions could learn a lot from.
Obviously BALPA has it's faults too and I'm sure Rob Hall shared a few of them with good old BA when he sold you all down the river.
But less said about that one the better I guess.
Not many ex union reps from the crew community in management jobs now that I know of.......
I'm in CC89 by the way.
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"Rob Hall selling us down the river" is somewhat subjective, and certainly not my view. There were inevitably aspects of our pay deal which lead to unforeseen disadvantages but on the whole we came out of the whole thing very well as a community. I haven't seen the cabin crew unions make such gains any time recently. EG300 is a pain, it was signed up to without consultation by a single BALPA rep and he was thrown out at the next elections. Lesson learned there, but its frankly not that big a deal to me. We had less than half the sickness of cabin crew before EG300, despite our more stringent medical requirements, and still have much lower sickness levels. EG300 has not changed the way I or any of my mates operate. We are our own judges of our fitness to fly and we do or don't according to how we feel and not because of the fear of an interview with a junior office dweller. If some people feel intimidated by that well thats unfortunate. I don't. Personally I don't want BALPA to be more like BASSA and I wouldn't be a member if they were. I don't want to be told what to think and I want to achieve something more than just saying no.
PS The reason there aren't many ex-CC union reps in management jobs is because they lack the appropriate skills. I think that says more about the calibre of your reps than ours, something which is reflected in the results they achieve. I never fail to be amazed by the appaulling[sic] spelling in the BASSA newsletter.
PS The reason there aren't many ex-CC union reps in management jobs is because they lack the appropriate skills. I think that says more about the calibre of your reps than ours, something which is reflected in the results they achieve. I never fail to be amazed by the appaulling[sic] spelling in the BASSA newsletter.
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Carnage Matey, despite your disdain - verging on bitterness - towards cabin crews, you seem to spend more time on this section of the forum than any other. You would appear to have such a specialist knowledge of BA cabin crew terms, conditions and agreements that it would surely guarantee you a top score on Mastermind - with no passes!
Would it not be of more (professional) use for you to be on the pilot pages talking over things like the most appropriate moment to press autopilot or even how to get passengers from A to B with the cabin crew on strike? When the crew do go on strike, you'll probably have to make tea yourself and while pressing the "brew" button does require some skill, it is as easy as presing "autopilot". PM me, if you need further instructions.
Would it not be of more (professional) use for you to be on the pilot pages talking over things like the most appropriate moment to press autopilot or even how to get passengers from A to B with the cabin crew on strike? When the crew do go on strike, you'll probably have to make tea yourself and while pressing the "brew" button does require some skill, it is as easy as presing "autopilot". PM me, if you need further instructions.
Last edited by miche2; 31st Dec 2006 at 09:52.
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Cargo only?
Just had a thought. If and when the cabin crew do go on strike, will the aircraft continue to operate with just cargo in the hold and thus potentially still make some money?
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Unlikely, BA 'management' aren't that clever.
I agree that it would sense, even if not a profit, to keep regular contracts sweet, and maybe even pick up some extra work, but I refer my friend to the answer at the top
I agree that it would sense, even if not a profit, to keep regular contracts sweet, and maybe even pick up some extra work, but I refer my friend to the answer at the top
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Amicus Member
Hi guys, I'm an Amicus member of crew at LGW SF. I totally agree with the strike, I would strike for the breakfast allowance at LGW alone. I know that a few of my colleagues at LGW are also Amicus members and in favour of striking however, we have not been part of the ballot process. Does this mean that we don't have the right to strike and if we do, do we have a leg to stand on as it seems to be a BASSA thing? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Tofster, i am afraid you cannot skrike until your union has balloted for it. If you do, it iwll be considered as an illegal strike and thus could lose your job. Sad, but true.
I only asked about the cargo thing as earlier this year when we were short of crew, I believe aircarft were sent out empty but packed full of cargo and thus were worth while sending there and back. Obviously, it would only be worth while to some destinations.
I only asked about the cargo thing as earlier this year when we were short of crew, I believe aircarft were sent out empty but packed full of cargo and thus were worth while sending there and back. Obviously, it would only be worth while to some destinations.
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I think that apart from the many issues that are being balloted on, the overriding dissatisfaction is with the ways our (new) management seem to work.
Come in - slash slash slash - obtain massive goody bag of £££ - leave.
We never make enough profits (despite being one of the most profitable airlines in the world). We are never working hard enough. We are too expensive. This is all we ever hear.
Carnage, i totally agree with a lot you say about BASSA (this despite being a BASSA member). They are somewhat inflexible and militant and i wouldn't like to be an employer having to deal with them.
Saying that, even AMICUS have publicly stated that the BA management are treating them like crap and that more 'formal' discussions (read notification of ballot) will need to take place if BA isn't more forthcoming.
I'm not going to get into discussions about the number of Pursers we have (yes, we do have too many of the 747) or the loss of a crew member post 2001 etc. I believe these are all side issues.
The real issue (for me personally) is EG300 and our inept management. Management that don't seem to be able to see further than their next bonus/profit share.
EG300 is a farce. How can an operation under general anaesthetic NOT be discounted under EG300??? I had my appendix out 3 months ago and was off ten days. At my Attendance Review Interview I was told I had 'triggered an occassion' because they only 'discount' 48 hours after a general anaesthetic. Are they saying I should be back flying after 48 hours of having my appendix taken out??
I believe that BA and BASSA should engage an Independent Arbitrator.
Come in - slash slash slash - obtain massive goody bag of £££ - leave.
We never make enough profits (despite being one of the most profitable airlines in the world). We are never working hard enough. We are too expensive. This is all we ever hear.
Carnage, i totally agree with a lot you say about BASSA (this despite being a BASSA member). They are somewhat inflexible and militant and i wouldn't like to be an employer having to deal with them.
Saying that, even AMICUS have publicly stated that the BA management are treating them like crap and that more 'formal' discussions (read notification of ballot) will need to take place if BA isn't more forthcoming.
I'm not going to get into discussions about the number of Pursers we have (yes, we do have too many of the 747) or the loss of a crew member post 2001 etc. I believe these are all side issues.
The real issue (for me personally) is EG300 and our inept management. Management that don't seem to be able to see further than their next bonus/profit share.
EG300 is a farce. How can an operation under general anaesthetic NOT be discounted under EG300??? I had my appendix out 3 months ago and was off ten days. At my Attendance Review Interview I was told I had 'triggered an occassion' because they only 'discount' 48 hours after a general anaesthetic. Are they saying I should be back flying after 48 hours of having my appendix taken out??
I believe that BA and BASSA should engage an Independent Arbitrator.
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Carnage Matey, despite your disdain - verging on bitterness - towards cabin crews, you seem to spend more time on this section of the forum than any other. You would appear to have such a specialist knowledge of BA cabin crew terms, conditions and agreements that it would surely guarantee you a top score on Mastermind - with no passes!
Would it not be of more (professional) use for you to be on the pilot pages talking over things like the most appropriate moment to press autopilot or even how to get passengers from A to B with the cabin crew on strike? When the crew do go on strike, you'll probably have to make tea yourself and while pressing the "brew" button does require some skill, it is as easy as presing "autopilot". PM me, if you need further instructions.
Would it not be of more (professional) use for you to be on the pilot pages talking over things like the most appropriate moment to press autopilot or even how to get passengers from A to B with the cabin crew on strike? When the crew do go on strike, you'll probably have to make tea yourself and while pressing the "brew" button does require some skill, it is as easy as presing "autopilot". PM me, if you need further instructions.
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I would urge you to join us as the more the better. Both WLITS and myself have started a thread asking for clarifications. The response I got from Mike-somebody has left me without words.
(BTW WLITS I have posted my reply to mr Mike on your thread)
And no, until Amicus ballot us, Amicus members cannot do anything "legal".
It looks like if a strike is going to happen I will already be on mat. leave, which is a shame, for Mike-somebody's WORDS alone I feel like striking, but not the silent way, the proper way like Alitalia, AirOne, Volare, Meridiana and AirEurope used to do in Italy - going in the streets making life difficult for those people who really COUNT.
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I would love to be spanked right now, but I have to disagree.....he's away on a long trip....I just happen to sit in the F/D VERY often, and I do revise for his sims with him (I am just a veeeeeery helpful, understanding girl!!) 
I'll have to get naughty!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hahahahaha! Serious but naughty people are what we need! Even the longest doubles (fix-linked even
) feel shorter than some boring MAN there& back's when you work with seriously naughty people on both sides of the bullet-proof door!! Good, healthy naughtiness is always welcome on any one of my flights, and we always end up having a laugh (even when flying with some sort of mummies!!)
These IR issues have been spoiling my otheriwse reasonably good mood, so it was time for a break - thanks CM for giving me the opportunity to have a laugh! On that note....Tea anyone? Oh wait, I have to look up in my manual how to operate the Brew switch first
FBW x
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