BA - Common Issues
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BA MEETING 7th DECEMBER (UPDATED 8th DECEMBER) Thursday, December 07, 2006
Today BASSA/T&GWU held an important meeting with our side being led by Steve Hart our Regional Secretary and the company led by David LeBrecht Head of Industrial Relations. At the start of the meeting Steve Hart confirmed his conversation with Amicus officials the previous evening, that they too shared all the same issues as BASSA.
The meeting was held in an attempt to resolve our many differences and the serious breakdown of our industrial realtionship with BA. We went into the meeting with open minds but we have to report back to you now that if we had any doubts about the need for an industrial ballot then BA's manner and the words they uttered, have completely obliterated any lingering doubt.
In this meeting Mr LeBrecht accused BASSA reps of 'not representing the membership' and of 'winding up the crews'. He then claimed that you were all 'happy and delivering excellent cabin service'. We responded that you were not happy, but angry, frustrated and determined. He patronisingly disagreed.
All this perfectly illustrates what is the fundamental problem in the relationship between the TUs and BA Industrial Relations. To accuse us of not representing you, when we hear from you everyday how the crew are treated by many elements of BA management is an insult. It is BA who are out of touch with their workforce, not us.
It may interest you to know that since the orange flyer landed on your doormats, over 100 non new entrant crew have joined BASSA determined not to miss our ballot - also over 1000 have contacted us with support and ensuring their correct addresses are logged by us. These facts alone show that we are doing something right in fighting YOUR corner.
BA then put some issues of their own on the table, their wish list included, wait for it - they now want all cabin crew to go on hourly pay! That says it all - the ballot remains on course.
Other quotes from BA (Mr LeBrecht)
"I feel sorry for you as a Trade Union as perserving and improving conditions within British Airways is no longer a realistic expectation"
"If the employer was that good you wouldn't exist"
"It's unrealistic for crew to expect promotion" said in relation to PSR switch upper deck
"We, (BA), will not tolerate a position where a Trade Union says NO"
"I don't know why we're here....these discussions are a sham"...this was his opening gambit
"Sometimes you may not like the answer...we are still going to do it"
BA then wanted to discuss their own agenda:
Disruption agreement and operational alleviations
Hourly rate
Holiday pay (lack of)
IFS business plan
NSP seating
In conclusion, not only did BA refuse to address any of our issues they introduced some extra items of their own including the very unpopular and already rejected hourly flying pay instead of allowances.
Even the most hardened rep was quite shocked at BAs complete lack of interest in addressing the issues we have between us. Then to introduce an item that they know is universally unpopular with Cabin Crew was beyond belief.
I think by now, if you read Mr Lebrechts quotes, you will be left in no doubt how BA regards your future. His words have certainly bought home to us how vital it is WE stand united and firm against BAs plans.
YOUR support has been over-whelming so far.
YOU are giving us the strength to take the fight to the company. KEEP IT UP!
Today BASSA/T&GWU held an important meeting with our side being led by Steve Hart our Regional Secretary and the company led by David LeBrecht Head of Industrial Relations. At the start of the meeting Steve Hart confirmed his conversation with Amicus officials the previous evening, that they too shared all the same issues as BASSA.
The meeting was held in an attempt to resolve our many differences and the serious breakdown of our industrial realtionship with BA. We went into the meeting with open minds but we have to report back to you now that if we had any doubts about the need for an industrial ballot then BA's manner and the words they uttered, have completely obliterated any lingering doubt.
In this meeting Mr LeBrecht accused BASSA reps of 'not representing the membership' and of 'winding up the crews'. He then claimed that you were all 'happy and delivering excellent cabin service'. We responded that you were not happy, but angry, frustrated and determined. He patronisingly disagreed.
All this perfectly illustrates what is the fundamental problem in the relationship between the TUs and BA Industrial Relations. To accuse us of not representing you, when we hear from you everyday how the crew are treated by many elements of BA management is an insult. It is BA who are out of touch with their workforce, not us.
It may interest you to know that since the orange flyer landed on your doormats, over 100 non new entrant crew have joined BASSA determined not to miss our ballot - also over 1000 have contacted us with support and ensuring their correct addresses are logged by us. These facts alone show that we are doing something right in fighting YOUR corner.
BA then put some issues of their own on the table, their wish list included, wait for it - they now want all cabin crew to go on hourly pay! That says it all - the ballot remains on course.
Other quotes from BA (Mr LeBrecht)
"I feel sorry for you as a Trade Union as perserving and improving conditions within British Airways is no longer a realistic expectation"
"If the employer was that good you wouldn't exist"
"It's unrealistic for crew to expect promotion" said in relation to PSR switch upper deck
"We, (BA), will not tolerate a position where a Trade Union says NO"
"I don't know why we're here....these discussions are a sham"...this was his opening gambit
"Sometimes you may not like the answer...we are still going to do it"
BA then wanted to discuss their own agenda:
Disruption agreement and operational alleviations
Hourly rate
Holiday pay (lack of)
IFS business plan
NSP seating
In conclusion, not only did BA refuse to address any of our issues they introduced some extra items of their own including the very unpopular and already rejected hourly flying pay instead of allowances.
Even the most hardened rep was quite shocked at BAs complete lack of interest in addressing the issues we have between us. Then to introduce an item that they know is universally unpopular with Cabin Crew was beyond belief.
I think by now, if you read Mr Lebrechts quotes, you will be left in no doubt how BA regards your future. His words have certainly bought home to us how vital it is WE stand united and firm against BAs plans.
YOUR support has been over-whelming so far.
YOU are giving us the strength to take the fight to the company. KEEP IT UP!
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Well said twisted!! We need to be united here. As the very first post on this thread says, The moderators will forgive me for opening a new thread, but I cannot stand the fact that BA love us to feel like two (or more) companies!.
Glamgirl, I understand why you're wondering why we are making a fuss over losing a purser off the 747, one of the reasons is that promotion on our fleet comes around once in a blue moon (with my date of joining, I am looking at 10-15 years), so losing a purser off that aircraft would leave less proportion of pursers needed on that fleet, so would prob have to wait for another 5 years on top of that.
I know that the CSD position is seen as a none working position, I can count on one hand (when we still operated all 9 routes at LGW) the CSD's that didn't help with the club or W/T service, esp when we operated that flying caravan that is the 3 class!!!
Don't forget, LHR EF, LHR WW and us guys at LGW WW were not actually balloted by any unions to go on strike over the t&c's now being endured by SF LGW. If a balloted had been actioned, I personally believe that we would have voted in favour of action.
I love my job and I enjoy my current t&c's as it allows me to live my life the way I am happy with financially and I would like to carry in doing this. If things change, I will have to reconsider doing the job I enjoy so much.
Glamgirl, I understand why you're wondering why we are making a fuss over losing a purser off the 747, one of the reasons is that promotion on our fleet comes around once in a blue moon (with my date of joining, I am looking at 10-15 years), so losing a purser off that aircraft would leave less proportion of pursers needed on that fleet, so would prob have to wait for another 5 years on top of that.
I know that the CSD position is seen as a none working position, I can count on one hand (when we still operated all 9 routes at LGW) the CSD's that didn't help with the club or W/T service, esp when we operated that flying caravan that is the 3 class!!!
Don't forget, LHR EF, LHR WW and us guys at LGW WW were not actually balloted by any unions to go on strike over the t&c's now being endured by SF LGW. If a balloted had been actioned, I personally believe that we would have voted in favour of action.
I love my job and I enjoy my current t&c's as it allows me to live my life the way I am happy with financially and I would like to carry in doing this. If things change, I will have to reconsider doing the job I enjoy so much.
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I think the issue at hand at the moment is that we have two very inflexible, quite arrogant parties at both ends. BA management at one, BASSA at the other.
Now I AM a BASSA member and will be voting YES to support industrial action. This is only based on the three issues currently being balloted on: Pensions, merging of old/new payscales, Purser removal and changes to EG300.
However, something that does annoy me with BASSA is the melo-dramatics that they go on with. The wording in their emails, the dramatic text messages they send. I mean, sound professional for gods sake. Please DO keep us updated with the facts. But please stop the emails and text messages that sound like they were written by the scriptwriters of 'Days of our lives'. I think the quotes mentioned by the IR manager which BASSA reproduced are really bad. But I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall and witnessed what came out of the mouths of BOTH parties.
I just want to know the facts.....in full. I want to know exactly what BASSA proposed, exactly what BA proposed, what BASSA said they were prepared to accept and what BA said they are prepared to accept.
I also think it would be ignorant of BASSA to pretend that EVERYONE is happy with the status quo, ie our t&c's. There is a growing call (particularly on Worldwide) for the hourly rate to be looked at again and some more flexible ways of rostering/bidding/swapping our trips which would fundamentally change the way days off etc are generated.
I think BA's next step in this issue will be to turn groups of the cabin crew community against each other to fragment any industrial action. For example, do a deal with those on the new contract and shaft those on the old contract. Or, come up with a deal that will give a huge benefit to one of the fleets but a huge disadvantage to another.
Now I AM a BASSA member and will be voting YES to support industrial action. This is only based on the three issues currently being balloted on: Pensions, merging of old/new payscales, Purser removal and changes to EG300.
However, something that does annoy me with BASSA is the melo-dramatics that they go on with. The wording in their emails, the dramatic text messages they send. I mean, sound professional for gods sake. Please DO keep us updated with the facts. But please stop the emails and text messages that sound like they were written by the scriptwriters of 'Days of our lives'. I think the quotes mentioned by the IR manager which BASSA reproduced are really bad. But I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall and witnessed what came out of the mouths of BOTH parties.
I just want to know the facts.....in full. I want to know exactly what BASSA proposed, exactly what BA proposed, what BASSA said they were prepared to accept and what BA said they are prepared to accept.
I also think it would be ignorant of BASSA to pretend that EVERYONE is happy with the status quo, ie our t&c's. There is a growing call (particularly on Worldwide) for the hourly rate to be looked at again and some more flexible ways of rostering/bidding/swapping our trips which would fundamentally change the way days off etc are generated.
I think BA's next step in this issue will be to turn groups of the cabin crew community against each other to fragment any industrial action. For example, do a deal with those on the new contract and shaft those on the old contract. Or, come up with a deal that will give a huge benefit to one of the fleets but a huge disadvantage to another.
Last edited by keeperboy; 9th Dec 2006 at 12:11. Reason: punctuation
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Hi guys....i dropped my application for BASSA into the boxes opposite crew check out in Jubilee house a while ago but still haven't heard anything...I don't want to simply apply again as I may end up confusing some1! lol!
Does any1 have a number I can call for their lil' LGW office as I don't rele wanna go in on my day off and my check in times r wen they're closed!!!
Cheers guys.
Paxy XXX
Does any1 have a number I can call for their lil' LGW office as I don't rele wanna go in on my day off and my check in times r wen they're closed!!!
Cheers guys.
Paxy XXX
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Keeperboy, I hear what you're saying about the non-ballot of issues with SFLGW, and thanks for your intented support, much appreciated. It's just that BASSA at LHR surely could've tried helping us a bit more... especially when it comes to the NSP issue...Maybe I'm naive, but I thought that the union would support both bases, and not just where they themselves are based, if that makes sense.
I've always been on the hourly rate, and that in principle doesn't bug me, what does is different crew get different pay for doing the same job (LHR allowances/LGW hourly pay). Isn't there some law against this now? Before I get myself a reputation of being a miseryguts, I'd like to add that it feels great sitting down route, having a glass (or more) of wine and getting paid for it (it's only enough for a small glass per hour, but still...)
At least it's not all as bad as some other airlines, but that's another thread altogether
I've always been on the hourly rate, and that in principle doesn't bug me, what does is different crew get different pay for doing the same job (LHR allowances/LGW hourly pay). Isn't there some law against this now? Before I get myself a reputation of being a miseryguts, I'd like to add that it feels great sitting down route, having a glass (or more) of wine and getting paid for it (it's only enough for a small glass per hour, but still...)
At least it's not all as bad as some other airlines, but that's another thread altogether
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Open Your Eyes!!!!
Well, here goes, i haven't been on here for a while but i have been keeping up to date with things and i was determined to let the proverbial dust settle before i got on a soap box that really i didn't have any right to jump on.
i've now been with ba for 6 months, in fact wlits trained me (and an excellent job he did to!!) and fbw i think as well (is that right wlits?) i did my first lh the other day (my god i love it!!), so i can't say if it will make a change in my £££, however at my interview i was told a would take home £500 min flight pay.
i came from another airline so i know that bar money and flight pay can take months to kick in, but i have to say that i have realised £500 more or less for the last 3 months so when people keep saying the money is pap for new starters then to be honest i haven't really found that, if you are motivated enough to bother to really get to grips with carmen and they way she works you can get what you want right from the start.
for those of you that have been here for a while i understand that you think things are rubbish here, but the reality of the situation is that they are worse than before but better than anywhere else, this 3 crew moan? i think it works fine, there's no meal service in et and there's triggers for high club loads (which i think need a bit of adjustment) so really it just means that whilst you are at work you have to earn your money rather than floatin around getting in each others way and spending half the flight eating you way into another dress size or reading that latest gossip column. i can honestly say that i've never had it so easy, but conversly because of the cut backs, those of you who have been here a while have never worked so hard!
this isn't a dig at the veterans of dan air, city flyer, eog or just ba for a few years, but i must say that all it looks like a people complaining about actually working whilst at work. sorry guys.
the strike, i think that people should get over this whole lhr/lgw divide, we have more fun, they have more money, the new lhr xfers have said as much, sorry if any lhr guys disagree. but we are one company, this isn't a playground so lets stop bickering between ourselves and stand up to the bullies, i think that ba are relying on the fact that a huge majority of new entrants at lgw aren't in the union and a large section of the lgw community aren't strike minded. everyone needs to join a union and be counted. if someone isn't happy we have to support them, it's as simple as that.
lhr i'm sorry but wake up and smell the coffee, you are overpaid for what you do, and there's too many of you, it would be great to keep everything the way it used to be but welcome to the real world, one that changes every day. the company has had to change and we've had to follow suit but for a long term viable future we need to do more. the hourly rate? so you'd loose money but do you really think that what you do is worth all that cash? i know nurses and teachers that earn less than some of you guys, we are technically an unskilled service workforce, there isn't anyone in that sector that get's anything like what we get.
the world has changed, lgw might not be the blueprint for the future at lhr but there's lots of things that may well be, lgw is the future? quite possibly, the finance of the company dictates that we do it cheaper so why not make us do more? £££, pensions, psr on the upper deck, non of it affects me at the moment but i go to work every day with people whom hold it very dear so i will stand with them and will do whatever is asked of me.
i'm genuinly sorry if people don't like what a new starter with a mouth has to say, and i hope people don't take offence, i love my job, my choices and my work mates, i'm happy with my pay and really, i'm happy with my roster, maybe i'm too easily pleased but some are too easily p**sed off!!
love you guys!
i've now been with ba for 6 months, in fact wlits trained me (and an excellent job he did to!!) and fbw i think as well (is that right wlits?) i did my first lh the other day (my god i love it!!), so i can't say if it will make a change in my £££, however at my interview i was told a would take home £500 min flight pay.
i came from another airline so i know that bar money and flight pay can take months to kick in, but i have to say that i have realised £500 more or less for the last 3 months so when people keep saying the money is pap for new starters then to be honest i haven't really found that, if you are motivated enough to bother to really get to grips with carmen and they way she works you can get what you want right from the start.
for those of you that have been here for a while i understand that you think things are rubbish here, but the reality of the situation is that they are worse than before but better than anywhere else, this 3 crew moan? i think it works fine, there's no meal service in et and there's triggers for high club loads (which i think need a bit of adjustment) so really it just means that whilst you are at work you have to earn your money rather than floatin around getting in each others way and spending half the flight eating you way into another dress size or reading that latest gossip column. i can honestly say that i've never had it so easy, but conversly because of the cut backs, those of you who have been here a while have never worked so hard!
this isn't a dig at the veterans of dan air, city flyer, eog or just ba for a few years, but i must say that all it looks like a people complaining about actually working whilst at work. sorry guys.
the strike, i think that people should get over this whole lhr/lgw divide, we have more fun, they have more money, the new lhr xfers have said as much, sorry if any lhr guys disagree. but we are one company, this isn't a playground so lets stop bickering between ourselves and stand up to the bullies, i think that ba are relying on the fact that a huge majority of new entrants at lgw aren't in the union and a large section of the lgw community aren't strike minded. everyone needs to join a union and be counted. if someone isn't happy we have to support them, it's as simple as that.
lhr i'm sorry but wake up and smell the coffee, you are overpaid for what you do, and there's too many of you, it would be great to keep everything the way it used to be but welcome to the real world, one that changes every day. the company has had to change and we've had to follow suit but for a long term viable future we need to do more. the hourly rate? so you'd loose money but do you really think that what you do is worth all that cash? i know nurses and teachers that earn less than some of you guys, we are technically an unskilled service workforce, there isn't anyone in that sector that get's anything like what we get.
the world has changed, lgw might not be the blueprint for the future at lhr but there's lots of things that may well be, lgw is the future? quite possibly, the finance of the company dictates that we do it cheaper so why not make us do more? £££, pensions, psr on the upper deck, non of it affects me at the moment but i go to work every day with people whom hold it very dear so i will stand with them and will do whatever is asked of me.
i'm genuinly sorry if people don't like what a new starter with a mouth has to say, and i hope people don't take offence, i love my job, my choices and my work mates, i'm happy with my pay and really, i'm happy with my roster, maybe i'm too easily pleased but some are too easily p**sed off!!
love you guys!
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BAnewboi, I hear what you are saying.
But, imagine at LGW SF if next week BA turned around and said 'we are changing the hourly rate to £1.25 an hour, and taking away two of your days off per month'. Perhaps that put things into perspective. That would be something YOU signed up for that was being changed without any negotiation.
Like you, I also left an airline with crap conditions (bmi) to join BA some years ago.
The reason thousands of crew leave airlines like bmi, virgin, easyjet, ryanair etc to join BA is because of the working environment, pay and terms & conditions. I think I could literally count on one hand the number of crew that have left BA mainline to join any of the afore mentioned airlines.
For once there seemed an airline where terms, conditions and pay were decent. I'm on the new contract, LHR WW and yeah the pay is good but not out of this world. I too, thought like you. WOW! Why are these people complaining???? They have it MADE!
I have to be honest. I am a different person at BA. When I was at BMI I felt no loyalty whatsoever to the company. I went to work with no motivation, no enthusiasm. I'm sure that came across in my interaction with passengers at BMI. At BA, I am happy to go to work. I am happy with the money I earn. I am happy with the way I am treated. I put in 110% and I think this comes across in the way I am in the cabin.
In a little way, I like to think that my attitude might contribute in a small way to the industry record profits we have made. £500M last year.
This is all until very recently.
There are so many issues Banewboi, and while few people are concerned by all/many of them, there is usually one sticking point for everyone.
For me personally, I am not really bothered with the pension issue or the UD Purser issue. The issue I have with BA is EG300. After hefty negotiations, BASSA and BA came to an agreement on a process for managing attendance. After that has been signed of and implemented, BA has just fundamentally changed it.
Now, EG300 hasn't been something that has (luckily) had any impact on me so far. But I thing the issue at hand for me is, if BA think they can come to an 'agreement' with their workers and unions, and then change them at their will, what will be next? The way our allowences are generated? The way our rest is calculated?
You see, you knew exactly what you signed up for when you joined BA. And so did I. It's not that I am asking for any more than what I have. I would also certainly look at any ideas that BA have for cost saving that would provide both a benefit to the company and the crew.
But with our new managers, the problem seems to be they don't understand the notion of 'give and take' or 'negotiation'. It just seems 'take take take'.
There are around 10,000 crew at LHR. Most of us belong to BASSA. And most of us are keen to protect what we signed up for. And with the current environment of 'non negotiation' from BA, there seems few other options available to us.
But, imagine at LGW SF if next week BA turned around and said 'we are changing the hourly rate to £1.25 an hour, and taking away two of your days off per month'. Perhaps that put things into perspective. That would be something YOU signed up for that was being changed without any negotiation.
Like you, I also left an airline with crap conditions (bmi) to join BA some years ago.
The reason thousands of crew leave airlines like bmi, virgin, easyjet, ryanair etc to join BA is because of the working environment, pay and terms & conditions. I think I could literally count on one hand the number of crew that have left BA mainline to join any of the afore mentioned airlines.
For once there seemed an airline where terms, conditions and pay were decent. I'm on the new contract, LHR WW and yeah the pay is good but not out of this world. I too, thought like you. WOW! Why are these people complaining???? They have it MADE!
I have to be honest. I am a different person at BA. When I was at BMI I felt no loyalty whatsoever to the company. I went to work with no motivation, no enthusiasm. I'm sure that came across in my interaction with passengers at BMI. At BA, I am happy to go to work. I am happy with the money I earn. I am happy with the way I am treated. I put in 110% and I think this comes across in the way I am in the cabin.
In a little way, I like to think that my attitude might contribute in a small way to the industry record profits we have made. £500M last year.
This is all until very recently.
There are so many issues Banewboi, and while few people are concerned by all/many of them, there is usually one sticking point for everyone.
For me personally, I am not really bothered with the pension issue or the UD Purser issue. The issue I have with BA is EG300. After hefty negotiations, BASSA and BA came to an agreement on a process for managing attendance. After that has been signed of and implemented, BA has just fundamentally changed it.
Now, EG300 hasn't been something that has (luckily) had any impact on me so far. But I thing the issue at hand for me is, if BA think they can come to an 'agreement' with their workers and unions, and then change them at their will, what will be next? The way our allowences are generated? The way our rest is calculated?
You see, you knew exactly what you signed up for when you joined BA. And so did I. It's not that I am asking for any more than what I have. I would also certainly look at any ideas that BA have for cost saving that would provide both a benefit to the company and the crew.
But with our new managers, the problem seems to be they don't understand the notion of 'give and take' or 'negotiation'. It just seems 'take take take'.
There are around 10,000 crew at LHR. Most of us belong to BASSA. And most of us are keen to protect what we signed up for. And with the current environment of 'non negotiation' from BA, there seems few other options available to us.
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I will support any strike that the union ballot's over purely out of loyalty and the desire to make things better but before a strike is called i think people must realise is that when you negotiate everybody gains something but everyone loses something aswell and i think many are unwilling to compromise.
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Can i just say that us pilots are more than a little baffled at BASSA's timing and thinking on this ballot. Strike action normally has a long prior negotiating history and as far as we can tell this all came from a show of hands at a meeting (bound to be the most militant crew). I believ BASSA have told you that pensions are involved, i dont think this can be the case Negotiations are not complete and you cannot legally ballot until a failiure to agree, which has definately not happened yet (that said if and when it does we'll see you on the picket line)
I've just picked these from the first BASSA newsletter thingy from earlier. With the reasons why most of the nigels think its a bit quick to ballot
If this is true about the upperdeck purser then fine, but i havent seen anything apart from from BASSA that BA have imposed this. That said, long term, do we really need 5 supervisory crew on the 747? I think the upper deck purser is the wrong one to go myself. But if the promotional prospects were lost i think some form of extra allowance/training for upper deck crew would be good. As BASSA agreed to go to CSM and Psr at LGW on the 777 it does make it harder to justify the extra Psr ar LHR.
As for the CSD bit this is classic scaremongering. BA have never suggested this and ts certainly not a reason to strike now.
Great spelling. But as i understand it the Location and some of the standards element of your hotel agreement was negotiated away a few years ago. Hence you're in Midrand we're in Sandton in JNB. And Club Quarters/ Grand Hyatt in SFO. BA havent made moves elsewhere as it is cheaper to keep us together. If your hotel agreement already allows this how can you strike now?
Well then noone will take it and BA wont lose any of the more senior crew, Thats more BA's problem than BASSA's, were not talking compulsory redundancies here.
Well the talk of NRT is utter rubbish, there is no shorter routing we already go the quickest way. The other 2, well T5 will result in shorter report times, so i dare say some flights will become nightstops and LR payments will be reduced, same applies to us(we'll most likely lose 4th man to HKG and GRU amongst others). But they can only reduce the trip length if its in your industrial agreement already (SFO will be similar duty day in T5 to SEA now), nowhere has anyone suggested changes there. So can you really strike about doing something thats already in your agreements?
Old/New pay rates : Very good aim but why now? Its never been mentioned before.
EG300 : With you 100%
By bringing so many issues to the table at once BASSA have just given WW an excellent opportunity to try and break the union, this is clearly now the plan (I dont think it was before the Ballot was announced) and thats why he's brought in other issues such as the hourly rate etc and started the dirty war in negotiations. By bringing so many items in you have to decide which ones will you come back to work for, because you cant win on them all.
The other thing is, will this unite the crew? I cant see Gatwick striking for these reasons at all (it would be illegal for most of them : secondary action) The SH crew wont strike for LH issues and vice versa, I suspect thats the reason New/Old contract was included otherwise its pretty much all LH. I suspect most of the European crew wont strike and I suspect BA will be prepared to let it run a few days whilst crew lose money/get disrupted and start trickling back to work. Theres high stakes here.
Good luck whatever is decided.
I've just picked these from the first BASSA newsletter thingy from earlier. With the reasons why most of the nigels think its a bit quick to ballot
1) As of Feb 1st the upperdeck Psr is gone. The ultimate goal is
have a 2 more gone by the end of 2007 leaving 1 CSD & 1 Psr on
longhaul aircraft. The CSD role is also being looked at. Do we need one??
have a 2 more gone by the end of 2007 leaving 1 CSD & 1 Psr on
longhaul aircraft. The CSD role is also being looked at. Do we need one??
As for the CSD bit this is classic scaremongering. BA have never suggested this and ts certainly not a reason to strike now.
3) SFG been told BA can no longer afford downtown hotels. Airport
hotels are being sort.
hotels are being sort.
6) No big figures for severance. Statutory Minimum.
7) T5 report time 1hr 10 before dept. Arrival 30mins.
This will take SFO, LAX & NRT (new routing) out of LR and make them
night stops.
This will take SFO, LAX & NRT (new routing) out of LR and make them
night stops.
Old/New pay rates : Very good aim but why now? Its never been mentioned before.
EG300 : With you 100%
By bringing so many issues to the table at once BASSA have just given WW an excellent opportunity to try and break the union, this is clearly now the plan (I dont think it was before the Ballot was announced) and thats why he's brought in other issues such as the hourly rate etc and started the dirty war in negotiations. By bringing so many items in you have to decide which ones will you come back to work for, because you cant win on them all.
The other thing is, will this unite the crew? I cant see Gatwick striking for these reasons at all (it would be illegal for most of them : secondary action) The SH crew wont strike for LH issues and vice versa, I suspect thats the reason New/Old contract was included otherwise its pretty much all LH. I suspect most of the European crew wont strike and I suspect BA will be prepared to let it run a few days whilst crew lose money/get disrupted and start trickling back to work. Theres high stakes here.
Good luck whatever is decided.
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HotelMode you raise some really good points. many of which I have asked myself.
I think that BASSA is trying to throw as many 'issues' into the pot as possible to gain maximum support for the ballot. For example, the pension issue may only be of massive importance to those that have been in BA a bit longer than say 4 or 5 years. So, add the 'merging of new and old contracts' into the equation and you also have the backing of those with less than 4 or 5 years experience (obviously new contract).
BA have stated that they wish to remove a Purser. I do however (personally) support this position. As you have mentioned NO industry or company in 2006 can justify 5 'managers' for 10 'staff'.
What I have a problem with (on the BA side) is this: they have so many means of which to communicate with us. Our home address, ESS mail, crewlink etc etc. They could spell out every single issue that BASSA has said 'will happen' and give a black and white guarantee that those issues are not being discussed at the moment. And yet, so far anyway, BA chooses not to do this. Now in my eyes, this means one of two things. 1) BASSA is right. Or, 2) BA WANT a confrontation with the cabin crew to test their resolve and union support.
BA do things like propose the issue of an hourly rate, yet refuse to give us the figures per hour which can only raise the eybrow of the crew community. Again, I would support an hourly rate IF IT WAS THE RIGHT RATE. But without any figures it could be £1 p/h or £10 p/h. How are we meant to work out if it is a good deal or not? All we can rely on is BASSA's reccommendation.
Why not make a statement to crew that box payments, ETP, STP, 5 sector days etc are not in the pipeline (which are all things BASSA are claiming are). BA's silence on the issue really is quite deafening.
Saying that, I do really hope that some middle ground will be found. I hope the moderates from both BA and BASSA will come out of their holes and start some reasonable NEGOTIATION.
I believe that Willie is now concentrating on turning the various fleets/contracts within cabin crew against each other in order to ensure a total walk-out doesn't happen. For example, do a deal with those pn the new contract in terms of basic pay, yet introduce an hourly rate etc etc. As you mention, I think there will be many tricks up his sleeve.
I think that BASSA is trying to throw as many 'issues' into the pot as possible to gain maximum support for the ballot. For example, the pension issue may only be of massive importance to those that have been in BA a bit longer than say 4 or 5 years. So, add the 'merging of new and old contracts' into the equation and you also have the backing of those with less than 4 or 5 years experience (obviously new contract).
BA have stated that they wish to remove a Purser. I do however (personally) support this position. As you have mentioned NO industry or company in 2006 can justify 5 'managers' for 10 'staff'.
What I have a problem with (on the BA side) is this: they have so many means of which to communicate with us. Our home address, ESS mail, crewlink etc etc. They could spell out every single issue that BASSA has said 'will happen' and give a black and white guarantee that those issues are not being discussed at the moment. And yet, so far anyway, BA chooses not to do this. Now in my eyes, this means one of two things. 1) BASSA is right. Or, 2) BA WANT a confrontation with the cabin crew to test their resolve and union support.
BA do things like propose the issue of an hourly rate, yet refuse to give us the figures per hour which can only raise the eybrow of the crew community. Again, I would support an hourly rate IF IT WAS THE RIGHT RATE. But without any figures it could be £1 p/h or £10 p/h. How are we meant to work out if it is a good deal or not? All we can rely on is BASSA's reccommendation.
Why not make a statement to crew that box payments, ETP, STP, 5 sector days etc are not in the pipeline (which are all things BASSA are claiming are). BA's silence on the issue really is quite deafening.
Saying that, I do really hope that some middle ground will be found. I hope the moderates from both BA and BASSA will come out of their holes and start some reasonable NEGOTIATION.
I believe that Willie is now concentrating on turning the various fleets/contracts within cabin crew against each other in order to ensure a total walk-out doesn't happen. For example, do a deal with those pn the new contract in terms of basic pay, yet introduce an hourly rate etc etc. As you mention, I think there will be many tricks up his sleeve.
Last edited by keeperboy; 9th Dec 2006 at 15:44. Reason: add info
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Superboy....I agree with you. In the current times the only thing that would move LGW crew to strike is the proposed NAPS deal (which stinks) and considering that SFLGW is a very young fleet i.e. lots of people on probation, most of us on BARP anyway (which stank from day 1 but we had no other choice) and that the only people who are affected by the NAPS changes are the few ex-DANair birds 
and ex-CityFlyer/EOG who haven't left for LHR yet. So I would say that whether LGW strikes or not will make little difference to the outcome of the strike!
I have always said that we should be united as a whole workforce and that BA has worked to divide us, however we have always tried to feel closer to LHR and have always been kicked in the rear. It would be time for an effort from the other side, really.
As for the changes BA wants in the T&C for LHR I agree that some are not good. I do not like the idea of losing a purser on any LH aircraft (for LHR crew's info we in fact will have to fight to have 2 pursers on a 4-class 777 as we have only 1 at the moment and don't see that changing!) but at the same time 2 senior crew on a SH aircraft seem one too many in my opinion, especially when the one sitting at the front doesn't have a specific role in the service.
As for the hourly rate.....stinks but everyone else does it and BA know it! They'll try all the tricks possible, even making your life at work miserable if needed be. There are thousands of crew who do without meal payments etc and they do the same job in the same way as LHR crew. It's cheaper. This way they buy 2 cabin crew at the price of one (just like deals in tesco's). This is called good economy!
They will get that I am so sure. Strike or not. Sorry for being negative but unfortunately it's how it feels at the moment. Management stink, they were hired for a reason, which is not because they are nice and not even because they are stupid.
FBW
PS: banewboi I am not a line trainer.....sorry! I think I know who trained you though, I actually started at H6 just as she was due to have her baby
and ex-CityFlyer/EOG who haven't left for LHR yet. So I would say that whether LGW strikes or not will make little difference to the outcome of the strike!I have always said that we should be united as a whole workforce and that BA has worked to divide us, however we have always tried to feel closer to LHR and have always been kicked in the rear. It would be time for an effort from the other side, really.
As for the changes BA wants in the T&C for LHR I agree that some are not good. I do not like the idea of losing a purser on any LH aircraft (for LHR crew's info we in fact will have to fight to have 2 pursers on a 4-class 777 as we have only 1 at the moment and don't see that changing!) but at the same time 2 senior crew on a SH aircraft seem one too many in my opinion, especially when the one sitting at the front doesn't have a specific role in the service.
As for the hourly rate.....stinks but everyone else does it and BA know it! They'll try all the tricks possible, even making your life at work miserable if needed be. There are thousands of crew who do without meal payments etc and they do the same job in the same way as LHR crew. It's cheaper. This way they buy 2 cabin crew at the price of one (just like deals in tesco's). This is called good economy!
They will get that I am so sure. Strike or not. Sorry for being negative but unfortunately it's how it feels at the moment. Management stink, they were hired for a reason, which is not because they are nice and not even because they are stupid.
FBW
PS: banewboi I am not a line trainer.....sorry! I think I know who trained you though, I actually started at H6 just as she was due to have her baby
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If LHR crew want our support, get the union to sort out SFLGW ongoing issues first as a show of good faith. They are already ongoing and not proposed as all the issues detailed in the newletter are.
Our issues are: NSP entry (its been ongoing for years!) and Breakfast allowance for Longhaul (we're flying the routes, should be getting free breakfast, but not!).
Sort them, then you'll see some LGW support.
Not before
Our issues are: NSP entry (its been ongoing for years!) and Breakfast allowance for Longhaul (we're flying the routes, should be getting free breakfast, but not!).
Sort them, then you'll see some LGW support.
Not before
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I have not read all of this thread but I have read enough of it to understand what its all about. I dont post on this forum very often but on this subject I do have a few things to say.
Firstly, 'hotelmode', I have had a Cabin Crew manager on board my last two trips and both confirmed that the upper deck purser is set to go on feb 1st and that the intention is to have the crew down to one purser and one csd by the end of the year OR to remove the csd and have just two pursers.
They also both told me that there would therefore be 400 pursers surplus - some they hope, will accept severance, some would take part time, some would have to work as main crew but retaining their purser pay scale, and some would be promoted to csd. Now perhaps it is me thats nuts but do the last two options really make any sense at all? Pay someone to work down? what cost saving does that achieve? Pay to promote to a position that theyre considering taking away? hmmmm clever .
Meanwhile 40 new managers have been employed within IFS to 'manage' the pursers!!! you couldnt make it up could you?
Now to all of you at lgw who feel neglected and cant see any reason you should support this strike and vote yes:
I can only say that after 18 years at BA I know what will happen. If BA walk over us now and change terms and conditions at LHR I GUARANTEE that it wont end there - your terms arent great now - but do you honestly think that it ends there and that they wont come back to try and take even more away from you ?
Showing BA that we are divided now opens up the flood gates for the future and you will not be safe. BA will achieve what they want: Staff who do not come here for a career but who come to fly for 2 or 3 years and then leave... and people who are that temporary can be worked to death and walked all over with no concerns whatsover from their employers, so watch out.
Perhaps we at LHR didn't take enough notice of what was going on when your contracts and terms were being developed - do you think that not supporting us now makes things better? Two wrongs do not make a right, people make mistakes and learn from them.
Firstly, 'hotelmode', I have had a Cabin Crew manager on board my last two trips and both confirmed that the upper deck purser is set to go on feb 1st and that the intention is to have the crew down to one purser and one csd by the end of the year OR to remove the csd and have just two pursers.
They also both told me that there would therefore be 400 pursers surplus - some they hope, will accept severance, some would take part time, some would have to work as main crew but retaining their purser pay scale, and some would be promoted to csd. Now perhaps it is me thats nuts but do the last two options really make any sense at all? Pay someone to work down? what cost saving does that achieve? Pay to promote to a position that theyre considering taking away? hmmmm clever .
Meanwhile 40 new managers have been employed within IFS to 'manage' the pursers!!! you couldnt make it up could you?
Now to all of you at lgw who feel neglected and cant see any reason you should support this strike and vote yes:
I can only say that after 18 years at BA I know what will happen. If BA walk over us now and change terms and conditions at LHR I GUARANTEE that it wont end there - your terms arent great now - but do you honestly think that it ends there and that they wont come back to try and take even more away from you ?
Showing BA that we are divided now opens up the flood gates for the future and you will not be safe. BA will achieve what they want: Staff who do not come here for a career but who come to fly for 2 or 3 years and then leave... and people who are that temporary can be worked to death and walked all over with no concerns whatsover from their employers, so watch out.
Perhaps we at LHR didn't take enough notice of what was going on when your contracts and terms were being developed - do you think that not supporting us now makes things better? Two wrongs do not make a right, people make mistakes and learn from them.
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Well I dont think CCM's know any more than we do, they're notoriously unreliable. I just keep coming back to why now? Willy needs a industrial victory, the pension is clearly proving too difficult as they keep back peddling. BASSA are just stepping straight into the firing line. This way WW can attack a fairly divided workforce who historically will always look after number 1 when the chips are down (LGW is a case in point) maybe force a strike (and with EG300 it cant be a cowardly mass sickout this time) and probably win most of the important concessions whilst giving in on others. Saves the company cash and comes out looking all butch. Meanwhile he quietly complies on the pension which would have brought the whole company to a standstill for a long while preventing further trouble. You're a much easier target than the whole airline combined. BASSA's communications are so low on fact and so high on emotion I think youre talking yourselves down a very big hole.
Theres also a ridiculous amount of talk about things BA might try in the future, and not much about what the reality is NOW, all to get support for a strike. If BA really do propose 1 CSD and 1 Psr I'll be with you on the picket line but they haven't. Your reps are using a maybe, possibly threat of future demands to justify this strike, is that not a bit odd?? Its seems very much like the famous "45 minutes" for Saddams WMD to me a technique into scaring you into a made up conflict. Nobody talked about striking 3 months ago, it was only when the most militant turned up for a branch meeting and had a show of hands, and now they are doing their best Daily Mail impersonation to scare you into a fight that i suspect the reps are relishing.
Theres also a ridiculous amount of talk about things BA might try in the future, and not much about what the reality is NOW, all to get support for a strike. If BA really do propose 1 CSD and 1 Psr I'll be with you on the picket line but they haven't. Your reps are using a maybe, possibly threat of future demands to justify this strike, is that not a bit odd?? Its seems very much like the famous "45 minutes" for Saddams WMD to me a technique into scaring you into a made up conflict. Nobody talked about striking 3 months ago, it was only when the most militant turned up for a branch meeting and had a show of hands, and now they are doing their best Daily Mail impersonation to scare you into a fight that i suspect the reps are relishing.
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Youre right Hotel Boy. BASSA reps have nothing better to do than sit around formulating plans to strike. I mean look at how many strikes we've had this year. Oh no wait .... we havent had any.
Never mind, we can always just lie down and take the steamroller treatment, instead of attempting to stand up for ourselves hey?
Its very easy to sit in the "Ivory Flight Deck" and look down and pass judgement on the "little people" but we have been and still are in a struggle not to try and gain anything better but just to maintain what little we already have.
If that takes industrial action to achieve then so be it. Unfortunate as that might be, I cant see another avenue for us to choose.
Well done for perpetuating the cycle of division between flight and cabin crew!!!
Never mind, we can always just lie down and take the steamroller treatment, instead of attempting to stand up for ourselves hey?
Its very easy to sit in the "Ivory Flight Deck" and look down and pass judgement on the "little people" but we have been and still are in a struggle not to try and gain anything better but just to maintain what little we already have.
If that takes industrial action to achieve then so be it. Unfortunate as that might be, I cant see another avenue for us to choose.
Well done for perpetuating the cycle of division between flight and cabin crew!!!
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Well done for perpetuating the cycle of division between flight and cabin crew!!!
We're all being battered by BA at the moment all i'm suggesting is you take a CALM look at the issues. You're getting all over excited about what MAY happen in the future. Removing 1 Psr from 1 Aircraft Type is not "being steamrollered". If you actually read what i wrote i'm not saying BA's right but by lumping everything together BASSA may be playing into WW's plans and I dont think anyone wants that.
Some of the problem is that theres no option for BASSA to use other than strike. At least BALPA can work to rule for a while to help negotiations on their way.
And its a bit disingenuous to put things like "little people" in quotation marks when its not a quotation.
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Disappointed.
I like your post, you sound very reasonable.
It's also nice for someone from LHR to finally admit that you guys may have dropped the ball at LGW.
Your also correct that two wrongs don't make a right.
I absolutley argree.
Which is why it would be wrong of LHR not to stand by us when our T&C's are being erroded away RIGHT NOW (not just planned to happen like LHR).
You do mention that BA will not stop where it has with SFLGW. TOO RIGHT, they're trying to take our breakfast allowance as we type!
We need your support so we can keep it.
SFLGW is the benchmark BA is trying to get LHR to. If you let it get dragged down even further (it can't go much further!) then LHR will get dragged down even further.
Support SFLGW and we will support LHR.
I urge all LHR crew to speak to their reps to not let the bar slip any lower at SFLGW.
The worst of the damage has always been done. If you let it get worse you only make it worse on yourselves.
The other bone of contention I have is NSP entry.
Now I can see the reason that LHR crew would be pissed off with the removal of the UD PSR. The fact that it slows down promotion and transfer I can see is a big motivaor not to get rid of it, especially if promotion to PSR is up to 15 years on WW.
This is also the reason that EOG/EFLGW was not allowed into the NSP earlier as well.
If you look back a page or so you'll find a post from Yellowdog concerning an announcement concerning SFLGW entry into th NSP, which I had on very good authority was due at least last week.
Now of course the result of this would in theory have a similar effect to the removal of the UD PSR eventually down the line.
What really concerns me is....no announcement has happened.
If it's the LHR unions putting a spanner in the works AGAIN for WHATEVER REASON, LHR will be thin ice asking for SFLGW crew support in this fight.
Guess we'll see....
Let's hope it isn't the case for ALL BA crew sakes.
I like your post, you sound very reasonable.
It's also nice for someone from LHR to finally admit that you guys may have dropped the ball at LGW.
Your also correct that two wrongs don't make a right.
I absolutley argree.
Which is why it would be wrong of LHR not to stand by us when our T&C's are being erroded away RIGHT NOW (not just planned to happen like LHR).
You do mention that BA will not stop where it has with SFLGW. TOO RIGHT, they're trying to take our breakfast allowance as we type!
We need your support so we can keep it.
SFLGW is the benchmark BA is trying to get LHR to. If you let it get dragged down even further (it can't go much further!) then LHR will get dragged down even further.
Support SFLGW and we will support LHR.
I urge all LHR crew to speak to their reps to not let the bar slip any lower at SFLGW.
The worst of the damage has always been done. If you let it get worse you only make it worse on yourselves.
The other bone of contention I have is NSP entry.
Now I can see the reason that LHR crew would be pissed off with the removal of the UD PSR. The fact that it slows down promotion and transfer I can see is a big motivaor not to get rid of it, especially if promotion to PSR is up to 15 years on WW.
This is also the reason that EOG/EFLGW was not allowed into the NSP earlier as well.
If you look back a page or so you'll find a post from Yellowdog concerning an announcement concerning SFLGW entry into th NSP, which I had on very good authority was due at least last week.
Now of course the result of this would in theory have a similar effect to the removal of the UD PSR eventually down the line.
What really concerns me is....no announcement has happened.
If it's the LHR unions putting a spanner in the works AGAIN for WHATEVER REASON, LHR will be thin ice asking for SFLGW crew support in this fight.
Guess we'll see....
Let's hope it isn't the case for ALL BA crew sakes.
Last edited by WeLieInTheShadows; 10th Dec 2006 at 23:15.
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Firstly I didnt say anything about you being for or against anyone. But you do seem hell bent on ensuring a constant theme of them and us.
Secondly this ballot for strike isnt just about one item (the removal of a PSR from the upper deck). It also includes, among others, the following items :
Breakdown in industrial relations
Pensions
Application of EG300
Joining of Main Crew new starter rates to old rates
Purser Junior swap
Fixed links
'Preferred seller'
Man Base closure
900 hours
Downroute report times
So its not just one sticking point as far as the cabin crew are concerned.
I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.
As for your last remark, about my supposed grammatical error? Quotation marks may also be used to set off specific terms or words and not just direct or indirect quotations. And for reference, the word disingenuous, infers insincerity. And that's just plain rubbish!
As a footnote, I am not at all naive when it comes to office politics. I am sure there are plenty of things that go on behind closed doors that we do not hear about. I assure you that I am not one to blindly follow what the union says nor what the company states.
However, based on my own personal experience of both sides in this conflict, I have to say I agree with the current stance of BASSA. If we do not stand up now, where does it end? Complete disregard for our current terms and conditions? Destruction of any future ones?
I hope not and as I said earlier time will tell.
Secondly this ballot for strike isnt just about one item (the removal of a PSR from the upper deck). It also includes, among others, the following items :
Breakdown in industrial relations
Pensions
Application of EG300
Joining of Main Crew new starter rates to old rates
Purser Junior swap
Fixed links
'Preferred seller'
Man Base closure
900 hours
Downroute report times
So its not just one sticking point as far as the cabin crew are concerned.
I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.
As for your last remark, about my supposed grammatical error? Quotation marks may also be used to set off specific terms or words and not just direct or indirect quotations. And for reference, the word disingenuous, infers insincerity. And that's just plain rubbish!
As a footnote, I am not at all naive when it comes to office politics. I am sure there are plenty of things that go on behind closed doors that we do not hear about. I assure you that I am not one to blindly follow what the union says nor what the company states.
However, based on my own personal experience of both sides in this conflict, I have to say I agree with the current stance of BASSA. If we do not stand up now, where does it end? Complete disregard for our current terms and conditions? Destruction of any future ones?
I hope not and as I said earlier time will tell.
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"Breakdown in industrial relations" So you're ballotting because you don't like the management? So how exactly do you get to win on this issue?
"Pensions". Again, no failure to agree as yet so quite possibly illegal to strike on this one.
"Application of EG300". Can't fault this one.
"Joining of Main Crew new starter rates to old rates " Signed away at the end of the '97 strike and it's not coming back. The whole point of the new contract was to save cash, do you think BA will tear that up and perpetuate having the highest paid crew in the industry?
"Purser Junior swap ". Do we need 5 supervisors for 10 staff? Really?
"Fixed links ". Errr you don't do them any more and at T5 there'll be no CATs for you anyway.
"Preferred seller". Work hard and make yourself more cash?
"Man Base closure" Its a shame but I didn't see anyone striking over the BHX base closure.
"900 hours ". Being run by BA exactly in accordance with the CAAs requirements. Nothing you can do about it.
"Downroute report times". What exactly are they doing to those? You already can report before the flight crew and the aircraft isn't going anywhere without them.
This seems to me, to an extent, to be BASSA reps throwing their toys out of the pram because they are receiving a taste of their own medicine. For years they have just said 'No' to BA and IFS management have capitulated.
"Want a grand for slipping in Macau during SARS? No problem"
"£200 each for working one down? Be our guest"
"You want to decide when we'll work one down for cash? Thats fine"
"Double allowances for a trip change on the day? Take it away!"
"Want to get off your trip cos your a minute late. No objections here"
Now that BAs management have finally learned to say 'No' to the BASSA reps they all start throwing a hissy fit and complaining about a breakdown in industrial relations.
"Pensions". Again, no failure to agree as yet so quite possibly illegal to strike on this one.
"Application of EG300". Can't fault this one.
"Joining of Main Crew new starter rates to old rates " Signed away at the end of the '97 strike and it's not coming back. The whole point of the new contract was to save cash, do you think BA will tear that up and perpetuate having the highest paid crew in the industry?
"Purser Junior swap ". Do we need 5 supervisors for 10 staff? Really?
"Fixed links ". Errr you don't do them any more and at T5 there'll be no CATs for you anyway.
"Preferred seller". Work hard and make yourself more cash?
"Man Base closure" Its a shame but I didn't see anyone striking over the BHX base closure.
"900 hours ". Being run by BA exactly in accordance with the CAAs requirements. Nothing you can do about it.
"Downroute report times". What exactly are they doing to those? You already can report before the flight crew and the aircraft isn't going anywhere without them.
This seems to me, to an extent, to be BASSA reps throwing their toys out of the pram because they are receiving a taste of their own medicine. For years they have just said 'No' to BA and IFS management have capitulated.
"Want a grand for slipping in Macau during SARS? No problem"
"£200 each for working one down? Be our guest"
"You want to decide when we'll work one down for cash? Thats fine"
"Double allowances for a trip change on the day? Take it away!"
"Want to get off your trip cos your a minute late. No objections here"
Now that BAs management have finally learned to say 'No' to the BASSA reps they all start throwing a hissy fit and complaining about a breakdown in industrial relations.