BA - Common Issues
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Carnage Matey has brought up some very valid points. Some current terms and conditions are incredible - "destination" payments (ie turning up for harder flights), working down payments (get the CSD on the end of a trolley in the back cabin!!!), double allowances for changes in trips, 5 supervisors on 747s (!!!), going sick whenever and wherever and not expecting any come back......the list goes on! And now, everyone is upset because people are starting to put a stop to this nonsense and are even suggesting the crew did some work.
I and most of the public will not be behind the crews. Did the 1997 strike put a stop to the new pay scale? NO.
I and most of the public will not be behind the crews. Did the 1997 strike put a stop to the new pay scale? NO.
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In the past when British Airways was not making money we have been willing to cut back and find ways of saving money, the Management have taken and then taken some more, but to help the airline survive we have given and got nothing in return . Now British Airways is making healthy profits, with a high share price and are about to impose Hourly flight pay which will mean massive loss of earnings, if they want to save money shouldn't they start at the top, with Willie himself and Half his salary, like he is trying to do to ours? If we where not making money, then of course we would accept anything to keep our airline running, but when it is just Greed that is fueling this, why should we accept anything, and any saving from the reductions in salary will of course be passed on to the management as huge bonuses for their hard work in shafting us. I think people who are commenting should find out exactly how much we actually earn because if you knew the truth you would be very shocked at how little it is.
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But I know the truth and a brand new entrant will take home £1600-1800 in a typical month, which is not a poverty wage by any measure. Your post, Rach G, is why the cabin crew don't have a great deal of credibility sometimes. You talk about giving things up to help the company, but really it was only the 16th crew member on the 744, and that came at a time when we were downgrading the capacity of the 744 from 395 to 299 seats! Meanwhile BASSA still extorted all the aforementioned payments from BA. Now people spout on about how the hourly pay will cost them thousands of pounds per year. It won't. It's an hourly rate from check in to check out. Not an hourly flying payment. People are getting all upset because BASSA say its bad but nobody can actually say how much BA are proposing to pay them, and very few dare to calculate what its actually worth overall and state that maybe, just maybe, it might be better for them overall.
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Carnage you've just shown your ignorance, £1600-£1800 thats a good month, and with the cost of living in the south east that is a poor wage. Are you saying we don't deserve a decent salary? The wages at BA maybe slightly better one month or another than at some other Airlines but it is still an average wage, when the Airline is making huge profits and dishing out Massive bonuses left right and center to Managers, and employing even more Managers to Manage ARI's, why should we take a pay cut, BA wouldn't try to put us on Flight pay if we where going to make more money, its only going to benefit BA, not us. Just look at Single fleet LGW there flight pay is less than £2.50 per hour yes its from check-in to Check-out but its still terribly short of what they should be earning for the long hours and hard work they do,they haven't benefited from Flight Pay neither will LHR crew. Do you think BA have gained the reputation it has from employing the types that would work for peanuts in a burger bar or do you think it will maintain its reputation when it is paying peanuts, our first and club passengers will be happy being served by someone who wouldn't even get an interview at a No frills Airline? They'll save money now but lose alot more in the future
Last edited by Rach-G; 11th Dec 2006 at 14:46.
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Aaaah I am showing my ignorance am I? This is why you lack credibility. £1600-£1800 is not a good month, its the average month. Don't tell me I don't know, I've seen enough of the payslips to know. And thats a poor wage is it? If you are averaging £1600 per month you would have to be earning £22800 per year in a normal job to achieve that. If it was £1700 per month then you'd be on £24400. If you can manage £18000 then you'd need to be on £25900. Compare that to an average salary of £22400 and I'd say you are paid pretty well for a low skill job that requires less than 6 weeks of training. There are plenty of people in the South East earning less than that and getting by.
The issue is not even that you are paid well (which you are for the job you do). It is that BA do not even get value for money. 5 supervisory grades for 10 main crew on a 747. A CSD with a non-service role. 2 supervisory grades on a 767. Less than 40 sectors per month from EF crew. Hugh standby requirements to cover crew walking off flights. BA pay you more and work you less than any other UK carrier, yet you have the audacity to claim you are hard done by?
The issue is not even that you are paid well (which you are for the job you do). It is that BA do not even get value for money. 5 supervisory grades for 10 main crew on a 747. A CSD with a non-service role. 2 supervisory grades on a 767. Less than 40 sectors per month from EF crew. Hugh standby requirements to cover crew walking off flights. BA pay you more and work you less than any other UK carrier, yet you have the audacity to claim you are hard done by?
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Just a gentle reminder please folks - this is clearly an emotive issue for many and passion is understandable. However, comments such as
contribute little to the debate except unpleasantness and a general raising of the temperature. For example, the above phrase might be re-written as
A little old-fashioned I know, but you get the point I'm sure.
Play the ball, not the player, and the world will sort itself out just fine!
Carnage you've just shown your ignorance
Carnage, may I disagree with you - because...
Play the ball, not the player, and the world will sort itself out just fine!
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Carnage- Whilst day in, day out passenger service may be "unskilled" i'm sure our flightcrew would not be prepared to fly with us if we were unskilled. How many unskilled workers would be able to deal with a incapacitated pilot, fire onboard, use a defibrilator and many other incidents we are trained for?
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I am one of your flight crew Rach, and I know full well the skill levels of the crew behind the flight deck door, both the good and the bad. I also go to SEP every year and see just how good/bad some of you are at using a defib, fighting a fire or locking an incapacitated pilot in his seat.
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HOWEVER, as for SEP, I agree standards vary a lot, but I have had SEP with colleagues of yours (flight crew) who were absolutely useless too!! In particular one of them was supposed to play the captain during the fire drill and he was a total disaster! And he's paid as a captain on the 777!!! This doesn't mean that all flight crew are useless at their job though, does it?
Please do not underestimate the role of the crew at the back, they have their skills which differ from yours and that's partially why you're doing different jobs. Most do fly in their own free time too you know (I used to see many colleagues of mine at goodwood/shoreham/popham etc) so have good flying skills as well but would never do your job for any money in the world (like me!).
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I've been the captain during the fire drill too. Its a contrived affair, sitting in a room being told by an SEP instructor when to give you your instructions to make the drill realistic for you. Neither the scenario nor the time frame are realistic and that exercise bears about as much relation to his command competence as his karaoke skills do! Remember we only know what the communicator tells us! Still I am glad that you have dared to put your head above the parapet and question some of the hot air that is bellowing out from BASSA HQ at the moment. I bet nobodys doing that on the BASSA forum!!!!!
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Carnage mate, I don't know who's payslips you have seen but £1600 - £1800 per month, take home is definitely not the average for a new starter on short-haul. Perhaps at LHR WW, new contract, it would be fairly average, but on short-haul the average I would say is £1300-£1400.
I think the issue really at hand here, is with many of our terms and conditions, yes, they do seem out of date. And yes, they may be hard to jusity to someone who is not BA cabin crew. And yes, these t&c's probably do invoke anger in some BA work forces whom don't have an effective union and whom have seen their t&c's deteriorate over the years.
Most of us know we don't need 4 Pursers and a CSD on the 747. Most of us know we earn more than the average UK cabin crew member and have more time off. Most of us know the record profits BA has been earning.
However, in any job, in any company, in any industry there will always be one company at the top end of the scale in terms of pay and t&c's and one at the bottom. I mean do those working at Barclays get paid the same as those working at Lloyds? Do those working at DirectLine get paid the same as those working at Churchill? Do pilots or engineers working for Aviance get the same as those at Aer Lingus? I don't know the answer to any of these, but i suspect in every example, one of the companies enjoys significantly better pay, terms and conditions than the other.
And this is probably down to the effectiveness of their union - management negotiation. Unfortunately the NEGOTIATION bit is what seems to be lacking at BA at the moment, both on the management and union side. BASSA has a reputation of being staunch and inflexible, so BA bring in staunch and inflexible management to deal with them. The result? Well what is being witnessed right now actually.
The problem for us now is, we HAVE to vote YES. And if so, see it through to a 'strike'.
I feel a little like I am being held by the bol*ocks by BASSA. I don't want to vote to strike on any of the issues we are being balloted on (which is ONLY pensions, Purser removal and merging old/new contracts) because I don't think we have reached the end of the road negotiation wise.
BA will never back down totally on pensions (at a £500M per year cost to keep the pension status quo they would rather a strike any day). We know we can't justify in any way, shape or form 5 senior crew members on a jumbo. And the old/new contract scenario EU legislation will take care of soon enough anyway.
However, now that BASSA and the hundred odd members whom attended the last meeting have decided this vote is to take place, if there is not a big enough YES vote, when much greater battles come (WHICH I BELIEVE WILL COME SOON WITH THE MOVE TO T5)) we will have no sway what so ever with management.
Personally, I am more concerned with EG300, loss of box payments, loss of STP, loss of ETP. But we aren't being balloted on any of this. Yet, when all this does come to the table, if there had been a dismal YES return on the current issues, management will be able to steamroll whatever changes through because they won't fear a strike based on the previous (ie current) industrial action.
Get what I mean? It is a catch 22. I don't want to strike and don't really believe strongly on any of the issues we are ACTUALLY BEING BALLOTED ON. However, I will vote YES to keep the union in a strong position for when the rest of the stuff comes up. But I AM pis*ed off that BASSA has voted on a ballot now, instead of waiting closer to T5 opening and when more of our t&c's are up for grabs.
I think the issue really at hand here, is with many of our terms and conditions, yes, they do seem out of date. And yes, they may be hard to jusity to someone who is not BA cabin crew. And yes, these t&c's probably do invoke anger in some BA work forces whom don't have an effective union and whom have seen their t&c's deteriorate over the years.
Most of us know we don't need 4 Pursers and a CSD on the 747. Most of us know we earn more than the average UK cabin crew member and have more time off. Most of us know the record profits BA has been earning.
However, in any job, in any company, in any industry there will always be one company at the top end of the scale in terms of pay and t&c's and one at the bottom. I mean do those working at Barclays get paid the same as those working at Lloyds? Do those working at DirectLine get paid the same as those working at Churchill? Do pilots or engineers working for Aviance get the same as those at Aer Lingus? I don't know the answer to any of these, but i suspect in every example, one of the companies enjoys significantly better pay, terms and conditions than the other.
And this is probably down to the effectiveness of their union - management negotiation. Unfortunately the NEGOTIATION bit is what seems to be lacking at BA at the moment, both on the management and union side. BASSA has a reputation of being staunch and inflexible, so BA bring in staunch and inflexible management to deal with them. The result? Well what is being witnessed right now actually.
The problem for us now is, we HAVE to vote YES. And if so, see it through to a 'strike'.
I feel a little like I am being held by the bol*ocks by BASSA. I don't want to vote to strike on any of the issues we are being balloted on (which is ONLY pensions, Purser removal and merging old/new contracts) because I don't think we have reached the end of the road negotiation wise.
BA will never back down totally on pensions (at a £500M per year cost to keep the pension status quo they would rather a strike any day). We know we can't justify in any way, shape or form 5 senior crew members on a jumbo. And the old/new contract scenario EU legislation will take care of soon enough anyway.
However, now that BASSA and the hundred odd members whom attended the last meeting have decided this vote is to take place, if there is not a big enough YES vote, when much greater battles come (WHICH I BELIEVE WILL COME SOON WITH THE MOVE TO T5)) we will have no sway what so ever with management.
Personally, I am more concerned with EG300, loss of box payments, loss of STP, loss of ETP. But we aren't being balloted on any of this. Yet, when all this does come to the table, if there had been a dismal YES return on the current issues, management will be able to steamroll whatever changes through because they won't fear a strike based on the previous (ie current) industrial action.
Get what I mean? It is a catch 22. I don't want to strike and don't really believe strongly on any of the issues we are ACTUALLY BEING BALLOTED ON. However, I will vote YES to keep the union in a strong position for when the rest of the stuff comes up. But I AM pis*ed off that BASSA has voted on a ballot now, instead of waiting closer to T5 opening and when more of our t&c's are up for grabs.
Last edited by keeperboy; 11th Dec 2006 at 17:37. Reason: spelling
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I'm not sure that slanging matches between BA flight and cabin crew help.
BA flight and cabin crews seem to have an icy history anyway - perhaps envy on each side. From an outsider's point of view, and having read a lot in the press and on the net on the BA issue, it seems that both the pilots and cabin crews want, want, want. Times have changed and flying is a glorified bus service nowadays, but the flight and cabin staff seem to be kidding themselves otherwise, and cannot accept that they will have to work both harder and longer to justify the low prices their company are offering (£199 to JFK return for me next Feb).
BA flight and cabin crews seem to have an icy history anyway - perhaps envy on each side. From an outsider's point of view, and having read a lot in the press and on the net on the BA issue, it seems that both the pilots and cabin crews want, want, want. Times have changed and flying is a glorified bus service nowadays, but the flight and cabin staff seem to be kidding themselves otherwise, and cannot accept that they will have to work both harder and longer to justify the low prices their company are offering (£199 to JFK return for me next Feb).
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Congatulations, you got one of the cheap, cheap tickets to New York. However thats not the kind of ticket that keeps BA in business, its the 70 Club passengers up front paying several thousand pounds each that pay the bills, so turn right at the door and head right to the back of the aircraft little man.
PS I wouldn't be too smug about your ultra-cheap ticket to JFK. February is at the tail of the window when the cabin crew might strike and slap bang in the window when the flight crew couls strike, so you may well find us want, want, wanting while you're stuck in the terminal in JFK. I, on the other hand, have booked my tickets on another carrier.
PS I wouldn't be too smug about your ultra-cheap ticket to JFK. February is at the tail of the window when the cabin crew might strike and slap bang in the window when the flight crew couls strike, so you may well find us want, want, wanting while you're stuck in the terminal in JFK. I, on the other hand, have booked my tickets on another carrier.
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Just received this email from a friend of mine....
British Airways Cabin Crew are set to vote overwhelmingly for strike action. This could take place anytime from the end of January through to the end of March but a strike is most likely to happen sometime in February.
British Airways Cabin Crew would like it to be known that they absolutely do not want to go on strike. As Cabin Crew, all we want to do is our very best to look after the travelling public, conveying each and every one of you as comfortably and as safely as we possibly can from A to B. Obviously there are occasions when circumstances conspire against us, both for you the public and us as your crew, but it is often these very circumstances when our passengers appreciate most that they are with a British Airways Cabin Crew. This is borne out by us constantly exceeding every customer service target British Airways have ever set for us and also the clutch of industry awards we win every year - including this year where thanks to our hard work and the votes of you our customers, we walked away with the Best Cabin Crew award.
However, things are not all rosy with the current management of British Airways. Historically, we have always had a proper business relationship with our management. As with any commercial environment or business scenario, there has to be an appropriate level of give and take on both sides in order for anything to work. However, our new management team have a lot of ‘new brooms’ and wish to make a lot of changes. They have approached these changes by refusing to speak to our representatives, declaring their intention to introduce the changes without discussion and openly stating that “we will walk right through you.”
These changes are both to our working agreements and to our employment contracts, including but not limited to cuts in pay, no pay increases at all after a certain time, cuts in promotion opportunities, less rest between flights, removal of working position choice and BA ignoring the wording of their own sickness policy when applying it to Cabin Crew. This certainly has health and safety implications.
These changes go beyond simply working harder in a changing commercial and security conscious environment. They will affect our lives outside work, our take home pay and most importantly our family life outside of work. They will also have a knock on effect to you, our passengers.
We are still trying to get our management to talk to us but they are telling us “we have nothing to talk about”. Unfortunately at the moment we are not seen as people - and we are just like every one of you, doing the best job we can to earn a living and go home to our families, we are seen as expendable staff numbers. And whilst on board, we see you going about your business, travelling to see friends or going on holiday with your families, our current management see you simply as pound signs in seats.
At the moment, a strike is the only way we have of standing up for ourselves and forcing our management to open proper discussions regarding our contracts and our future employment. This can all be avoided with the application of a reasonable attitude and a dose of common sense from British Airways management, but anyone who followed the recent ‘cross wearing’ debacle will know that those qualities seem to be more lacking, the higher up the British Airways management tree you climb.
Should a strike happen and should you be caught up in the chaos it will cause, British Airways Cabin Crew humbly and sincerely apologise to you and ask for your patience and understanding whilst we try to get our managers to speak to us(!)
If you have non-changeable travel plans with British Airways from January to March next year, you can write to our chief executive Willie Walsh at
British Airways plc
Waterside
PO Box 365
Harmondsworth
UB7 0GB
Or e-mail customer relations using this link:
http://www.britishairways.com/travel...l/public/en_gb
Please urge him to treat his employees properly or simply provide him with your thoughts on British Airways current management style.
Thank you for your time
British Airways Cabin Crew
British Airways Cabin Crew are set to vote overwhelmingly for strike action. This could take place anytime from the end of January through to the end of March but a strike is most likely to happen sometime in February.
British Airways Cabin Crew would like it to be known that they absolutely do not want to go on strike. As Cabin Crew, all we want to do is our very best to look after the travelling public, conveying each and every one of you as comfortably and as safely as we possibly can from A to B. Obviously there are occasions when circumstances conspire against us, both for you the public and us as your crew, but it is often these very circumstances when our passengers appreciate most that they are with a British Airways Cabin Crew. This is borne out by us constantly exceeding every customer service target British Airways have ever set for us and also the clutch of industry awards we win every year - including this year where thanks to our hard work and the votes of you our customers, we walked away with the Best Cabin Crew award.
However, things are not all rosy with the current management of British Airways. Historically, we have always had a proper business relationship with our management. As with any commercial environment or business scenario, there has to be an appropriate level of give and take on both sides in order for anything to work. However, our new management team have a lot of ‘new brooms’ and wish to make a lot of changes. They have approached these changes by refusing to speak to our representatives, declaring their intention to introduce the changes without discussion and openly stating that “we will walk right through you.”
These changes are both to our working agreements and to our employment contracts, including but not limited to cuts in pay, no pay increases at all after a certain time, cuts in promotion opportunities, less rest between flights, removal of working position choice and BA ignoring the wording of their own sickness policy when applying it to Cabin Crew. This certainly has health and safety implications.
These changes go beyond simply working harder in a changing commercial and security conscious environment. They will affect our lives outside work, our take home pay and most importantly our family life outside of work. They will also have a knock on effect to you, our passengers.
We are still trying to get our management to talk to us but they are telling us “we have nothing to talk about”. Unfortunately at the moment we are not seen as people - and we are just like every one of you, doing the best job we can to earn a living and go home to our families, we are seen as expendable staff numbers. And whilst on board, we see you going about your business, travelling to see friends or going on holiday with your families, our current management see you simply as pound signs in seats.
At the moment, a strike is the only way we have of standing up for ourselves and forcing our management to open proper discussions regarding our contracts and our future employment. This can all be avoided with the application of a reasonable attitude and a dose of common sense from British Airways management, but anyone who followed the recent ‘cross wearing’ debacle will know that those qualities seem to be more lacking, the higher up the British Airways management tree you climb.
Should a strike happen and should you be caught up in the chaos it will cause, British Airways Cabin Crew humbly and sincerely apologise to you and ask for your patience and understanding whilst we try to get our managers to speak to us(!)
If you have non-changeable travel plans with British Airways from January to March next year, you can write to our chief executive Willie Walsh at
British Airways plc
Waterside
PO Box 365
Harmondsworth
UB7 0GB
Or e-mail customer relations using this link:
http://www.britishairways.com/travel...l/public/en_gb
Please urge him to treat his employees properly or simply provide him with your thoughts on British Airways current management style.
Thank you for your time
British Airways Cabin Crew
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Seen it before. Given that the decision to ballot was based on a show of hands of around 100 people (less than 1% of the cabin crew at BA) its rather presumptious to state that BA cabin crew are set to vote overwhelmingly for a strike. I predict a marginal majority for industrial action on a very low turnout, followed by a big sick out like in 97.
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My friend and his wife are both BA crew. One is old contract, joined early 90s, the other is new contract joined around 99. They are on married rosters, fly together on WW, live in a reasonable house in one of the more affordable suburbs of Maidenhead. Two cars, a couple of holdays each year and are saving for their wedding. Doesn't sound like the hard luck story so many proclaim here. He even has time and money for a round of golf, both at home and downroute, and plays rather well. I once dated a new contract stewardess for some time. Thats how I now what a new contract monthly take home pay looks like. I know lots of crew on a social basis from when I worked at a small base, and regularly stop to chat in Compass with crew friends from my short haul days.
You see Anti-Ice, I know all about what you earn, how many sectors you work, how many hours per year you fly, and thats why I can come on here and state facts. Thats right, facts. You and most of your colleagues can only resort to attempting to ridicule these facts and post lots of emotional outpourings in an attempt to obscure the truth. Which, coincidentally, is also the way BASSA work. It's much easier for you to stick your head in the sand and accuse anyone who criticises you of being anti-crew, having a god complex etc etc than to argue your case. Only a couple of posters have the nouse to look at the facts of the case and say many of your agreements are unjustifiable. That is different from saying indefensible, but I don't expect you to understand the subtlety.
You see Anti-Ice, I know all about what you earn, how many sectors you work, how many hours per year you fly, and thats why I can come on here and state facts. Thats right, facts. You and most of your colleagues can only resort to attempting to ridicule these facts and post lots of emotional outpourings in an attempt to obscure the truth. Which, coincidentally, is also the way BASSA work. It's much easier for you to stick your head in the sand and accuse anyone who criticises you of being anti-crew, having a god complex etc etc than to argue your case. Only a couple of posters have the nouse to look at the facts of the case and say many of your agreements are unjustifiable. That is different from saying indefensible, but I don't expect you to understand the subtlety.
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I'm not BA - I'm charter.
However, that doesn't stop me raising a couple of points that I think you should consider:
Most crew in airlines other than BA would very much like to have BA money and T&C's: They aspire to be like that "one day". This in itself doesn't mean much, except that BA are viewed as being "better". Accurate or not, the perception is that BA earn more and work less. Waving individual payslips around in here won't change that perception, and if it goes to a strike, percption is king. In other words, in a strike, don't expect too much sympathy and support from other CC in the industry.
Th real issue, if striking (or threatening to do so) relates to public perception. If the great British public supports such action, you'll win, and if they don't, you'll lose - it's really that simple. Now ask yourselves just how much sympathy and support you expect to receive, and behave accordingly.
However, that doesn't stop me raising a couple of points that I think you should consider:
Most crew in airlines other than BA would very much like to have BA money and T&C's: They aspire to be like that "one day". This in itself doesn't mean much, except that BA are viewed as being "better". Accurate or not, the perception is that BA earn more and work less. Waving individual payslips around in here won't change that perception, and if it goes to a strike, percption is king. In other words, in a strike, don't expect too much sympathy and support from other CC in the industry.
Th real issue, if striking (or threatening to do so) relates to public perception. If the great British public supports such action, you'll win, and if they don't, you'll lose - it's really that simple. Now ask yourselves just how much sympathy and support you expect to receive, and behave accordingly.