Safety, incidents, etc

[flybywire]

CRM is now mandatory in all UK airlines' training courses. However it seems that there are still several CRM incidents happening.

I think that what NC said makes a lot of sense. If when you try that you feel that you're talking "to a wall" then I suggest you write a CHIRP which will be considered by the CAA and investigated on (Of course if you're in the UK, but many other countries have something similar).

Recently my other half flew with a brand new F/O who stated to him: "I hate cabin crew"! You can imagine what kind of atmosphere there was during the flight in general and especially in the flight deck after this statement was made! My boyfriend was really not happy as this guy was also poor in communicating with him during normal operations.

Well, this shows how CRM can be ineffective on some people and I believe that these individuals should be retrained till they can comply with the regulations while they are at work. Then, if on a nightstop they want to be miserable and hide in their room it's up to them, but such behaviour whilst on-duty should not be tolerated, as something said just because they didn't know what to do with their toungue at that time could create a big barrier when/if an emergency occurred at any time during the flight.

I really cannot wait to fly with this new guy!!!!!!!

I believe that we all have a role in preventing communication barriers from developing and in destroying them before they become a real issue. Accidents that happened in the past have tought us so much and we should all learn the lesson, whether we sit in the LH seat or near the APU!

FBW

(gosh I feel better now )

[nutcracker43]

Mystic flyer.

I was about to suggest that you wrote to Chirps (not certain whether you are in the UK). I see someone has suggested Chirps in the post above...any 'naughties' are investigated. Companies generally do not like beig investigated, especially where FS is concerned.

Good luck with your quest....I'm off abroad next week for about six to eight weeks, however, I shalll send it as soon as I can rake it out.

NC43

[kj008]

Dont play with peoples' lives

I really think that being a crew member, its your duty to report such incidents as it can be detrimental to yours and your passengers' lives.

I guess just because its a daily thing for crew members, complacancy sets in. This is dangerous.

If you look at the Helios crash, it was something to do with the A/c and pressure control.

I was once on a Air Sahara flight from Singapore to New Delhi when during landing, i noticed that one flap of the starboard speed break did not close properply. I informed a crew member who was very grateful for the said info.

Its these little reports that can safe huge destruction.

Try to be more responsible...and report such incidents.

[kookabat]

Remember the little old lady who noticed daylight through a whopping big crack in the roof of that Aloha 737, didn't say anything - and then the roof ripped off....

[flybywire]

For once I would like to report something really good that has just happened to me...

Yesterday I got called out for a 4-sector day. We were working with a brand new cabin crew and a crew new to the company but with a couple of years' flying experience. The captain was a fairly new captain as well. As I said we had to do 4 very short but oversold sectors. both in C and Y. As we took off for the last sector, both the purser and I (at the back) realised there was something wrong.

Myself and the other crew decided to go to the front (to respect interphone silence) to see whether they had noticed something. When we got there the purser was already in contact with the captain (to inform him that there was something wrong) who informed her that a few things were not right at all in the F/D and that he'd let us know as soon as possible what was going on and what his intentions were. It was 5 long minutes!!! We prepared for absolutely any option despite feeling the tension of not knowing what was going on. It could have been anything and a cabin crew with a bit of immagination can think of a million and one things!! We all drank a glass of water and started doing some breathing exercises to be able to slow our heart rates and to be able to focus properly. We then revised all our procedures together(decompression, Em. landing etc)

Passengers were unaware of anything but started noticing that we were going around in circles. The purser then made a PA informing that the captain would speak as soon as he could, and so he did straight away. He clearly - but at the same time in a very reassuring way - told them we had a problem and that we had to land back. He then asked us to prepare the cabin for a heavy landing.

All the crew were fantastic during this time, including the brand new one who had just come out of SEP training!!! Communications with the FC was really good all the way through and also while we were stuck on the ground waiting for the engineers to find the cause of the problem and solve it. They couldn't so we had an unscheduled night stop - unfortunately most of our valued customers were in the same hotel but yet again, the FC leadership and support was extremely good and made sure we were all safe and well in our rooms. We also had an extensive debriefing so that we all knew exactly what happened and we had a chance to share our own views and unload some "weight"!!!

I just wanted to write this as I have had some bad experiences in the past but also good ones, and this was a clear example of a professional, united crew where communication wasn't a problem, nor was it misused in any way. No false leaderships, but a very open, honest and professional approach by each person in their own specific role and as a whole team too.

We were happy about the decision of the FC to land back and we tried to help those passengers who became grumpy understand why. it's better to be on the ground wishing to be in the air than the other way round!!!

Our colleagues on the ground did a brilliant job too making our unscheduled stay as trouble-free as possible.

24 hours later we were all safely back at base. One thing I've learnt, always have some sort of make-up remover in the day bag!!!!!

I'm really proud of my colleagues today

FBW

[flyblue]

Makes you appreciate routine, huh?
I just had an aborted T/O out of CDG three days ago, and let me tell you that a good crew synergy is as beautiful to experience as a statue by Michelangelo to see

Thank you for your story FBW!

[ZBMAN]

Originally Posted by flybywire

CRM is now mandatory in all UK airlines' training courses. However it seems that there are still several CRM incidents happening.

I think that what NC said makes a lot of sense. If when you try that you feel that you're talking "to a wall" then I suggest you write a CHIRP which will be considered by the CAA and investigated on (Of course if you're in the UK, but many other countries have something similar).

Recently my other half flew with a brand new F/O who stated to him: "I hate cabin crew"! You can imagine what kind of atmosphere there was during the flight in general and especially in the flight deck after this statement was made! My boyfriend was really not happy as this guy was also poor in communicating with him during normal operations.

Well, this shows how CRM can be ineffective on some people and I believe that these individuals should be retrained till they can comply with the regulations while they are at work. Then, if on a nightstop they want to be miserable and hide in their room it's up to them, but such behaviour whilst on-duty should not be tolerated, as something said just because they didn't know what to do with their toungue at that time could create a big barrier when/if an emergency occurred at any time during the flight.

I really cannot wait to fly with this new guy!!!!!!!

I believe that we all have a role in preventing communication barriers from developing and in destroying them before they become a real issue. Accidents that happened in the past have tought us so much and we should all learn the lesson, whether we sit in the LH seat or near the APU!

FBW

(gosh I feel better now )

FBW,

Interesting post. However, it clearly illustrates a misconception that many people, pilots and CC alike, have about what CRM really is. CRM is not about being friendly, it is not about being chatty on the flight deck, or sociable down route. CRM is the art of removing the "human factor", ie about finding ways to fly safely and efficiently should the guy next to you be a tw*t!
In the example you describe, although the FO shouldn't have said what he said, and although the F/D must have been pretty quiet for the rest of the flight, I am sure both of them operated the flight in a professional and safe manner. I am also sure they would have coped well in the unfortunate event of an emergency. If your partner feels this was not the case, then it is as much his fault as the FO's to have let the situation deteriorate to that extent.
This guy was just probably nervous and trying rather clumsily to make conversation (I was in that position not too long ago ), but I guess he should've known better!

[flyblue]

ZBMAN

it clearly illustrates a misconception that many people, pilots and CC alike, have about what CRM really is.

I think flybywire was referring to the poor quality of communication between this particular individual and the rest of the crew, and not to the fact that he was not being sociable and chatty. At least it's what I understood when she said:

if on a nightstop they want to be miserable and hide in their room it's up to them

and

I believe that we all have a role in preventing communication barriers from developing and in destroying them before they become a real issue. Accidents that happened in the past have tought us so much and we should all learn the lesson

.

[flybywire]

Originally Posted by ZBMAN

FBW,

Interesting post. However, it clearly illustrates a misconception that many people, pilots and CC alike, have about what CRM really is. CRM is not about being friendly, it is not about being chatty on the flight deck, or sociable down route. CRM is the art of removing the "human factor", ie about finding ways to fly safely and efficiently should the guy next to you be a tw*t!

Really?
CRM used to be Cockpit Resource Management but was changed into CREW Resource Management, and that includes CC as well as FC and, believe it or not, ground staff too. "Human factors" that are created by being really unpleasant and having misconceptions about each others' roles are as fatal as, to quote your example, flying with a t*at and not knowing what to do!! In a way we're saying the same thing
If you read my post above - the one about the diversion - you would see what I consider really good CRM.

In the example you describe, although the FO shouldn't have said what he said, and although the F/D must have been pretty quiet for the rest of the flight, I am sure both of them operated the flight in a professional and safe manner. I am also sure they would have coped well in the unfortunate event of an emergency. If your partner feels this was not the case, then it is as much his fault as the FO's to have let the situation deteriorate to that extent.

You're right, it's not a matter of CRM here, he is simply a rude person with little consideration and respect for others!! I don't understand why he wants to fly for an airline if he thinks that all cabin crew are such terrible people. Also, if he's mature enough to take charge of an aircraft full of people he should be mature enough to see that generalizations are usually not true and definitely unfair. We have examples of accidents when loss of life could have been prevented but was not, purely because of problems of a human relation nature (Saudia Arabian Lockeed TriStar - August 1980...rings a bell?)

My partner of course didn't appreciate his comments and was definitely annoyed by the attitude of a brand new first officer who should have known better, having just finished his training. However he did make any effort possible to try and avoid that this guy's unpleasant attitude didn't offend anybody else on board (Cabin Crew started complaining to him that this F/O passed in front of them in the galley a few times without saying a word and without responding to any kind of attempt of the CC to make conversation!!) Again, I think you're right, why call it lack of CRM, let's call it rudeness!!

This guy was just probably nervous and trying rather clumsily to make conversation (I was in that position not too long ago ), but I guess he should've known better!

Nervous or not, we've all been there in our lives. If a person is struggling on their first few days they should at least make life easier for themselves avoiding conflict right from the start!! And no, he was not clumsy - I've had the pleasure to fly with him too - he probably overcomes his fears/insecurity by making loud statements that'd better keep in his mind and that are not nice, but probably give him some sort of feeling of potence. VERY SCARY!!
"I hate all cabin crew" doesn't really sound like somebody who's having troubles getting used to their new routine, but rather like somebody who's definitely in the wrong job.

[asle]

Toxic fumes in aircraft

Hi. I am a Norwegian journalist. The last three years I have been researching toxic fumes in aircraft and published quite a few articles on the issue, many of which also available in english versions, http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/?typ...glish+versions

I would really like to get in touch with cabin crew and pilots who have experienced such incidents on board.

My e-mail: [email protected]

Asle Hansen

Originally Posted by flybywire

Right....whenever I fly with this particular captain I don't feel comfortable. He's a pleasant enough chap, but has the ability to put off anybody (ground staff, dispatchers, fuellers, first officers, cabin crew etc). He is the kind of person who's always in a rush and wants to get back early, so stresses people to the limit, almost always obtaining the opposite result.

The other day something happened that really made me want to talk to somebody in the company about it (but I didn't).

We all boarded the aircraft just after 5am, for a quick and easy MRS there&back.
As we were doing our checks etc my colleague and I started smelling fuel at the back of the aircraft. It was very intense. It then spread all over the aircraft. I pass my checks over the PA as usual and inform the purser that there's a strong smell of fuel at the back which is unusual. Captain replies "Till we fly these machines on hydrogen, you'll always smell that!"

The puser then comes to the back, and having smelt what we did, calls the CPT to check himself.
Captain arrives elegantly chewing his gum and says he can't smell anything. He then calls the FO who, at the CPT's question "you don't smell anything, do you" replies "No I don't".
We then call the other cabin crew from the fwd galley who in fact can smell the same.

Pax boarding is delayed till the air clears. During all this time, no explanation from CPT.

Pax then board and as we start pushing back and while I was reading the demo, the smell increases again. It's really strong, so much that I feel a bit sick at this point. Passengers start questioning us. We cannot give a proper answer as we don't know what is going on ourselves. We try to calm them down, but with a full load of business pax who travel every day and know the aircraft almost better than us, lying isn't an option.

It's only after lots of pressure that the CPT says that this was the 1st flight of that particular a/c after being in the hangar and the paperwork showed that it had APU problems before etc etc etc and a load of rubbish.

Now at this point I thought:

1) Why joke about our concerns? why not being grateful for noticing and reporting what was going on?

2)Why not telling us immediately what was going on? Was he scared we would delay the flight even further so that he would miss his roast dinner?

3) why create so much upset for nothing....especially if he knew it wasn't something to worry about?

4) Where is the responsibility towards the passengers (and crew)??? When worried pax questioned us I was so angry I wanted to say "I don't know there's something wrong with the plane but the captain won't tell me"-of course I didn't, and just because I care about them.

I really hope I won't fly with this person for a long, long time. But I know that Sod's law always work. So I hope I can find a way to deal with this before then. Because if something happens next time, I'll propbably do something more about it.

Thanks for listening!!!

FBW

[geordi]

Originally Posted by ABird747

This 'no doors open' policy is one of my real bug bears... The number of times we've been sweating in the cabin as the APU's broken *again* and we can't open the doors because of the 'wrap you in cotton wool' hysteria that pervades the airline at times.

It just begs the question, how did we survive before? If you're really that stupid to fall out of a door, maybe you're too dumb to be let out of the house alone... Some of the things I see my colleagues doing leave me speechless, all people need to do is stop and THINK and half the stupid accidents won't happen.

I've recently come out of many years in an Aussie airline's Corp Safety - have to agree with my BA counterpart - the problem isn't that there haven't been previous accidents, or human error.... the thing is that there is legislation in the UK, Aus and NZ plus some other countries - the issue is "work at heights" and your cabin is a work environment.... so by all means, leave the door open with a strap across it, but be ready to explain to the regulators why you did so, and cough up lots of $$ as you walk out of your job! Also the airline will get fined, and if the regulator is really annoyed, can impose bans!

The message basically these days is - is an incident reasonably foreseeable, and a strap across a 3+ metre drop is a potential serious incident...

Also - have you tried to close D5 on 747 lately? Don't need to be dumb to fall out! It's actually amazing we haven't had more incidents!

Suggest its time we all started to think about Occupational safety and not just about service and Air safety.... also sometimes there's a reason for things, so try asking someone in your Safety Dept...

[flybywire]

Originally Posted by geordi

Suggest its time we all started to think about Occupational safety and not just about service and Air safety.... also sometimes there's a reason for things, so try asking someone in your Safety Dept...

Very well said, I agree entirely and that's why I have been tempesting my superiors with incident reports, even for the smallest things. Sometimes people complain about "silly" regulations which are there for a reason and sure enough somebody had fought to obtain in the past.

When I eventually go back to work I will start pressurising them again: a wet galley because it's constantly raining inside it for 30 minutes thanks to our "if the stairs are there then the door must be open otherwise it can be closed" policy, at +2 degrees if you're lucky with gales making it even more enjoyable cannot be good or safe for crew and customers alike. Just wait till I get back....

[Rananim]

Deteriorating relations between flt crew and FA's is sad and a sign of the times.In the States,FA's have disproportionately powerful union representation which miffs the pilots and causes resentment.But hopefully we try to do the best we can to get along and get the job done.Additionally,our FA's are older and crankier(sexism/ageism I know but so true).
Its interesting how pilots and FA's interact differently according to their cultural/ethnic origins.In the EAST,the authority gradient is steep and a Singapore girl is not going to address the CAptain by anything other than "Captain".Its formal,polite,and massages the male ego but the downside is that it can create a barrier where the FA feels that she cannot communicate any concerns for fear of overstepping her position.She believes the Captain is always right and of course this is not always the case.
The informality that we get in the WEST creates a feeling of openness and transparency but it can also have a downside.FA's are not in command of the aircraft and there must be some sense of hierarchy and leadership when you operate a sophisticated piece of machinery across thousands of miles with people's lives at stake.The Purser is not actually in command of anything on board a commercial airliner.The FAR's are quite explicit about this.Only dual pilot incapacitation would leave the Purser in command and then only if there werent any dead-heading flt crew on board.
The ideal situation(call it CRM if you want) is when all crew members are open ,friendly and relaxed with each other whilst at the same time respecting the protocols that must exist for any crew to function effectively.
The second-best is the formal scenario where FA's always defer to the flt crew;far from ideal as it inhibits instinct and a willingness to speak up.But its better than scenario 3 which is by far the worst;the dreaded divide between flt crew and FA's brought on by managements open policy of "divide-and rule" and a feeling of mistrust and resentment between the 2 parties.I have seen this at work and its an awful atmosphere to work in.When a FA secretly hopes that the Captain of the flight makes a mistake so she can get a report in OR when a CAPTAIN dismisses or totally ignores the concerns of his crew;this is when you have a total breakdown of relations and its a sad sight to behold.
In my experience,only Southwest Airlines would qualify for scenario 1 for more than 95% of the time.Scenario 2 would account for most if not all of the Asian/Gulf carriers.And unfortunately,a lot of US/Euro airlines would fall into scenario 3 or only qualify for scenario 1 intermittently.Or am I being too pessimistic there?
The real question is where did we go wrong and how can we change things?

[flybywire]

Originally Posted by Rananim

The ideal situation(call it CRM if you want) is when all crew members are open ,friendly and relaxed with each other whilst at the same time respecting the protocols that must exist for any crew to function effectively.

I have to say I feel quite lucky as in my company and in my base this is the situation 99% of the time. We call Captain Lousie "Louise", FO Dave "Dave" and so on.
It works extremely well 99% of the times, never once I had a Captain here introducing him/herself as "Captain". While it used to happen in Italy, for example.

There's a SMALL % of times where it doesn't work and it usually is the individual's fault, and it usually goes much further than that. I have to say it only happened 3 or 4 times in during my time in the UK when a Main Crew (and an FO once) literally disappeared during a turnaround to go have a fag in the terminal or to buy duty free without asking either the Purser's or the Captain's permission. A friendly, informal environment Can only work if the roles AND rules of conduct are clearly set in every individual's mind. Follow the protocol, accept the different roles, respect your workmates and we can all be friends. All to the benefit of the crew and passengers alike!

FBW

[verticalhold]

Came back to this thread after a very recent experience which has caused me a great deal of concern and I would value cc opinions on it. I'm sure that what I experienced was very illegal, but I can't find a reference.

Positioning on a low cost no seat allocated flight. Checked in first so got the best boarding card there is for this firm. When I got on the aircraft I was comfortably esconced in row 1 right by the front door, stacks of leg room, window seat, good book, someone else doing the driving and pretty ladies to sell me coffee, bliss.

The care bears were loading a carry on pax. The lady concerned had a compound fracture of the left femur and was in plaster. Myself and the two other blokes in row one were asked to move so that the lady, her daughter and grand daughter could be put in row one.

What worried me was that the seat fit in this particular aircraft meant that the broken leg extended to part way across the forward door, and that although there were crew positioned there the child was an infant and would be incapable of operating the door.

I seem to remember from a very long time ago that class 1 emergency exits must not be blocked and should also only be occupied by able bodied pax. Can anyone confirm this for me. I have written expressing deep concern to the airline concerned but have not yet had a reply (actually from past experience with them I hold out no hope) The lady with the broken leg was in a great deal of discomfort and unfortunatley due to her size and injury found moving without assistance very difficult. Advice/flaming/ criticism gladly recieved.

VH

[sinala1]

Hi VerticalHold,

I am going to have to make a few presumptions to answer your question, so those presumptions will be that you were flying on either a B737 or A320 with no fwd bulkhead seperating seats 1ABC from the crew jumpseat and L1 door, and also will presume that you were sitting in 1A before being asked to move.

I flew in the UK Long Haul and currently fly for a short haul carrier in Australia. Both airlines (and all around the world, as far as I am aware) have regulations in place that state ONLY Able Bodied Pax should sit in any seats adjacent to an exit - so on the with my company on the B737-800 that is 1ABC and 14ABCDEF 15ABCDEF. 1DEF do not count as they are behind a bulkhead and not directly adjacent to an exit. There is also an age limit on people sitting in exit rows - I believe it is 15 years or older in Australia (subject to checking my manuals! )

If this situation occured on my flight, best possible scenario would be lady with injured leg sitting in 1D (extra leg room, aisle seat so she can move leg into/out of aisle as need be, close to toilet, close to galley so crew can assist etc - but NOT in an exit row) and travelling companions in 1E and 1F.

Sounds like some serious breaches of policy going on here, if I have made correct presumptions - and my apologies if I have made incorrect presumptions!

[Getoutofmygalley]

If the pax was flying easyJet, she would have been able to sit in 1E or 1F only on the front row and the child would have to have been in 1E or 1F as well as 1D (along with 1ABC) are regarded as ABP seats only.

Personally, with a femur in plaster I would have seated the lady in row 2 so that she could have had her leg up (provided seats were available). We have a rule at easyJet that pax with injuries where legs are in plaster might require the pax to pay for an extra seat (or 2) so that they can sit comfortably for the duration of the flight - this shouldn't be an issue as the pax would hopefully be able to claim the extra fares back on their travel insurance (assuming they bought some in the first place )

[verticalhold]

Sinala1;

You presume perfectly the A/C layout. Getoutofmygalley rules are sometimes bent in the interests of humanity. Unfortunately in this case I believe the CC were under pressure and did the best they could. Sadly in their hurry, late away despatch pressure etc they made a wrong move.

Had I been in the front seat of the AC and seen the condition of the passenger I might have refused to carry her. She was a very ill lady.

VH

[Getoutofmygalley]

Verticalhold, please check your pm's

[verticalhold]

Goomg;

Checked and responded. I did however forget to mention that the flight was full. Not a spare seat in the house!

VH