What rules to use??
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What rules to use??
I am hoping that someone could clarify some things for me!
If you have a bizjet registered in some nice little tax paradise such as Bermuda, The Caymans or Aruba and the above mentioned bizjet is used for "private"/corporate flying for some company that ownes the aircraft in question. What rules do you then operate under? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
If the aircraft is used mostly in Europe do you then operate under JAR-OPS 1 (although it's private flight) or do you follow every countries own airlaw? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> Do you mabey use the FAR's being that they are accepted (and used by) quite a few of the tax-havens where people normally register their aircraft?
What applies if you fly a N-registered aircraft around europe? What rules do you guys fly by over here??
One of the big question I have is what weather minimums to use and what alternate requirements to use!?!?
What to do?? I would really appreciate some input from all you guys out there operating the above mentioned airplanes! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Thanks,
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
If you have a bizjet registered in some nice little tax paradise such as Bermuda, The Caymans or Aruba and the above mentioned bizjet is used for "private"/corporate flying for some company that ownes the aircraft in question. What rules do you then operate under? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
If the aircraft is used mostly in Europe do you then operate under JAR-OPS 1 (although it's private flight) or do you follow every countries own airlaw? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> Do you mabey use the FAR's being that they are accepted (and used by) quite a few of the tax-havens where people normally register their aircraft?
What applies if you fly a N-registered aircraft around europe? What rules do you guys fly by over here??
One of the big question I have is what weather minimums to use and what alternate requirements to use!?!?
What to do?? I would really appreciate some input from all you guys out there operating the above mentioned airplanes! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Thanks,
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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For "N" registered aircraft:
Under FAR 91 (non-air carrier) see 91.703 (too lengthy to post here).
Under FAR 135 see 135.3 (also lengthy).
See ICAO Annex 2 (Rules of the Air). This can usually be found in Jeppesen in international versions.
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Under FAR 91 (non-air carrier) see 91.703 (too lengthy to post here).
Under FAR 135 see 135.3 (also lengthy).
See ICAO Annex 2 (Rules of the Air). This can usually be found in Jeppesen in international versions.
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Rules of the country of registration, period.. .However, if there are more restrictive rules regarding (for example, approach bans at selective airports) then follow these unless you want to find your a@@ in hot water.
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Bermuda and the Cayman Islands are overseas territories of the UK and the requirements that apply to their aircraft are similar to those of the UK. The Air Navigation (Overseas Territories) Order 2001 mirrors the UK Air Navigation Order except that the CAA is not the responsible authority. The Order can be found on line at:. .<a href="http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2001/20012128.htm" target="_blank">http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2001/20012128.htm</a>
This situation appears to be under review. The Department of the Transport websit contains a copy of the report of the ICAO audit of the UK which contains the following statement: "An institutional study will be commissioned by Her Majesty's Government (HMG) by 31 March 2001 to review the entire system of safety oversight of, and in, its Overseas Territories. The objective of the study is to recommend to the Government the most appropriate system to ensure that the UK's international obligations under the Chicago Convention can be met and maintained on a continuing basis. Part of the study will consider the appropriate regulatory structure and its relationship with the UK regulatory system."
This situation appears to be under review. The Department of the Transport websit contains a copy of the report of the ICAO audit of the UK which contains the following statement: "An institutional study will be commissioned by Her Majesty's Government (HMG) by 31 March 2001 to review the entire system of safety oversight of, and in, its Overseas Territories. The objective of the study is to recommend to the Government the most appropriate system to ensure that the UK's international obligations under the Chicago Convention can be met and maintained on a continuing basis. Part of the study will consider the appropriate regulatory structure and its relationship with the UK regulatory system."
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Kagamuga,. .Surprised at my posting?? Why?? Just wanted to get someone elses input. I am also aware of what the books say but as you might know rules are interpreted differently depending on who reads them and when that person reads them.
Everyone:. .So now I know what rules are in effect in Bermuda and the Caymans. What about Aruba? Isn't that a Dutch "overseas territory"? Does the Dutch airlaw apply to an aircraft registered there or do they have their own rules?
What about JAR-OPS 1. It states that:
"JAR-OPS Part 1 prescribes requirements applicable to the operation of any civil airplane for the purpose of commercial air transportation by any operator whose principal place of business is in a JAA Member State."
That then must mean that an aircraft that operates commercially from a european base must comply with JAR-OPS 1 regardless of its registry!? I understand that "principal place of business" very well could mean a postal box in Bermuda (if only refering to an "office") but if the aircraft is clearly based in europe what then? Would that not be the actual "principal place of business"??? . . <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Scenario: . .We are flying P4-ABC (Aruba) from Madrid to London. What rules do we use to determine if we need an alternate airport and which ones we can use (wx-wise)??? Aruban local rules (whatever they might be), FAR's, JAR's, or local Spanish rules (being that the flight originates from there) or local English non-public transport rules (since that is our detination)? When we get to London, what wx-minimus do we use? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Rules are fun to play with aren't they!?
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Once again, I appreciate any and all inputs and info! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Will
Everyone:. .So now I know what rules are in effect in Bermuda and the Caymans. What about Aruba? Isn't that a Dutch "overseas territory"? Does the Dutch airlaw apply to an aircraft registered there or do they have their own rules?
What about JAR-OPS 1. It states that:
"JAR-OPS Part 1 prescribes requirements applicable to the operation of any civil airplane for the purpose of commercial air transportation by any operator whose principal place of business is in a JAA Member State."
That then must mean that an aircraft that operates commercially from a european base must comply with JAR-OPS 1 regardless of its registry!? I understand that "principal place of business" very well could mean a postal box in Bermuda (if only refering to an "office") but if the aircraft is clearly based in europe what then? Would that not be the actual "principal place of business"??? . . <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Scenario: . .We are flying P4-ABC (Aruba) from Madrid to London. What rules do we use to determine if we need an alternate airport and which ones we can use (wx-wise)??? Aruban local rules (whatever they might be), FAR's, JAR's, or local Spanish rules (being that the flight originates from there) or local English non-public transport rules (since that is our detination)? When we get to London, what wx-minimus do we use? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Rules are fun to play with aren't they!?
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Once again, I appreciate any and all inputs and info! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Will
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Excellent post Will and for the first time in ages it's a distinct pleasure to agree with 411A - that's the way I see the rules - utilize the regulations as promulgated by the licensing authority but if the country you're opearting in has more restrictive criteria you'd be well advised to adide by them. For example, the basic Part 91 (as I see it) has no specific reference to take-off mimimum RVR's but if you were to wizz off the runway and clobber the G/S antenna (or even a light) in zero-zero you'd be in a bit of trouble.
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4HolerPoler:
Thank for the positive comment <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> !! Now, I am NOT picking but I must ask! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
You said: "utilize the regulations as promulgated by the licensing authority"
Now, is that the authority that issued my license or the authority that registered the aircraft. The reason for asking is that it looks like the other guy will have a different certificate (although we would both have the same validation). This then would mean that we are operating under different set of rules in the same airplane!?
Once again, not picking just trying to get total clarity in this!
Thanks,
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Thank for the positive comment <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> !! Now, I am NOT picking but I must ask! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
You said: "utilize the regulations as promulgated by the licensing authority"
Now, is that the authority that issued my license or the authority that registered the aircraft. The reason for asking is that it looks like the other guy will have a different certificate (although we would both have the same validation). This then would mean that we are operating under different set of rules in the same airplane!?
Once again, not picking just trying to get total clarity in this!
Thanks,
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Will Rogers---. .Let's look at it from a slightly different perspective.
If P4-ABC, flown by Aruban licensed pilots, has been leased to a Spanish aircarrier for that MAD-LHR flight, the rules of the country of the operator (Spain) would be used. This would apply to duty time limitations for the pilots as well. However, should Aruban regulations be more restrictive (not likely) then these would apply.
A bit like the airline Chief Pilot, must serve two masters (pilots who want MORE and management who wants LESS...payment anyway, not duty time).
If it is a private flight, and the pilots are operating with a validation (P4), then the Aruban regulations would be followed, regardless of the pilots original license (however it must remain valid for the validation to remain valid, at least for the medical requirements).
[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: 411A ]</p>
If P4-ABC, flown by Aruban licensed pilots, has been leased to a Spanish aircarrier for that MAD-LHR flight, the rules of the country of the operator (Spain) would be used. This would apply to duty time limitations for the pilots as well. However, should Aruban regulations be more restrictive (not likely) then these would apply.
A bit like the airline Chief Pilot, must serve two masters (pilots who want MORE and management who wants LESS...payment anyway, not duty time).
If it is a private flight, and the pilots are operating with a validation (P4), then the Aruban regulations would be followed, regardless of the pilots original license (however it must remain valid for the validation to remain valid, at least for the medical requirements).
[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: 411A ]</p>
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411A,
Ok! I see your point!
Now. If the pilots flying P4-ABC hold JAR-FCL or FAA certificates and an Aruban validation would they not then have to obey by either the regulations of the JAR country the license was issued in (for private flight), JAR-OPS 1 (commercial flight) or with the FAR's(91 or 135 as appropriate)?
My point being that even if the aircraft is registered somewhere where the rules may leave a lot to be desired a JAR-FCL licensed pilot couldn't do anything he isn't allowed to do under the rules of his "JAR country" now could he?
And speaking of Aruban rules!? What rules are they using over there??? Can they be found on the internet?
Looks like I'm just gonna keep this one going and going and going...
Thank for your replies ya'll!!!
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Ok! I see your point!
Now. If the pilots flying P4-ABC hold JAR-FCL or FAA certificates and an Aruban validation would they not then have to obey by either the regulations of the JAR country the license was issued in (for private flight), JAR-OPS 1 (commercial flight) or with the FAR's(91 or 135 as appropriate)?
My point being that even if the aircraft is registered somewhere where the rules may leave a lot to be desired a JAR-FCL licensed pilot couldn't do anything he isn't allowed to do under the rules of his "JAR country" now could he?
And speaking of Aruban rules!? What rules are they using over there??? Can they be found on the internet?
Looks like I'm just gonna keep this one going and going and going...
Thank for your replies ya'll!!!
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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The operational requirements are one thing...Have you guys ever considered the financial consequences?
Even though you might be flying for private purposes - a non EU registered aircraft flying what is effectively cabotage in Europe - then Customs and Excise might be looking to impound your airplane!
Import Duties / VAT etc....Its a minefield!
Even though you might be flying for private purposes - a non EU registered aircraft flying what is effectively cabotage in Europe - then Customs and Excise might be looking to impound your airplane!
Import Duties / VAT etc....Its a minefield!
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Exclusive mandate:
You probably have a point but that's not my hedache. All I'm woried about is what rules I am supposed to fly under. The rest I leave to the people that know about that kind of stuff!! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Thanks anyway!
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
You probably have a point but that's not my hedache. All I'm woried about is what rules I am supposed to fly under. The rest I leave to the people that know about that kind of stuff!! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Thanks anyway!
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Will Rogers, . .I would have thought that both pilots must have an Aruban validation to fly the aircraft, therefore both of them must fly the aircraft as per the regulations issued by Aruba.
We operate "HZ" registered aircraft under the equivalent of FAR91, 121 and 135 depending on the day, NONE of our pilots hold licences earned in the country of registration. They do however hold the appropriate FAA licence with a validation from the country of registration.. . . .If in the event of an accident, they are accountable to the country of registration followed by the country where the accident took place. The FAA as the original licence issuer doesn’t come into this at all.. . . .You wouldn’t happen to be operating that sparkling BBJ that was parked out at Jet Aviation Jeddah last week?
Cheers.
Mutt.
[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: mutt ]</p>
We operate "HZ" registered aircraft under the equivalent of FAR91, 121 and 135 depending on the day, NONE of our pilots hold licences earned in the country of registration. They do however hold the appropriate FAA licence with a validation from the country of registration.. . . .If in the event of an accident, they are accountable to the country of registration followed by the country where the accident took place. The FAA as the original licence issuer doesn’t come into this at all.. . . .You wouldn’t happen to be operating that sparkling BBJ that was parked out at Jet Aviation Jeddah last week?
Cheers.
Mutt.
[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: mutt ]</p>
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Mutt,
Nope sorry to say (really sorry actually) that I'm not in a BBJ, yet! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
We also will hold the appropriate license-validations when it comes time to go fly.
Where do you guys operate the aircraft? Europe, Middle East, U.S. the world?? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Nope sorry to say (really sorry actually) that I'm not in a BBJ, yet! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
We also will hold the appropriate license-validations when it comes time to go fly.
Where do you guys operate the aircraft? Europe, Middle East, U.S. the world?? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Make sense to me you have to adapt to the country you are visiting with your A/C. .I am thinking of the quadrantal FL rules in UK, for example.. .Imagine yourself, driving from France to UK. Will you keep driving on the right side of the road because your license plate is french ?
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PorcoRossa,
Your idea is fine for a light aircraft with limited range, but some of these guys are flying longhaul airliners in the corporate world.
While there is an international standard for Air Traffic Control procedures, there are momumental differences in aviation law and regulations from country to country.
It is not possible for an FAA licenced crewmember flying an N registered aircraft to follow JAA regulations.
Will Rodgers, "The World".
Mutt. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Your idea is fine for a light aircraft with limited range, but some of these guys are flying longhaul airliners in the corporate world.
While there is an international standard for Air Traffic Control procedures, there are momumental differences in aviation law and regulations from country to country.
It is not possible for an FAA licenced crewmember flying an N registered aircraft to follow JAA regulations.
Will Rodgers, "The World".
Mutt. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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That's kinda my point as well. I'm sorry to say but it is not possible to know every countries local rule book. I know we might be supposed to but come on....
Jeppesen is a big help in all this since they publish most of the differences from ICAO Annex 2 but still!?
Anyone else have practical experiences operating privately in europe with a "strangely" registered aircraft?? Any news on what rules they would use in Aruba??
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Jeppesen is a big help in all this since they publish most of the differences from ICAO Annex 2 but still!?
Anyone else have practical experiences operating privately in europe with a "strangely" registered aircraft?? Any news on what rules they would use in Aruba??
Will <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Exclusive Mandate!. .. .I just read an article in Aviation International News regarding the issue you where talking about. . .. .We meet the requirements for the waiver under those rules so I belive that we will be ok!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Thanks for the heads up though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Will
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The way I have always operated internationaly is: . .1. Fly according to the rules of the country of registry.. .2. However, if the airspace I am in has more restrictive rules than that of the country of registry, then adbide the more restrictive rules.. .. .Am I wrong with this method, I would like to know?. .. .Best regards,. .. .G3
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The rules for Aruba may be obtained by requesting a copy of the A.I.P. from their CAA.. .. .As far as operations are concerned, operating as suggested by G3 should keep you out of trouble.
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BGN,. .. .I appreciate the info. You wouldn't happend to have any contact information for the Arubans would you?. .. .Will <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />