Tim McLelland

Thanks for the very full reply - good to finally be getting down to some serious discussion at last!

Press office - well I would agree that he will only be as good as the information he's given, but I hope that doesn't mean that he's going to simply act as a "mouthpiece" for the rest of the team. Heaven-forbid that the management found yet another excuse to avoid actually communicating with anyone! Does this also mean that if/when he is approched with new ideas to help TVOC, the offers won't simply be ignored now? I very much hope so. However, my main worry is that I haven't seen the new "press office" translate into any press coverage anywhere. I hope that whoever the guy is, he understands that a press officer has to be proactive not merely reactive.

Forum - Oh wel 'nuff said. I agree that the forum serves a useful purpose in enabling supporters to talk to each other but in a wider sense, I doubt if it's had any effect on the amount of money going into the programme. In fact I worry slightly that reading endless squabbles over nothing actually deters people from making dontaions!

Progress - I'm not quite so convinced that everything's fine. I think Dr.Pleming has made it very clear that there's a serious shortfall of money still outstanding so unless this money looks like being found (and I assume that it doesn't look like being found?) then I don't see much to be enthusiastic about? Fundamentally, no matter what changes might or might not be made to TVOC, if ther money still isn't there, it's a waste of time.

HLF - Well, as I've said in previous posts, HLF is the only obvious way in which longer-term funding for the aircraft could be secured. As you say, the HLF involvement appears to be "done and dusted" which seems - to put it mildly - completely crazy! Surely, if TVOC are doing anything worthwhile to seriously find funding, then they should be putting a lot of effort into trying to persuade HLF to provide it. I've already explained why, and if they haven't done that, then surely it's time that someone was asking them why not?

Oh well, the saga continues...

Dis Gruntled

I have not posted for a while but have been keeping an eye on things and too tell you the truth am amazed it is this close too collapse and still people are backing the management (sorry SM). Yes Rusty was a complete control freak but was certainley not just her with an air of arrogance and a self centred approach too the project, and those people are still there. I feel really sorry for the volunteers I know many of them travelled miles a few times a week and were owned hundreds of pounds in petrol money while the management swanned about in the tri-becas at the weekend wasting precious money. As for Pleming this is a man who said that he never looks at forums as they are a waste of time maybe its time you changed your tune Bob and really quickly because you have f****d up big time. These are the people who with enough belief could save your sorry ass. If it does all go pear shaped then I hope the management could be held responsible, the mismangement, deciept and lies on all levels beggars belief. How you can sell things on ebay with a certificate of authenticity too say its from 558 when its not, how you can take a mans half million pounds he has given to save the vulcan and then the first thing you do is buy half a dozen brand new lap tops for the management, how you can lie to the seat fitting team that Martin Baker said the seats were safe too fit and put engineers and flight crews lives at risk, all of this and so much more makes me sick. I know this will probably be deleted in 30 seconds flat, but I feel so much better now. DG

andrewmcharlton

Well said DG.

It seems the truth will out eventually. I know Dr P probably isn't a reader of the forums as last year, whenever it was, I emailed him and he called me back and we chatted for an hour or so. I know he does care passionately about the project but I am not persuaded he is the right man to be a leader of the project. That's not a personal attack by the way simply a realistic observation based on many years in business.

HLF seem to be out of the frame, presumeably on the basis that money has been spent and they haven't a major ongoing role so it seems it is down to donors / supporters as the last stakeholders.

Splash Down

My rudimentary understanding of HLF funding:

Any group/charity/organisation that qualifies for HLF backing do so on the understanding that it’s a ONE OFF payment and not a source of regular funding/income.

Basically they will give you the money to get your project off the ground but will NOT provide the finances to keep operating on a weekly/monthly/yearly basis.

Why should HLF bail out 558.

As has been said they have funded other projects that have gone tits up why should 558 be any different she’ll fly again just you watch.

Brad

andrewmcharlton

I'm not sure anyone is actually suggesting an HLF bail out.

The question is do they have any continuing oversight and should TVOC make any second approach formally, even if as you say HLF decide not to oblige.

Tim McLelland

Why should HLF bail out 558

I've already explained previously. Surely, having donated a hefty amount of cash to the project, it will be recognised as having been spent for nothing if the aircraft doesn't fly again (or doesn't fly for more than a few weeks). The HLF donation will be seen (quite rightly) as a waste of Lottery buyer's money.

Clearly, HLF have a golden opportunity to preserve the value of their original donation by giving a bit more cash - peanuts as far as their budgets are concerned, but it would be enough to ensure that the money they have already spent has been worthwhile. Anyone can see the logic of this argument?

It's easy to say that HLF have rules about one-off donations, rules about this or that, but it doesn't matter. The rules are meaningless as they're self-imposed and can be changed as quickly as they were implemented in the first place. Ultimately, HLF money is our money and we have a perfect right to see it spent as we see fit. If HLF have any objections to spending a bit more on 558 then let's hear what their reasons are. If the reasons aren't plausible (particularly if they use their own self-imposed rules to wriggle-out) then it's up to us to go to the Government ministers responsible, as they obviously have the power to dictate what HLF does or doesn't do. Simply rolling-over and taking no for an answer is precisely the sort of attitude that public bodies love.

However, the important point to remember is that (according to HLF's letter to Andrew) they haven't even been asked! So, while Pleming keeps whining about last chances, and begging school kids to dig into their pocket money (presumably to finance another laptop or two), he has failed to pursue the most obvious means of securing finance for the aircraft. It's absolutely ludicrous! What is his reason for not approaching HLF? Presumably he must either think that they would say no (but why didn't he at least ask and fight the decision - that's his job isn't it?), or he simply couldn't be bothered to find out. They can be the only possible reasons, unless he specifically doesn't want to have HLF involved again - why would that be? Because TVOC haven't met the terms of the original donation?

Sorry, but this saga is just completely ridiculous. We've listened to the garbage about no sponsors appearing (even though Pleming intimated that they were figuratively queueing-up to come forward) and how we're expected to dig into our pockets, as if having a "whip-round" is ever going to solve the problem. And yet, the one obvious source of reliable money for the aircraft hasn't even been pursued... and people wonder why I think TVOC's management are a joke?!

saracenman

just to clarify what i meant by "done and dusted" - the HLF grant, in simple terms, was given for 558's restoration to flight As is obvious, that has been done. The fact that the grant was secured predominantly on the basis of TVOC's Education Programme, and whether that part of the deal has been fulfilled adequately seems to me to be something of a moot point. In my own opinion, the Education Programme has, to date, been a joke - little more than ticking HLF's box.

I have personally been banging on about it being the very core of TVOC's efforts, to significantly boost support across the board. I won't say that I've been a lone voice on this, but until very recently no-one at Brunty seemed to 'get it'

whether part of the HLF's remit is to smack TVOC's wrists for not dealing with the education, i really don't know - but i very much doubt it. I'm pretty certain though, that for HLF to come to the rescue now would require a new application, which would take far longer to achieve that we've realistically got! Even then, there's no guarantee of success anyway.

Not sure what you meant Tim about the forum's value; it could be read either way. Even so, we as a group (the forum members) have achieved incredible success, particularly saving the day back in February 2008 when the project was near collapse. Not that it seemed fully appreciated at the time by the management, but without us 558 would never have had a second test flight!

DG - no need to apologise! I completely agree, particularly with respect to Dr. Pleming - the buck stops with him and should never have allowed certain people to screw things up for so long. It was clear to me that whatever management structure was supposed to be in place back then was an absolute joke - a ship adrift in rough seas with no-one at the helm. Certainly Dr. P is still there, but my understanding of the new management structure is such that TVOC are now more than capable of running things in the way that they should have been long ago, irrespective of Dr. P The disorganisation was almost institutional, with many of TVOC believing their own hype - the main protagonist in this respect was Rusty, in my opinion. Now that she has gone, killing off the rest of the rot will be somewhat simpler i feel.

I'm not trying to say that all is fantastic at Brunty, as there is a lot more to be done yet, but the main difference now is that the shortcomings have finally been admitted (it used to be "we're wonderful - go away!") and that things are already being done to address the problems.

a long way to go, but all the right noises seem to be coming from all the right places - at long last!

sm

Tim McLelland

I hope you're right, but regardless of whatever "noises" TVOC now make, would we be correct in assuming that no new sources of money have been found? If so, I can only refer back to the contents of my previous post - TVOC's activities and attitude (be it good or bad) is of no significance if no money has been found. That's the key point that we need to be addressing, surely, and that's why I keep banging-on about HLF. Do you think TVOC have approached HLF since Andrew's letter, or do you think they ever will? If not, do you agree that they're missing the only plausible chance (and I accept it is a chance - but easily the best one) of finding the money that's needed?

saracenman

again, i can't answer definitively in an official capacity but i do know that the main efforts at present are one step 'before' any new source of money; as we all know, TVOC are in debt and i know that Michael Trotter has moved mountains to keep the creditors 'sweet' - aka keeping the wolf from the door.

to owe someone a lot of money and then be able to bang on their door and encourage them to become a supporter of the very cause that has cost them money is astonishing!

I'm sure many of you know that I've been banging on about cost cutting measures for months - what's the point in raising extra income if it's simply haemorrhaging from every pore. From what i know, this is in hand - just a shame that it wasn't dealt with long ago!

but that's the story of this whole project really isnt it!

sm

Tim McLelland

Indeed, if you go back over past threads, I've done my fair share of carping about that too! I know from the people who have told me in confidence that a huge amount of cash has been wasted over the years, and that doesn't even include more well-known sagas like the cost of hangarage (which might well have still been free of charge had it not been for one person), and so on.

The way that so many people have been figuratively kissing TVOC's proverbial butt has been almost sickening at times. Sure, they got the aircraft back into the air but so what? Anybody could have done the same management and PR job, and probably more effectively and less expensively. It's time that people accepted this and stopped treating TVOC (and by that I mean the management - not the engineers and the people who do the real work) as if they're somehow beyond reproach. They've spent our money, and lots of it.

Splash Down

Thought HLF said that they will not pay for an aircraft to fly, but can pay for its restoration to flight, if HLF pay more money out to 558 then they should have bailed out every other scheme they funded and then went tits up.

You cant have one rule for one and one rule for another.

Whats more important paying for one aircraft (of which a dozen of the same type are preserved on the ground) to fly or saving the last of the great tea clippers or preserving a great building that has much more significant heritage value to the nation?

Sorry but 558 would ot get my vote, I cant see her being ground after one poor season she will fly again mark my words.

Tim McLelland

Splashdown - I don't disagree with any of your comments but at the same time, you must be able to see that a contrary position is just as valid?

It's really about how you perceive the HLF payments. If you regard a further payment as "bailing out" that's one thing, whereas "making additional expenditure in order to ensure that the first payment wasn't entirely wasted", is another thing.

As for having one rule for one thing and another for another, simple answer is that you can have any rules you like! As I've said, it's our money, and HLF might think it's acceptable to hide behind self-imposed rules, but rules can be changed when necessary - that's what our MP's are for. But we're assuming we know what HLF's position is - seems they've never even been asked!

And as for judging whether 558 is more or less significant than any other artefact, well obviously it's subjective and it's irrelevant. Point is, the money needed is nothing as far as HLF is concerned so surely it's a simple case of asking whether they think it's acceptable to throw-away money, or simply pay a bit more to justify the first payment?

Cornerstone, I think "fraud" would be pushing it! It's not about fraud, it's about wasting huge sums of money and "milking" a project for money which could have gone on more important things. It's not illegal but in view of the nature of the project, I think it's just as objectionable.

saracenman

funnily enough, despite respecting and agreeing with everything that the likes of DG and brunty558 have said, i still find it difficult to believe that there has been any milking/wastage/diversion of funding undertaken intentionally

whilst I'm not Dr. P's greatest fan, you can't ignore that it was he that got the ball rolling in the first place with nothing in the bank and very little else. similarly, the whole team certainly have put in the hours etc - some more than others - i don't question any of TVOC's employees' dedication, intentions or motives at all, just their managerial acumen!

what i personally think happened is that (probably when the HLF money came in) the whole project out-grew the abilities of those managers in place at the time. in the bear-pit that is business and commerce, failing to realise one's own limitations is a fundamental mistake - simply giving a position to someone who'd previously been doing it for free is not the way to employ the most efficient workforce. TVOC's employment decisions have looked somewhat nepotistic to say the least!

i also see TVOC as having tried very hard to be the truly modern and professional streamlined outfit that they realised that they needed to be to get 558 back in the air again; the trouble was that it was a very flimsy veneer of professionalism stretched thinly over a very amateur core. again, by the nature of the limited funds etc, no-one could expect TVOC to have hired the likes of Gerry Robinson - you can't lead a champagne lifestyle on a beer budget; but again that is precisely where limitations have to realised from day one.

sadly sponsors are rather good at seeing through such thin veneers. sure, the 'credit crunch' wasn't exactly helpful, but have we seen a lack of adverts on TV? is there suddenly a swathe of corporate sponsors tearing up their agreements with football clubs and such like? again, a very convenient hook upon which TVOC could hang their shortcomings without appreciating the core problems

unfortunately TVOC very evidently ignored and wasted so many 'human assets' that were at their disposal - a massive mistake in my opinion as there were so many skilled people who offered their services and never even got a reply. it's little wonder that a general attitude existed among supporters that TVOC saw 558 as their aeroplane - that is until the coffers ran dry, at which point the "peoples' aeroplane" line was again trotted out!

lastly, due to the passion for 558 of a vast number of people (OEMS, contractors, creditors, supporters etc) TVOC management bathed in the glory of so many unsung people and organisations, without whom 558 would still be a box of bits on a hangar floor. in short, they believed their own hype and genuinely couldn't understand why anyone could have anything bad to say about them; "we made the Vulcan fly therefore we are better than sliced bread"

thankfully, that is in the past - largely. certainly some of the old team remain, but I'm sure that the recent changes will either force those to 'step up to the plate' or they will simply be left behind. there are two or three employees at Brunty that have been very much in the background for a long time; they were always kept firmly under the iron fist that was Rusty, but i know that they always 'got it' even if she didn't. I'd put money on them now coming forward and being allowed to shine for the first time.

in a recent conversation with one of the management team (since the re-org at Brunty) i heard a very encouraging comment - "the problem has been that everyone wanted to be the one single person that saved 558; it can't work like that, it's a team effort" - hit the nail on the head there me thinks - at last, someone is capable of looking in the proverbial mirror without ignoring the warts and boils!

as I've said before, all good and encouraging noises which would've been nice to hear some months ago, but that was then and this is now - better late than never. skin of teeth maybe, but this is encouraging - stormy seas still, but no longer is the pilot-less ship adrift.

sm

Delta15

SM
I have not been around for very long but I think you make some very good points ,

SM Quote...should never have allowed certain people to screw things up for so long.

Care to name names?

SM Quote... Even so, we as a group (the forum members) have achieved incredible success, particularly saving the day back in February 2008 when the project was near collapse. Not that it seemed fully appreciated at the time by the management, but without us 558 would never have had a second test flight!

As I say I haven't been around long, what happened in Feb 2008??

SM Quote... Certainly Dr. P is still there, but my understanding of the new management structure is such that TVOC are now more than capable of running things in the way that they should have been long ago, irrespective of Dr. P

Can you tell us what/who is the "New Management Structure" composed of ?


SM Quote...killing off the rest of the rot will be somewhat simpler i feel.

To whome do you refer here??

Tim McLelland

find it difficult to believe that there has been any milking/wastage/diversion of funding undertaken intentionally

I don't find it difficult at all when people on the team have told me of specific cases where lots of money (and I mean thousands, not a few bob) has been wasted on "expenses" and on costs which could have been avoided if certain individuals hadn't acted irresponsibly.

As for the notion that Pleming deserves credit for "getting the ball rolling" I just don't see how. Big deal - there must be countless people (particularly former RAF Vulcan people) who could have done the job, and probably done it more successfully and much less expensively - probably for free in fact. Are we really buying into the notion that managing the restoration and operation of one aircraft requires a salaried full-time position? What rubbish! Likewise I don't see how getting an HLF grant, and a gratuitous donation from a well-wisher is a great achievement at all. It's hardly ground-breaking stuff, is it?

But it's pointless dwelling of the way the project has been handled. It's what happens now that worries me. Didn't Pleming say that unless the latest pile of dosh dropped on his desk by the end of this week, that would be the end of it? Or was this just another of his regular "last chance" announcements?

Will TVOC try and go back to HLF and seek their support? I suspect not. If they don't though, I fail to see what other options they have. Can anybody seriously think of one? Seriously? No, me neither.

One other thought - when you dig through the whole TVOC set-up, who, precisely, actually owns the aircraft now? I think that might be a fundamental point which ought to be established.

Tim McLelland

Incidentally Saracen, regarding the whole sponsorship saga, my view is that the whole notion of gaining major sponsorship was a non-starter right from the beginning. I know Pleming insisted it could (and would) happen but his pronouncements have been seen to be worthless. I don't buy the notion that sponsors were ever lining-up to finance the aircraft. The credit crunch is merely a convenient excuse.

I accept that donations (and major ones) were always a possibility but sponsorship? Nope. It's not about recognising TVOC's professionalism (or lack of it), it's about recognising a valuable sponsorship asset. The Vulcan never was one, simple as that. It's fine for plane spotters to get excited about seeing 558 at an air show but a major company couldn't possibly care less. Why would they have the slightest interest in promoting their company to an air show audience? More to the point, how would a company get any return on their investment at all? They can't (thank heavens) paint their company colours on the aircraft, so what can they expect in return for their money? A "sponsored by..." comment from Sean Maffet over an air show PA system? Big deal! The whole idea is ludicrous.

There was always the hope that some big players might finance the aircraft as a one-off goodwill donation - one person did of course. But it's pretty clear that there ain't any more on the horizon. This is why I keep banging-on about HLF. What other straw is there to cling to? Surely, nobody seriously believes that individual donations from enthusiasts is going to keep the aircraft flying?

Blacksheep

Well, since you ask, yes there is.

andrewmcharlton

Saracenman, I think you're very close to hitting the nail on the head.

Tim, I klnow you've got the bit between your teeth and fair enough, but I don't seriously think anyone has deliberately wasted money. You might very well have a fundemental disagreement over how it was spent etc and justifiably object to their spending on cetain people or items but thats very like the "F" word mentioned a few posts ago to suggest it was deliberately misspent.

Anyhoo, isn't the gist of the last few excellent posts that leadership has been lacking and it would be good to know how / if it has really changed and is it too late. On the basis Dr P was good enough to speak to me once before, maybe I should write to him again and see if the answers vary and hear it from the horses mouth rather than all this supposition unless someone else wishes to. Any better ideas?

saracenman

Naming names
where appropriate i have done so, where inappropriate i have omitted names - intentionally.

February 2008
a public announcement made by the VTST Chairman Keith Mans that if adequate funding was not found by the 31st March 2008, the project would be wound up. it was nothing more than a statement; no plea for we club/forum members to actually do anything other than donate. a few of us put some considerable time into a hugely successful publicity campaign regarding 558's plight (in particular an email campaign which was a forum incentive) in less than three weeks, the funds were found, club membership doubled (something which has not occurred since), fantastic press coverage and even a Parliamentary Early Day Motion. we unquestionably saved 558 at that time and enabled the test flight programme to proceed.

Structure
again, I'm not in any official capacity to give a full flow-diagram of the 'new-look' TVOC but i am aware that the whole project has been compartmentalised into three specific areas, with a clearly defined 'line of command' for each.

whereas before, the stock answer to a problem was usually "well if i had been aware then i would've done something about it" - no more! everyone knows what their defined role is, who reports to them etc etc - just like any other organisation

Other
Tim McLelland - i too have spoken to many people involved directly with 558 and i do agree that vast amounts have been wasted. this however does not equate to an institutionalised attitude of "wow, this Vulcan project is a fab opportunity to line my own pockets and deceive the public!"

i struggle to think of one single TVOC employee who had a thought like that! ineptitude, inefficiency and poor management are a far cry from criminal behaviour!

i agree about the sponsorship problems - the fact is that there was never really anything that they would get for their money. i think that sponsorship will come, once the whole project is given a proper focus, and that they can be seen to be a properly organised and managed organisation.

Tim McLelland - there's a gulf of difference between those that can do something and those that actually get down and do it! Dr. P did start the ball rolling and achieved something quite remarkable in that, in a sea of people who said that the CAA would never allow a complex ex-mil jet to fly in civvy hands, looked at the facts and said "well there's nowhere that says it can't be done!" Long before any restoration started, Dr P managed to gather the required support from OEMS etc - not an inconsiderable achievement when you realise the complexity of what was involved.

i have a huge respect for what he achieved in that respect but i seriously question his abilities as a manager and project-leader

Blacksheep - point taken! i don't follow football so it was probably not the best analogy, but I'm sure you take my point anyway!

sm

Tim McLelland

I struggle to think of one single TVOC employee who had a thought like that!

Well, for example, a one-day business trip (in the UK) equating to expenses of £7,000? Hmmm...


Anyway, Andrew, go for it! Would be fascinating to see what response you get (if any).